Alternative rules, For Shadowrun Options

[Chrysalis]

Greets,

I was reading a thread and I was struck by how some people are disaffected by Shadowrun. So am I. Rules lawyering and modifcation grabbing starts getting on my nerves after awhile. How do you deal with a possession mage whose average point of dealing damage is 30 and armour is the equivalent, and when everyone else is around 10-15?

Personally, any game where after 12 minutes of character generation with the GM making crib notes is enough.

So let's stop with Jenga style of tweaking the system and ask, what would Shadowrun be like if a completely different system would be used.

Me, after many years not playing GURPS, I would actually like GURPS Shadowrun. If I need anything special, I have sourcebook for it, from Bio-tech to future weapons.

Maybe I am not playing for the mathematically oriented, how about BESM 2.0 with Shadowrun? Or Amber?

[Bira]

I actually am GMing Shadowrun using GURPS rules. Two full runs so far, one per session, and both went swimmingly well. I have a lot of SR 4 books, and after reading them for a while, and seeing the kinds of things there were rules for, I came to the conclusion that the Shadowrun rules system really wanted to be GURPS when it grew up, so I went ahead and made the switch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . A lot of people have had the same idea, so you can find a lot of material on this out on the Internet. GURPS is flexible enough that you'll find several different takes on "GURPS Shadowrun", too. My advice would be to forget about trying to do a word-for-word conversion, and just using the equivalent GURPS rules for things.

If you want something lighter and less fidly, I would recommend Wushu Open Reloaded (google it, it's free and pretty easy to find). It's an almost purely descriptive system.

[ShaunClinton]

You tailor the game to the PCs you have! I think there are some buggy things in the system, but overall it is pretty good.

Any GM worth their salt could figure out ways to challenge the possession mage without terminating the rest of the team. Off the top of my head... background count, enemy mages specialising in banishing, astral opponents, the list is endless and they don't need to have much of an effect on the rest of the party.

[HappyDaze]

Any GM worth their salt could figure out ways to challenge the possession mage without terminating the rest of the team. Off the top of my head... background count, enemy mages specialising in banishing, astral opponents, the list is endless and they don't need to have much of an effect on the rest of the party.

And in challenging this over-the-top possession magician, what else have you done? The Background Count you used just rendered the non-cheesed magician magically-challenged and caused the adept to become impotent. Banishing is fairly worthless by the rules - you're much better off just massively overcasting a Manabolt (or Stunbolt) and then rather than just challenging the guy you've destroyed him (not fun). Astral opponents are often outclassed badly by a strong dual natured opponent (such as a possessed magician) especially if that dual natured creature can fling spells at anything that tries to stay out of reach. If the astral things can cast spells too, then they likely have ways of doing nasty things to the rest of the group, and the possession magician is still likely to outsurvive the rest of the party. Sorry, but taking out such a character in the midst of a party without spilling heaps of shit on all of them is much harder to do than you make it sound.

As for the OP, I've got a liking for Cortex right now, but i'm not likely to use it for SR. Instead, I'd recommend Savage Worlds for Shadowrun. It already has fantasy races, cybernetics, and magic (although adepts are going to require a bit more of a tweak). All it lacks is a matrix system, but so far as I've seen, many players wouldn't view that as much of a loss.

[Bira]

My group is composed of a Technomancer, a Troll mercenary, and a demolitions expert, all built with 150 points in GURPS. I'm using Cyberpsi from the GURPS Psionic Powers PDF for the technomancer, and the other two are pretty much straight GURPS characters (the troll has a custom racial template, but that's something you can build with the corebook alone). Neither the troll nor the human demo expert have any cyberware, but that doesn't impact their efficience as characters in the least. Since the only "hacker" in the group is the technomancer, the self-contained rules for Cyberpsi have been enough for me.

No one has created an adept, but if someone ever does I'm going to use the Body Control power from GURPS Powers, with the Magic power source. For full magicians, I'm still a bit undecided over whether to use standard GURPS magic (which would lead to mages with lots of cheap little utility spells) or a Powers-based approach (which results in mages with a handful of really expensive spells). Both cyberware and magic are a little expensive in terms of points, so it's unlikely starting 150 point character will have much of either. That is perfectly OK.

[KCKitsune]

All it lacks is a matrix system, but so far as I've seen, many players wouldn't view that as much of a loss.

Could you not just adapt the combat system for the meat world and mod it for the Virtual?

