Alternative rules, For Shadowrun Options

[HappyDaze]

Errr... maybe I'm mistaken but I was always under the impression that the PCs were the most important thing in the game world! They are described throughout every roleplaying system I've ever played as the lead characters. The types of character they play, the backgrounds they generate and the things that interest them are what will shape the type of game they play in.

A character in isolation is nothing. A PC is nothing without the game world it exists in. If the player(s) crap on that world, then they are going to be crapping on their own characters. So, while the players - including the GM - are the most important ingredients to the game, characters may not necessarily be so important on their own.

Part of being a GM is being open to the creativity (and other annoying traits) of the PCs.

Within reason, sure. But what about when what they want is completely at adds with what the game world the GM has set up allows? If a player in most SR games wants to play a megalodon with Sapience, I'd guess most GMs are going to say "No." Sometimes being too open is a detriment to a good game. Knowing when to say no is easily as important as knowing when to say yes.

Presumably as GM you would have access to the characters and be aware of their capabilities, so why design scenarios they can blast through?

It's not always that easy. Sometimes you have players that are good at hiding their character's true capabilities. You don't see the cheese wheel until it rolls over you. Then you're left with the "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..." and the hard feelings that can come of that. There's also the fact that if a GM has to spend hours checking over the capabilities of the PCs to ensure every scene is cheese-proofed, GM burnout will set in damn fast.

I get to have some fun too

You make it sound like your fun is an afterthought. I'm not so selfless.

If you don't want PCs lousing up your "dramatic scenes" then maybe you should consider writing a novel.

Nice display of judgemental ignorance. Your line here shows that you don't have the faintest fucking idea of how I GM. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Maelstrome]

i keep my players in line with what i want merely by staying one step ahead of them. practice outsmarting your players.

im with mr clinton on this one. if you fancy your story as more important than your players you are bound to run into problems. really its sounds like there is a conflict of interests with your group. your players want one game and you want another. a group of players can pull a game together without a set gm. a gm on the other hand will have a harder time without players. its sounds like you have the same problem one of my groups gms had. eventually we got fed up of each other and stopped playing with that individual for quite a while. have you had a group meeting about the game and what you want to see changed? if they wont compromise then either you have to or just quit gming. if nothing else then give your players what they want. im a very open minded gm. i let my players do whatever they want , aslong as its in the rules or they bring it to me first.

[Totentanz]

How many tweaks before your no longer playing the same game as everyone else?

I , and just me I don't know about anyone else, believe that a system must be played coherently across the majority of groups if it is to survive. Groups come and go. The easier moving into a new game is for players, the more games will survive.

My group and I are playing as RAW as we can. While I am not praising Shadowrun for being perfect, I continue to hold that you embrace something for its flaws. Because we all agree that Force/CF rating above 6 doesn't scale and neither do Spirits/Sprites above 6, we embrace them for as long as we can. By embracing them, I mean that we play the game as is while seeking the natural counters that make the most thematic sense. Its been up to two years for us to find solutions that already existed in the rules. Which is just part of the crunchy level or complicated nature of Shadowrun.

That's not to say that homerules are pointless. The game I am playing right now removed IP. I cannot explain how easy this made movement.

BlueMax

That is an interesting point. I suppose some groups would like to stay close to the rules for the sake of coherency and ease of transition. My perspective comes from having played with the same group for over 6 years now. I've also never participated in PbP games, where I'm sure rules coherency is vital.

However, personally I see the group's desires as being paramount. They are certainly more important than adhering to some abstract concept of "SR-ness." If your group's desires include being loyal to this concept, more power to you.

Some people like to take things as they are. Other people like to seek continual improvement. The majority of us lie somewhere in the middle. If Chrysalis' group has had enough of possession mages, then they can remove the flaw they don't like and keep the stuff they do. For instance, they could keep the IP system you removed.

