Essence reduction calculation, deltaware + bicompatibility trait +cyberware suite Options

[Phelan Patrick]

Hi there.

Just cameback to SR this month. Used to play it back in the 90's. So please bear with my noob-iness.


how do you compute essence reduction if a character has biocompatibility trait and purchasing delta grade cyberware suite?

is it

basic * .5(delta) * .9 (cyberware suite modifier) * .9 (biocompatibility) * , lets say the combined cyberware would have a basic cost of 3 essence, so that would end up as 3 * .5 * .9 *.9 = 1.219 essence

or

Basic * [.5(delta) - .1(sybersuite modifier) - .1(biocomp)] so the above example would compute as 3 * [.5 - .1 - .1] = .9 essence

thanks for the help in advance

[the_real_elwood]

I always interpreted the rules as the modifiers are multipliers that you use on the base essence cost of the cyberware, so essence would be calculated using your first example. I do know that a lot of people houserule the essence calculation to behave like your second example to cut players a break on essence costs for cyberware.

[Miles]

It's cumulative from the base price, so, 10%+10%+50%= 70% discount of base essence cost.

Also, as Augmentation states, a cyberware suite should be designed "with potential consumers in mind, not to the runner's needs". Since its already deltaware, I would highly doubt any cyberware suites would be available (maybe some sort of "government super soldier" setup, with crazy high Availability). However, YMMV, it's your game.

Miles

[Muspellsheimr]

The second example (cumulative, as Miles puts it) is the official / correct method.

The first example, that Elwood agrees with, is incorrect.


You can find the official ruling on these forums if desired - I am to lazy to look it up for you.

[Phelan Patrick]

second process it is then... thanks for the replies

[Werewindlefr]

Since its already deltaware, I would highly doubt any cyberware suites would be available (maybe some sort of "government super soldier" setup, with crazy high Availability).

In which case he is unlikely to *buy* it anyways; it's more a reward (for having helped the corp in seriously crazy ways) or an investment (don't think about double-crossing them).

[Ol' Scratch]

I've always hated how they write the rules so you have to use a decimal instead of just listing it as a flat-out percentage. Percentages are far more intuitive to most people. Which is why stores broadcast their sales as "10% off everything!" instead of "everything times .9!"

[the_real_elwood]

The second example (cumulative, as Miles puts it) is the official / correct method.

The first example, that Elwood agrees with, is incorrect.


You can find the official ruling on these forums if desired - I am to lazy to look it up for you.

Ah, so were the rules clarified by one of the devs on the forums? Because everything in the books is kind of ambiguous. Not that I'm complaining, because I like the other way better. Anything that allows me to cram more cyberware in.

[Falconer]

Very simple way... look in the errata or in the reprinted augmentation.

Under cyberware suites calculate the essence cost for the alpha grade suit (20% and 10% reduction)... you'll find w/ the errata and in the reprint they're at 30% discount by the math.


Personally I think just multiplying by .8 & .9 is more elegant as it puts in place a stacking penalty. And w/ future changes no one can concievably get 0 essence loss from stacking up a 100% essence reduction. But they didn't do it that way. (stacking penalty helps keep things balanced by discouraging overspecialization IMO).

Delta + adapsin + compatibility + suite... == 20% essence cost... multipled though (36.45%).
Hehe... first part is almost enough to consider MbW3 at a mere 1 essence.

[Mäx]

Very simple way... look in the errata or in the reprinted augmentation.

Sadly that errata is still to be relesed.

[Werewindlefr]

Hehe... first part is almost enough to consider MbW3 at a mere 1 essence.

1 essence, plus character creation stuff, plus needing someone to design the suite (a suite cannot have one item: it doesn't reduce essence magically, it just integrates several items. That means logically the second item must cost at least .5 essence, which is what the 10% on the MBW3 amounts to.), and enough money to buy a small corp or your own outfit.

We're talking super-SOTA stuff here, I wouldn't have a corp sell it under, what, 20-30 millions.

[HappyDaze]

1 essence, plus character creation stuff, plus needing someone to design the suite (a suite cannot have one item: it doesn't reduce essence magically, it just integrates several items. That means logically the second item must cost at least .5 essence, which is what the 10% on the MBW3 amounts to.),

Logic has nothing to do witht e SR4A rules. WbW and a Sim Module is enough to get the full suite bonus. Them's the fucking rules.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's also why cyberzombies don't make a lick of sense in the modern gameworld (though having old "clunker" models from the past is still a pretty awesome idea). I can barely fill in 6 points of Essence worth of totally optimized implants as it is.

[CodeBreaker]

I thought Cyberzombies had an effective Essence of 12 when determining the effects of Cyber? After you hit 0 you just start going into negative numbers and you have to start rolling binding (Which you dont really need to do when you are making a Prime Runner. GM can just say it all went well). Having anouther 6 Essence to play with on top of a full Deltaware Cyberwear package should be able to fit in a fair bit no?

Or am I not understanding what you mean correctly?

[McAllister]

I don't believe you're understanding his point correctly. His point as I understand it is that you don't run out of ESSENCE, you run out of WARE, particularly if you use things like biocompatibility and adapsin. To pass 6 Essence, you need a lot of low-grade cyberware, or else you just have to throw half of Augmentation into one person.