As to the OP... another idea is to use the Anime D20 rules. Just limit the powers that they can take and go with it. Every piece of cyberware (I believe) is possible under those rules.

[HappyDaze]

It could be done, but it would be a really rough translation and would best serve as SR1-3's VR system. It's less suitable for SR4-styled AR hacking. That's for in-Matrix stuff; meat-world effects would be easier to simulate.

Technomancers could be handled with an Arcane Background and powers that let them use things like Remote Sensing and Control Machines with technology being the obvious tool involved. Hackers could have most of these meat-world effects too, and it might be hard to demonstrate a real difference between the two types. Of course, for many that don't like any of the Emergence stuff (Git yer magic outa my Matrix!), eliminating technomancers isn't a bad thing at all.

[BlueMax]

Greets,

I was reading a thread and I was struck by how some people are disaffected by Shadowrun. So am I. Rules lawyering and modifcation grabbing starts getting on my nerves after awhile. How do you deal with a possession mage whose average point of dealing damage is 30 and armour is the equivalent, and when everyone else is around 10-15?

Personally, any game where after 12 minutes of character generation with the GM making crib notes is enough.

So let's stop with Jenga style of tweaking the system and ask, what would Shadowrun be like if a completely different system would be used.

Me, after many years not playing GURPS, I would actually like GURPS Shadowrun. If I need anything special, I have sourcebook for it, from Bio-tech to future weapons.

Maybe I am not playing for the mathematically oriented, how about BESM 2.0 with Shadowrun? Or Amber?

Whole quote, so that everything is in context. What I find important is the mention of Amber. Amber is a fantastic "storyteller" game. However, I use the word game very loosely. From what I remember mechanically everything is predetermined in Amber. WHile its fast, there isn't much game to it. Shadowrun on the other hand, is crunchy. It has been so since the first Big Blue Blook. /me hugs his First Ed and absorbs the wonderful memories.

There is a great deal of fiction posted by players but little to nothing in the way of adventures. Its hard to create games in the current system, generic games. Its nearly impossible to create static stats that challenge everyone. The Denver Missions sliding scale was helpful, though with my group we added 4 level of TR from the get go . What to do with high force spirits and sprites? Chrysalis, I don't know.

Any game requires an understanding between all of the players and the game master. My current group is having an issue with the deadliness that exists when you have chosen to run around summoning rating 9 spirits and sprites. The game is only deadly at that point. There is no "runs at 6 boxes", people take 0 or 15 from the Direct Spells.

If the players want and agree to a storytelling style, it is my belief that the game system doesn't matter. As soon as the players can game the game with the rules, things get harder. Even if they have promised not to be complete jackasses.

BlueMax
/latest whine
//"Why do we encounter so many initiated mages?"
/// From the dude who has 4 levels of initiation.

[ShadowPavement]

I actually created some SR rules to use with the free RISUS system so I could run a game on the fly when I travel or as a quick set-up for a con or something.

If anyone is interested here is a copy of the one page rules that I wrote

[Synner667]

Ripping the background for use with GURPS is pretty easy...
...And since it already has rules for cyberpunk [GURPS Cyberpunk or GURPS Transhuman, or even GURPS Cthulhupunk - my fave], technology, magic, etc quite easy to play with.

Though, HERO rules are even more flexible...
...And FUZION rules are another good option - though you probably need the 3rd party produced rules additions for the whole cyberpunk and magic rules.

In reality, GURP and HERO are better rules in many ways - more flexible, more "tweakable" for different power levels and have had most of the potentially abusive bits already sorted out.
Plus GURPS and HERO are generally much more grounded in the realworld, so are easier for dealing with things that aren't already in the rules.

[Synner667]

Whole quote, so that everything is in context. What I find important is the mention of Amber. Amber is a fantastic "storyteller" game. However, I use the word game very loosely. From what I remember mechanically everything is predetermined in Amber. WHile its fast, there isn't much game to it. Shadowrun on the other hand, is crunchy. It has been so since the first Big Blue Blook. /me hugs his First Ed and absorbs the wonderful memories.

I remember from years back, from people who used to attend AmberCon, that several groups used dice mechanics to resolve things - completely stepping back from Amber's freeform nature

There is a great deal of fiction posted by players but little to nothing in the way of adventures. Its hard to create games in the current system, generic games. Its nearly impossible to create static stats that challenge everyone. The Denver Missions sliding scale was helpful, though with my group we added 4 level of TR from the get go . What to do with high force spirits and sprites? Chrysalis, I don't know.