I have similar experiences with games I play. One game in particular the math of character advance broke down so completely that the entire game world was thrown off. After dealing with it the hard way for an entire campaign, we invented a minor rules tweak that fixed things perfectly. The game still has its flaws, but they much more manageable for our enjoyment now.

[BlueMax]

i keep my players in line with what i want merely by staying one step ahead of them. practice outsmarting your players.

im with mr clinton on this one. if you fancy your story as more important than your players you are bound to run into problems. really its sounds like there is a conflict of interests with your group. your players want one game and you want another. a group of players can pull a game together without a set gm. a gm on the other hand will have a harder time without players. its sounds like you have the same problem one of my groups gms had. eventually we got fed up of each other and stopped playing with that individual for quite a while. have you had a group meeting about the game and what you want to see changed? if they wont compromise then either you have to or just quit gming. if nothing else then give your players what they want. im a very open minded gm. i let my players do whatever they want , aslong as its in the rules or they bring it to me first.

I cannot find the words to express how much I disagree with the first paragraph. There are six to seven players at my table, I cannot outsmart all of them. Nor can I be expected to come up with all the possible paths they take.

As for the second paragraph, there are parts with which I agree.

BlueMax

[Maelstrome]

i must have some mad skillz then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

back in my school days i had three seperate groups i gmed on a weekly basis. two groups had 8 players each and one had six. it should also be noted that i dont railroad my players and if they stray from the path i set i go into improve mode. i generally set up a different "path" for each of my players styles. so one session in planning could seem like 8 different set ups. i didnt say outsmarting your players was easy, but it is possible. plus i love the challenge it presents to have to think on my toes and outwit everybody to give them there challenge. i guess thats where my fun comes from, to me its one big constantly evolving, ever changing puzzle.

and if anybody somehow took anything ive said in offense, i am sorry.

[Kerenshara]

In other news the GURPS rules are absolutely horrible. They are so complicated for new players and there are quite a number of 'traps' that unless you know in detail how al the skills work, it is easy for an experinced play to make a character that is just 30% better than yours in every aspect.

And trust me, 30% better in every way is really noticable.

All I have to say is: 1/2 Damage?! WTF?!?!

OK, but seriously, the GURPS rules were written, and even make sense, when you're limited to muscle powered technology. As the TL progresses, it starts to get weird. And frankly, the tiny number of core stats ruins it for me.

On the other hand, if you're massochistically inclined, you could always have a look at the (out of print?) Silhouette 3.0 system, which has some DELIGHTFUL mechanics that I just adore.

But without a good way to handle drain, and essence loss, and a million-and-one other little things that make the 6^th World into Shadowrun, you lose an awful lot of what makes it special to begin with.

My favorite example of a system that died when it abandoned it's core mechanics which were tailored to the universe was the original Legend of the Five Rings. It was a Japanese stat system and that flowed right over into the skills and out into game play. Then AEG sold out to the Coastal Wizards and they d20'fied it. Thankfully, they've returned to their roots in the latest edition. (Which is a physically impressive book, incidentally. I keep telling myself "you don't need it, nobody will play it with you, and it's expensive." So far, it's still on the bookstore's shelf and not mine, but my resolve is weakening.)

If you make a point of trying to play within the basic assumptions of the creators (*gasp!*) and everybody at the table follows suit, including the GM, the current system does a great job in most respects of depicting and modelling the 6th World in the 2070s. (OK, the entire vehicle rules system is proof that somebody was deeply using something that they needed to be sharing with the other kiddies. But I can live with most of the rest of it.)

Every rules system has it's share of flaws and dropped threads. SR4(A) is no exception. What I like most about SR4 is just how internally consistent it's become between the three realms (Physical, Astral and Electron) and how things now flow so much better than they used to. But if you try to take the 6^th World out of a system tailored to the needs of the UAW (Universe As Written) then you chance losing so much more in flavor and function than you might gain in terms of pure rules mechanics.

To each their own, but I think if people put more effort into expanding on the rules as they exist presently (Things like you might have seen me posting in various threads) without throwing out the skeleton mechanics, and to defining their characters from within the assumptions and limitations of the creators, then I think a lot of the "alternate system" talk would drift away.