[CodeBreaker]

Oh right, yeah I misunderstood then. I guess the only solution is liberal applications of the Weapon Mount 'ware and making yourself a walking arsenal of death. Maybe have a mortar welded onto his back while your at it (For when you need to use indirect fire!)

And then when you figure out that you still dont have enough stuff you start adding extra cyberarms for even more fun!

Edit: For the first time I am actually reading the Cybermancy rules properly, and damn those things are nasty buggers. I can see one standing toe to toe with a well made possession mage with some ease.

[Tachi]

Yeah, like 30 essence worth just to get to 0 essence. If you go cyberzombie, that gives you 30 more you can get. The problem is that there just isn't that much different compatible ware to implant, even if you include bioware you can't really use up 60 essence.

Well, probably.

[McAllister]

But here's the thing; proper cyberzombies ignore piddling trifles like adapsin and suites, because the lower their Essence goes, the more invincible they get.

Full cyberware replacement (head, arms, legs, torso) is 6.75 essence, so once you throw in MbW3 you're pretty much at the limit; and between 84 capacity and rating 5 skillwires, everything else you can plug in (not that there's much else to do, with all cyberlimbs). Hell, if you install adapsin, there's room left over for ears and eyes.

By the way, I really like the Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries, but I'm not sure I get exactly what it's talking about. On this day that heaven was falling, an army of mercenaries defended creation and nobly died?

[CodeBreaker]

But then how would I fit in my Cybergland that makes the Zombie smell like roses and taste like strawberries? You know, for the Technofetishists out there.

[Tachi]

I know they usually ignore things like adapsin and biocompatibility, but, they don't have to. I was actually just remarking that one doesn't need to be a cyberzombie to go all crazy with implants.

As enemies, I love cyberzombies. As PCs, I can't stand them, I'd never play one. To many drawbacks from my perspective. I realize some people like them. They're just not for me that's all. Especially since I can build one hell of a cyber bad-ass without going under 1 essence using adapsin, biocompatibility, suites, and the 1/2 essence cost rule for the implant type you have less of (i.e. cyber or bio).


Epitaph is just a poem Houseman wrote about the World War 1 mercs who (though you don't hear much about them) were insturmental in the allied victory. It simply remarks that a soldier is a soldier, even if he's just there for a paycheck, and should be honored for his sacrifices just the same. They saved the world for a paycheck.

At least, I think that's what he meant.

[McAllister]

I thought the poem was something along those lines. Thanks for the background info.

I guess the sorts of people who like roleplaying cyberzombies are the ones who liked Harry Potter in book 5 when he was being all emo. That's basically cyberzombies in a nutshell; shooty, smashy and stompy on the outside, whiny emo kid on the outside. So your soul was ripped out and stuffed back in like a <unnecessary details deleted by sysop>. Who cares? Shoot some more stuff!

[Werewindlefr]

It's also why cyberzombies don't make a lick of sense in the modern gameworld (though having old "clunker" models from the past is still a pretty awesome idea). I can barely fill in 6 points of Essence worth of totally optimized implants as it is.

Cyberzombies make sense because while expensive they're probably much less expensive than implanting Deltaware grade implants, the R&D required to make a deltasuite just for a handful of people, etc. Also, 10% come from a rare quality. That's a 20% discount that is unlikely to be there, and what remains is Adapsin + deltaware. 40% from a MBW3 is still 2 essence, and then, there are things such as cyberlimbs...

Logic has nothing to do witht e SR4A rules.

The GM is there to make sense of it. They explain where the essence reduction comes from, and the GM is in command of cybersuites design. He is thus responsible for having it make sense. There's the letter of the rule, then there's the spirit. There's enough fridge logic in SR4 as it is, I think.

They saved the world for a paycheck.

WWI wasn't about saving the world.

[Tachi]

WWI wasn't about saving the world.

No, it wasn't. Like almost all wars it was about resources and ideology. But, quibbling about the difference between the real reason for a war and the propagandic (note that I don't necessarily consider propaganda a negative thing, it serves it's purpose for both good people and bad people) reasons that motivate individual soldiers and the populations that support them isn't what this particular thread is about. I only mentioned the poem because McAllister asked. And, Houseman, the poem's author, thought that "saving the world" was exactly what they were doing.

[Falconer]

Actually that's a pretty nasty idea for a cyberzombie... Forget delta we want the essence lower... more soldiers, better quality, for less cost! (remember the lower it goes the higher the base attributes allotment over base).

Adapsin, biocompatibility, and alpha grade is 60% normal at only 2x base cost. So roughly 10 cyber total. (only reason for first two is packing in more kit w/o making the cost go up by switching from basic -> alpha -> beta).
EG: alphaware cyberzombie is only 3x the cost of a basic grade one, but packs in 66% more punch. (2x cost, w/ 50% more of it)
Less so if you allow basic cyberware as capacity items. (house rule yes)


At say -4 essence... that allows for straight 10(15) stats on a human. Now I'm tempted to see how cost effective you could built a cyberzombie like this.


And remember... all cyberzombies need tailored pheromones 3 :) (hehe a charismatic cyberzombie)

[Phelan Patrick]

hey whats this adapsin i keep hearing about? on which source book can it be found?