It was one of my longstanding problems with SR v3 and v4 - no adventures = probably slow death of SR...
...To which most people responded with "well, they do SR Missions" and "you can get old adventures" and "it's easy to write your own" - completely bypassing the fact that new players probably wouldn't know about any of those, and longterm players/GMs are already well stocked.

[CanRay]

I once through about adapting D&D 4th Edition rules to the Shadowrun Universe, but then the fever broke...

[ShaunClinton]

And in challenging this over-the-top possession magician, what else have you done? The Background Count you used just rendered the non-cheesed magician magically-challenged and caused the adept to become impotent. Banishing is fairly worthless by the rules - you're much better off just massively overcasting a Manabolt (or Stunbolt) and then rather than just challenging the guy you've destroyed him (not fun). Astral opponents are often outclassed badly by a strong dual natured opponent (such as a possessed magician) especially if that dual natured creature can fling spells at anything that tries to stay out of reach. If the astral things can cast spells too, then they likely have ways of doing nasty things to the rest of the group, and the possession magician is still likely to outsurvive the rest of the party. Sorry, but taking out such a character in the midst of a party without spilling heaps of shit on all of them is much harder to do than you make it sound.

I couldn't disagree more. What is the GM's function at the table? They are there to make the game fun for everyone, this goes beyond simply coming up with challenging opposition and dumping it on the PCs to see what happens. The GM is in control of the environment and all of the protagonists except for the PC which gives enormous scope for making life difficult.

Banishing is fairly worthless by the rules - you're much better off just massively overcasting a Manabolt (or Stunbolt) and then rather than just challenging the guy you've destroyed him (not fun).

Why should it bother the GM whether or not Banishing is fairly worthless? Perhaps if you are a PC trying to design an optimal character Banishing is not as effective as a Manabolt, but for a GM with the freedom to create whatever he likes and with a mandate to make the game fun Banishing is the better option. In these circumstances Manabolt is fairy worthless - as you so eloquently pointed out it is "not fun".

As for the background count suggestion - maybe it is a mage with mana static who targets the possession magician as he recognises the threat such a being poses. Perhaps it is just regular background count and it impacts on all of the magically orientated characters (how many are there at most tables - 2, 3, maybe 4?) The adept probably has useful skills outwith his adept abilities, enemy mages are as challenged as the PC mages and the possession specialist (and let's face it, if he is powerful enough to be a problem he is probably fairly specialised) is impacted doubly as his spirit and his magic rating have just taken a hit. The non-cheesed mage probably is rounded out a bit better and perhaps took a few levels of longarms. Not to mention that this is the opportunity for the mundanes in the party to shine! If the magic crew are taking names and kicking ass every week then throwing in the odd encounter like this gives the street sam and the hacker a chance to show their chops. Everyone should get their moment in the sun.

There are also all sorts of challenges that a big spirit isn't the answer to - on a stealth mission with plenty of astral security a giant spirit is probably the wrong approach. Why not throw in some roleplaying challenges, negotiations, hacking, bypassing security systems, etc. that use the skills of the team and not just the guy with the giant ape of a spirit. Send the team on a metaplanar quest so that he can't be possessed. Have them crack into a building with super-high force wards. Maybe that go-gang they're after picked up a single shot rocket launcher they've been saving for a really tough target. Panicking Lone Star goons with no other way to stop some all powerful spirit being might ram their car into him. Mobile opponents with aircraft or flight abilities can use their mobility against him. The ways in which you can challenge him are endless - and they don't have to result in everyone else being turned into red mist.

Keep in mind that this character has invested heavily in these abilities, so whilst they might reek heavily of cheese you should allow them to use them to great effect fairly regularly. Otherwise the PC isn't going to enjoy showing up every week to be creatively neutralised by his GM. The key is to balance things so that everyone gets these opportunities - if he is hogging the limelight invoke a scenario that knocks him down a peg or two and lets someone else come up trumps.

[HappyDaze]

but for a GM with the freedom to create whatever he likes and with a mandate to make the game fun Banishing is the better option.