If you think the combat system's too generic and abstract for you, fix it. Want hit locations again? Do it. It's not hard. The called shot rules already exist. Figure out a way to use them. Don't like the generified weapons? Rewrite the charts (working on that myself). Don't like the totems as depicted? Rewrite them. The important parts are the basic mechanics like threshold tests, resisted and opposed tests, core statistics, and combat/damage system(s). Drain has always been what set Shadowrun apart from EVERY other game system with magic I ever played. Want magic more taxing? Tweak the formula. There are dozens of optional rules for tweaking game play. Try some of them. You'd be amazed how much you can make this system your own without tossing out the core pieces and making the related books useless.

*To be fair, I haven't a CLUE how to approach fixing the vehicle-related rules. Calling them a cluster-slot would be too kind. But I'm sure there's a way, I just haven't put as much thought into it as I have totems-er, mentor spirits and smallarms.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

[font="Lucida Console"]All I have to say is: 1/2 Damage?! WTF?!?!
My favorite example of a system that died when it abandoned it's core mechanics which were tailored to the universe was the original Legend of the Five Rings. It was a Japanese stat system and that flowed right over into the skills and out into game play. Then AEG sold out to the Coastal Wizards and they d20'fied it. Thankfully, they've returned to their roots in the latest edition. (Which is a physically impressive book, incidentally. I keep telling myself "you don't need it, nobody will play it with you, and it's expensive." So far, it's still on the bookstore's shelf and not mine, but my resolve is weakening.)

I really do suggest that you get the 3rd Edition of L5R... It has beautiful game books and the system is a dream to play... And it does not hurt that I simply love the setting...

[BlueMax]

I really do suggest that you get the 3rd Edition of L5R... It has beautiful game books and the system is a dream to play... And it does not hurt that I simply love the setting...

Or the First Edition, also a dream to play.
At least for me.

It didn't hurt that I grew up just down the highway form AEG and my friends worked in Junzo's forges making the Clan War miniatures...


BlueMax

[underaneonhalo]

I like GURPs, but I've never used it for anything too physical. I use it for running paranormal investigation style games where there's next to no combat and it works wonderfully. I'd love to run a game like the old Masque of the Red Death Ravenloft campaign setting, man that was fun.

As far as the whole character VS story importance thing I feel that both are equally important. You need characters to move the story and give it life, and you need the story to drive the characters and give their lives meaning.

If your character is nothing more than the sum of their stats then they aren't a character, they're a formula. Go play with a calculator.
If your story is more important then the characters then you shouldn't leave your work up to the whims of the players. Write a book.

It's up to the GM to maintain game balance. a simple way is to set limits and ask that your players write a few paragraphs of back story for their characters.

But these are just my opinions and you're all welcome to your own, I'm very generous that way.

[HappyDaze]

then I think a lot of the "alternate system" talk would drift away.

That's not really a good thing. Talk of alternate systems is going to spark creativity and allow for options that better fit particualr gaming styles. Why would we want that to drift away?

[ShadowPavement]

We used to have a GM who considered the story more important than the PC's (except for maybe the one PC he based his story around). It was a pretty boring game. We'd sit around doing nothing most sessions since we could never come up with the one action that the GM wanted us to take to make things progress. In the years I gamed with him I never once got to use my characters contacts even though I kept trying.

It was OK for him to dictate more of what we did when we were in high school and new to the game. But after getting to college and learning how to RP better we wanted to have our characters do stuff and make plans and have...well...character. That's when things went south, but most of us kept coming back since it was one of the few times we actually got to see each other.

Things finally imploded when another friend decided to run a game, but he lived with the old GM so the old GM kept putting ideas in his head and would essentially co-GMed with his character. He had a diva fit when my wife joined the game and everyone liked her character more than his and wanted her to be the team leader.

Yeah. No more of that for me.

[HappyDaze]

Yeah. No more of that for me.

You'll find that a good story-strong GM makes for a delightful game with far more regularity that one that's cruch-heavy. Unfortunately, it's harder to be a good story-strong GM than it is to be a number cruncher. Sorry you had such a bad experience. I've not been seen/presented the way you describe it - my players complimented me on the games I put together last night and tried to pull me back into SR with them, but I declined. Now they're putting together something with SR (a 'street-level' game that I have no interest in regardless of system used) on their own every-other week, and I'll be running a 1950s evolution of Hollow Earth Expedition using the Cortex System for them on the alternating weeks. A win for everyone.

[Kerenshara]

That's not really a good thing. Talk of alternate systems is going to spark creativity and allow for options that better fit particualr gaming styles. Why would we want that to drift away?

I gave you the answer to your question in the larger prose of the same post:

To get that same creativity directed back into an existing system specifically set up for the unique opportunities, requirements and limitations of the 6^th World.

Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of cases where the rules can be tweaked or even rehashed without dumping the core mechanics behind and around them. Look for an example of what I am suggesting at the things I've proposed. Fundamentally it's just the outer edges of the rules that I'm trying to polish, not hacking and pruning. I'm trying, wherever I can, to make sure the changes I suggest don't have any effect outside their scope. Firearms, for the most part, is just adjustments to the tables, not the mechanics, it's just that I want a coherent system behind the chart when I do it. Funny thing is, there are plenty of weapons that won't change a bit becasue I was TRYING to keep the basic balance intact. The mentor spirit customization I posted can replicate each and every mentor spirit in the game. The biggest "mechanical" change I've suggested to date (that I can recall) is the one about noticing spellcasting. There ARE some sections that are pretty objectively bad, like vehicle combat, but I haven's seen too many systems that do them really well to my liking, and none were worth abandoning the core mechanics elsewhere for. Now, I'm not intimately familiar with the vehicle rules (I've never really enjoyed being a rigger), so I don't know how deep you'd have to go to get a decent fix in. But I would LOVE to see some of that creative energy you rightfully speak of directed at a task like THAT.

That's why I'd like to see a lot of the talk of "alternate systems" fade away. Doubly so, because as long as we're working on THEIR system, CGL has an incentive to remain actively involved with us, their fans. If we abandon their product to play something Shadowrun-like with another system, they have little real motivation to support and remain engaged with us as a community.

[ShadowPavement]

You'll find that a good story-strong GM makes for a delightful game with far more regularity that one that's cruch-heavy. Unfortunately, it's harder to be a good story-strong GM than it is to be a number cruncher.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good story and a minimal to moderate amount of cruch and I've played in great story driven SR games. It was just that particular GM that had HIS STORY that had to be told no matter what the PC's did. And as a result no one had any fun.

I think part of the problem, especially later in the campaign's run when most of this stuff started happening was that there was so much time between sessions (6 months to a year) that the GM had too much time to think of the story and cement in his brain what the wanted it to be. When we were in high school and gaming every week he had less time to make concrete plans with us blowing holes in his NPC's every session.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm not sure how you can consider GURPS to be a more simplistic system. I can't really address that concept at all as it is so very, very mind-boggling to me.

If you do want to go streamlined, I hate to say it but the BESM system is really good for keeping things short and sweet. As are a lot of superhero game systems. You have tons of customization options available that, despite having so many options, are all handled the same way. You basically get to describe the rules however you want in order to create the effect you want. The Gun Adept, the Street Samurai, and the Weapons Expert might all have identical stats, but their flavor and style can and will be radically different.

[Warlordtheft]

It's not always that easy. Sometimes you have players that are good at hiding their character's true capabilities. You don't see the cheese wheel until it rolls over you. Then you're left with the "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..." and the hard feelings that can come of that. There's also the fact that if a GM has to spend hours checking over the capabilities of the PCs to ensure every scene is cheese-proofed, GM burnout will set in damn fast.