I don't want to argue the rest of your post, but this one is key. It's not just the GM having a mandate to make the game frun for the players - the players have an equally important responsibility to make the game fun for the GM. If they are always taking the most optimized methods of neutralizing the opposition - to the point of upsetting the flow of the story - then the GM is not going to have fun. Sorry, but the GM doesn't always have to roll with the punches and accept crap like that just because he 'can offer greater challenges' - he can just say "fuck it all" when he no longer enjoys showing up every week.

[ludomastro]

If you are really looking for something that has an easier flow and don't mind loosing the crunchy bits, you could adopt a high narrative system like Evil Hat's Spirit of the Century.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

If they are always taking the most optimized methods of neutralizing the opposition - to the point of upsetting the flow of the story - then the GM is not going to have fun.

Define "upsetting the flow of the story."

Or, in other words, why the hell does it matter if they blow through the BBEG in six seconds? If you want to create some baddie to show off how tough he is, play a PC.

[Cthulhudreams]

You could honestly just not let spirit armour stack with man made armour and that would solve your problem.

In other news the GURPS rules are absolutely horrible. They are so complicated for new players and there are quite a number of 'traps' that unless you know in detail how al the skills work, it is easy for an experinced play to make a character that is just 30% better than yours in every aspect.

And trust me, 30% better in every way is really noticable.

[Maelstrome]

may i recommend the story bones rules or the original maelstrom storytelling game by hubris/precis. the rules for story engine/bones are unique ad simple. its easy to learn and use.character creation is fast and so is the creation of anything in the game world you might want. my group started playing it and played about 5 times before i went on vacation and other stuff happened. but we should get back to it soon.

[CodeBreaker]

Personally I am waiting to see what the Eclipse Phase rules turn out like. Chances are my group is going to be playing a campaign of that (With me as the GM) and from what I read online it has about the same amount of crunch as Shadowrun but in a slightly more streamlined package. Might be adaptable to Shadowrun.

[HappyDaze]

Define "upsetting the flow of the story."

If a story/adventure is set up with several dramatic scenes and the PCs are able to bypass the scenes way too easily because of a rules exploit, that is upsetting the flow of the story. It's like the time I saw a group of Star Trek players solved a mystery by just going faster than light and then turning their super-sensors back to the scene and waiting for the images and transmissions (traveling at lightspeed) to catch up. So much for any mystery.

Likewise, there are often genre conventions in many settings. Superhero games are big for the 'but we just don't do it that way' but even SR has some - and you'll see many posts here suggesting harsh 'hammer them if they try it' posts in response to players that go outside of these areas. I'd rather not have to hammer at anyone, but many powergamers tend to have no such reservations about hammering the GM's scenes. Some of them see the PCs as the most important thing and everything else has to bend before them - the world has to adapt to their playstyle and fuck the GM if he doesn't like it. I say that's crap.

Or, in other words, why the hell does it matter if they blow through the BBEG in six seconds? If you want to create some baddie to show off how tough he is, play a PC.

you don't have a clue what I'm talking about. It's not about some NPC. It's not about showing off. It's about creating dramatic scenes and having some asshole trying to subvert it for his own personal enjoyment over thqat of everyone else.

[Totentanz]

Greets,

I was reading a thread and I was struck by how some people are disaffected by Shadowrun. So am I. Rules lawyering and modifcation grabbing starts getting on my nerves after awhile. How do you deal with a possession mage whose average point of dealing damage is 30 and armour is the equivalent, and when everyone else is around 10-15?

Personally, any game where after 12 minutes of character generation with the GM making crib notes is enough.

So let's stop with Jenga style of tweaking the system and ask, what would Shadowrun be like if a completely different system would be used.

Me, after many years not playing GURPS, I would actually like GURPS Shadowrun. If I need anything special, I have sourcebook for it, from Bio-tech to future weapons.

Maybe I am not playing for the mathematically oriented, how about BESM 2.0 with Shadowrun? Or Amber?

Everybody else has done a fine job suggesting other systems, so I'll take a different tack.

I've seen many people argue possession mages are broken, and many argue that possession mages aren't. Ultimately, if they are destroying your game, remove them. If your players revolt, set up a few runs where they have to face some of them down, use the same tactics, then re-present your proposal. You don't have to take the game or leave it. You can use the parts you do like, and work with your players to make an enjoyable game for everyone. Nowhere is it written that every part of every source book must be used.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from using an alternate system. I'm also not saying possession is or isn't broken. I'm just saying that if you jump systems every time your players find the effectiveness you are going to be switching a lot.