As a GM, I actually ignore the PC's ability to cheese a scene to a degree. Why? Part of when I design an adventure, I go for versimilitude over challenge. As part of this, the fixer setting up the work will choose the team he thinks is best capable of accomplishing the task. So for a team to breeze through an adventure-not a big deal. I do adjust Karma to reflect the difference though.
For the players it is also fun that they can Pwn a scenario on occasion, showing that their PC is a badass fighter/stealth/close combat expert.

Another bit of advice for GM's--never ever get into a GM vs PC mindset. As buying the farm is still dirt cheap in SR4A, and that one good ambush is a TPK.

[HappyDaze]

But I would LOVE to see some of that creative energy you rightfully speak of directed at a task like THAT.

That's why I'd like to see a lot of the talk of "alternate systems" fade away.

Now you're just being selfish. Let people put their creativity where they will - it'll still have some value to you, but you might need to put a bit more effort into converting it for your specific needs.

[Kerenshara]

Now you're just being selfish. Let people put their creativity where they will - it'll still have some value to you, but you might need to put a bit more effort into converting it for your specific needs.

Hmmm... selfish. I guess you could look at it that way.

Of course, so is trying to get people to jump mechanical systems so you have somebody else to help carry the load on the conversion. It's all relative.

In the end, it's a question of: are we playing Shadowrun^© or another game pretending to be Shadowrun^©. I was under the impression this board was the former, and people trying to find ways to improve that game, not dump it and start over. Perhaps I was simply mistaken. All of my posts and comments have certainly been directed at that first premise, at any rate.

[BlueMax]

Hmmm... selfish. I guess you could look at it that way.

Of course, so is trying to get people to jump mechanical systems so you have somebody else to help carry the load on the conversion. It's all relative.

In the end, it's a question of: are we playing Shadowrun^© or another game pretending to be Shadowrun^©. I was under the impression this board was the former, and people trying to find ways to improve that game, not dump it and start over. Perhaps I was simply mistaken. All of my posts and comments have certainly been directed at that first premise, at any rate.

If you are going to steal my arguments, expect incoming (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Thats why I want less fiction and more Adventures. People should play Shadowrun.

BlueMax

[HappyDaze]

In the end, it's a question of: are we playing Shadowrun© or another game pretending to be Shadowrun©.

That's all a matter of perspective. To someone that embraces SR3, the current Catalyst rules are not SR. To someone that picks up a system - such as Savage Worlds - and utilizes the SR fluff within those rules, that becomes SR. Regardless of system used, if it's still set in the SR IP's Sixth World, it's SR.

I was under the impression this board was the former

To a degree, you are mistaken. This site is 100% unofficial with regards to any of the game mechanics out there. So long as a post is about the SR IP - whether that be FASA, FanPro, Catalyst, or any other mechanics used... or even the video game - it's still SR and thus is appropriate for Dumpshock.

[Kerenshara]

That's all a matter of perspective. To someone that embraces SR3, the current Catalyst rules are not SR. To someone that picks up a system - such as Savage Worlds - and utilizes the SR fluff within those rules, that becomes SR. Regardless of system used, if it's still set in the SR IP's Sixth World, it's SR.


To a degree, you are mistaken. This site is 100% unofficial with regards to any of the game mechanics out there. So long as a post is about the SR IP - whether that be FASA, FanPro, Catalyst, or any other mechanics used... or even the video game - it's still SR and thus is appropriate for Dumpshock.

I see I misconstrued the purpose of the board. Thank you for the correction.

*exits this thread*

[ZeroPoint]

I have a few comments that I'd like to make.

First, it doesn't matter what system you use, as long as its one that you and your players enjoy for the setting your playing in. However, there are some systems that are inherently better for certain settings though. I've run many different settings many different systems. While most of those have been in various D&D editions, I have only run 1 forgotten realms and 1 grayhawk campaign...everything else has always been my own setting. I always describe my setting to my players so that we are all on the same page. And sometimes (most of the time) when your playing in a different setting, you need to change the way that the rules work to more accurately reflect how they work in your world. I know some people don't agree with the setting I'm running now for SR. Its essentially SR with no magic. There never was an awakening. When you do that, you have to change the entire history of events of a setting (which i did), you have to change certain rules (which I did) in order to make the game fit with YOUR setting. Soooo, why play this using SR rules at all? I like them better. My players too. Cyberpunk 2020 would work more easily without changes, in fact I knew and played with a couple of guys that helped with its development. I still like SR4 better. So thats what I'm using. Why no magic? Because thats what my PLAYERS wanted. And now my players are more familiar with the system so we can add magic in more easily on the next campaign. A good GM works with his players.

Second, as a GM, you are not only the storyteller, but you also are the one that decides what flies in your games, not the players. You are the one that spends hours every week planning each run, each NPC, drawing out maps...doing the work. That doesn't mean that your story or the world is the most important part of the game though. You still have to be receptive to your players and be able to think on your feet for when your players do something unexpected, or better yet, anticipate what your players will do when you can. Not to try to foil your player, but to make what your player does have real meaning and consequence in the game world. After all, its their game too. But as I said, your the one doing all the work, so your completely within your rights to say when something in the rules doesn't make sense, is too easily abused, doesn't fit with your idea of the setting, or is something that goes against the rules as intended rather than rules as written. what do you do then? change them. say something doesn't work, doesn't stack, and tell your players why it doesn't. A couple of things so far that I've changed are matrix rules (very slightly) to fit more in line with my group's experience as an IT professionals and programmers (all of my players work in either IT or programming or have strong background in either, I myself do both). there's no huge changes, but they are not RAW. And developed them with my players input. And to counter-act silly armor stacking (FFBA, PPP, Gel packs, etc) I've made some rulings against that.

A good GM knows the rules, knows his players, and knows how to change the rules to fit the game.

[Chrysalis]

I was thinking on hijacking the thread for a moment. What's a system which has a good drug creation rule system? I mean the SR rules for making drugs don't really exist, but I was thinking on what would a Trainspotting/Shadowrun game be like.

So it's dfinitely more about the spliffs, smack, horse, and PCP then about guns, cars, and mystical indians.

[HappyDaze]

IIRC, Cyberpunk had rules for brewing up your own custom drugs.

However, most effects-based systems (Hero, Mutants & Masterminds, etc.) can be used to build drugs. In these systems, the only difference between a drug that boosts you and cyberware (or magic, or whatever) that boosts you would be in the descriptors applied and any baggage that you elect to apply. If you want drugs to be addictive, you'd add that in as a flaw/complication/whatever but you could just as easily make certain enhancement spells addictive with these systems too. Hero is preferred by many, and it's a complex system that allows a great range of options. I tend to prefer M&M, and Sr could be done well with the guidelines in the Mecha & Manga (martial arts and adept-like abilities), Iron Age (get your grit and cyberpunk on), and Agents of Freedom (less super-hero and more super-agent... think of NickFury as a shadowrunner) books.

[StealthSigma]

Second, as a GM, you are not only the storyteller, but you also are the one that decides what flies in your games, not the players. You are the one that spends hours every week planning each run, each NPC, drawing out maps...doing the work. That doesn't mean that your story or the world is the most important part of the game though. You still have to be receptive to your players and be able to think on your feet for when your players do something unexpected, or better yet, anticipate what your players will do when you can. Not to try to foil your player, but to make what your player does have real meaning and consequence in the game world. After all, its their game too. But as I said, your the one doing all the work, so your completely within your rights to say when something in the rules doesn't make sense, is too easily abused, doesn't fit with your idea of the setting, or is something that goes against the rules as intended rather than rules as written.

By the way, we need to sort out rules/penalties for shooting while suspended upside down or proceeding along a zipline. I've realized if poop hits the fan and my character is in a different buildings but needs to be in the building where everyone else is, a zipline is the best course of action, but I don't want to go barreling through windows without checking to make sure the room is clear first.