Yeah, I know you said you didn't want to tweak, but everybody else gave you plenty of good options. Just my two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[BlueMax]

Everybody else has done a fine job suggesting other systems, so I'll take a different tack.

I've seen many people argue possession mages are broken, and many argue that possession mages aren't. Ultimately, if they are destroying your game, remove them. If your players revolt, set up a few runs where they have to face some of them down, use the same tactics, then re-present your proposal. You don't have to take the game or leave it. You can use the parts you do like, and work with your players to make an enjoyable game for everyone. Nowhere is it written that every part of every source book must be used.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from using an alternate system. I'm also not saying possession is or isn't broken. I'm just saying that if you jump systems every time your players find the effectiveness you are going to be switching a lot.

Yeah, I know you said you didn't want to tweak, but everybody else gave you plenty of good options. Just my two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

How many tweaks before your no longer playing the same game as everyone else?

I , and just me I don't know about anyone else, believe that a system must be played coherently across the majority of groups if it is to survive. Groups come and go. The easier moving into a new game is for players, the more games will survive.

My group and I are playing as RAW as we can. While I am not praising Shadowrun for being perfect, I continue to hold that you embrace something for its flaws. Because we all agree that Force/CF rating above 6 doesn't scale and neither do Spirits/Sprites above 6, we embrace them for as long as we can. By embracing them, I mean that we play the game as is while seeking the natural counters that make the most thematic sense. Its been up to two years for us to find solutions that already existed in the rules. Which is just part of the crunchy level or complicated nature of Shadowrun.

That's not to say that homerules are pointless. The game I am playing right now removed IP. I cannot explain how easy this made movement.

BlueMax

[kzt]

In other news the GURPS rules are absolutely horrible. They are so complicated for new players and there are quite a number of 'traps' that unless you know in detail how al the skills work, it is easy for an experinced play to make a character that is just 30% better than yours in every aspect.

I found HERO not so bad, but we were always willing to let people rebuild their character after the first session or two if it wasn't working out. But the combat system is pretty slow and the mechanics don't really do guns that well.

[Synner667]

In other news the GURPS rules are absolutely horrible. They are so complicated for new players and there are quite a number of 'traps' that unless you know in detail how al the skills work, it is easy for an experinced play to make a character that is just 30% better than yours in every aspect.

Not really sure how "roll attribute or skill or less, on 3d6" to do pretty much anything in the game is "complicated"...
...Unless by "complicated" you mean there are lots of optional rules and lots and lots of source material and, because GURPS [and HERO] are quite grounded in the real world, they're as complicated as the real world.

And of course an experienced SR player can't generate a character that's 30% better than one generated by an inexperienced player - according to you...
...That's what experience means, you know how to do things "better"

[ShaunClinton]

Some of them see the PCs as the most important thing and everything else has to bend before them - the world has to adapt to their playstyle and fuck the GM if he doesn't like it. I say that's crap.

Errr... maybe I'm mistaken but I was always under the impression that the PCs were the most important thing in the game world! They are described throughout every roleplaying system I've ever played as the lead characters. The types of character they play, the backgrounds they generate and the things that interest them are what will shape the type of game they play in.

Part of being a GM is being open to the creativity (and other annoying traits) of the PCs. If you prepare a carefully constructed dramatic storyline and the players blast it to pieces (by luck, design or whatever) then you should roll with the punches and let them, because otherwise your ramming them down the railroad tracks which (if they realise) they won't thank you for. Presumably as GM you would have access to the characters and be aware of their capabilities, so why design scenarios they can blast through? If using off the shelf material you need to at least take an hour or so to customise it to your PCs, this can even be done on the fly I suppose. A good example of a time I forgot this was when I stranded the PCs a few miles out at sea which was important to the plot - I had checked and the mage didn't have levitate and it was outside the riggers radio range, however I didn't realise the mage had shapeshift. He turned into a shark and swam back to shore in no time to pick up the teams chopper and go pick everyone up. It ruined a good few hours of prep, but it was right there on the sheet for me to see and it gave the PC a chance to shine and save everyone.

I've always loved GM-ing, even though it means my fun is of a different sort from the players. They get to enjoy developing a character, achieving the goals, succeeding in their missions (sometimes!) and just having fun. I get to have some fun too, but I take most of my enjoyment from crafting a story that lets the PCs have their fun whilst challenging them.

If you don't want PCs lousing up your "dramatic scenes" then maybe you should consider writing a novel.