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> Barrier Rating of Water, in regards to Shape Water mostly
Connor
post Jan 25 2004, 10:23 PM
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Any of you guys have any way of figuring out the barrier rating of water in regards to the spell and such...?
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Rev
post Jan 25 2004, 10:33 PM
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Heh, what a lame spell description.

Hmm...

Maybe liquid 2, snow/slush/slime/sludge 4, ice 6?

Yea maybe 4 for fairly contaminated water, that is something that would come up in game. And 6+ for ice or really contaminated water.
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Connor
post Jan 26 2004, 12:27 AM
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That seems pretty reasonable and along the lines I was thinking. It's good to have a little reinforcement there.

What about a higher BR for more volume though? I'm sort of leaning towards that direction as well.
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mfb
post Jan 26 2004, 12:37 AM
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why would contaminated water have a higher BR? i mean, unless your idea of 'contaminated' is 'a pile of wet mine tailings'.
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Connor
post Jan 26 2004, 12:40 AM
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Well, i was thinking he was meaning along the lines of full of sludge and/or other large-ish debris. Not chemical or anything of the sort.
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Frag-o Delux
post Jan 26 2004, 03:29 AM
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I think volume would been a big contributor to the brrier rating. But looking at the Shape Earth spell, water would seem to to have the same consistency as loose soil at most compact earth, so 1 or 2 barrier rating. Now this brings up a problem, at least to me, you can not use processed material like glass or concrete, so would that mean you can not use Shape Water on stuff like coffee or soda? They don't say anything about polluted soil so I guess polluted water can be manipulated.
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k1tsune
post Jan 26 2004, 03:35 AM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Now this brings up a problem, at least to me, you can not use processed material like glass or concrete, so would that mean you can not use Shape Water on stuff like coffee or soda? They don't say anything about polluted soil so I guess polluted water can be manipulated.

I'd say yes to -real- coffee, because it's not processed, just boiled and had beans steeped in it. Soykaf or soda... Are more questionable.
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kevyn668
post Jan 26 2004, 03:59 AM
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What about beer? liquor? I was thinking of the shootouts that happen in bars...
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k1tsune
post Jan 26 2004, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (kevyn668)
What about beer? liquor? I was thinking of the shootouts that happen in bars...

Beer, yes. I've made beer. Beer is eerily like fermented tea.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 26 2004, 07:35 AM
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I'd be inclined to give water a rather high TN for being shaped, what with the whole almost-no-natural-incentive-to-stay-where-you-put-itness of the stuff.
As for barrier rating, how much water does it take to stop a heavy pistol or rifle bullet? Just extrapolate from Power reduction.

~J
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The Jopp
post Jan 26 2004, 10:23 AM
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I would say that even though a material has a fixed barrier rating in SR one should still add something for the thickness of the material.

If you have a barrier made with a Shape water spell and made it 1" thick then it would have no barrier rating at all. If you made it five meters 'deep' then i'd add +1 for every one or two meter to the barrier rating.

When it comes to harder material i'd add +1 for every 10" or something. Perhaps this then?

Barrier rating -10= the amount of meters needed before the barrier rating is increased. If the result BR-10=0 then you add +1/1meter.

So, if water would have a BR of 1 you would need 9 meters of water between you and the shooter to gain +1 to BR.

Thoughts?
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Zimbabwean Aardv...
post Jan 26 2004, 10:41 AM
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I think there are rules in the Cannon Companion for shooting into water, taking into account the thickness. Just use those. For snow/slush, add +1 meter for every meter of thickness, and for ice, ad maybe +5.
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Rev
post Jan 26 2004, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (Connor)
What about a higher BR for more volume though? I'm sort of leaning towards that direction as well.

Well doesn't the spell specify the volume of water/earth you can move already?

Or did you mean for volume of water available, or the size of the body you are taking it from?

It makes some sense to me that it would be harder to say gather up 4 cubic meters of water out of rain, or simply wet streets and small puddles than from an actual lake or stream.

I don't really know.

You might also just rewrite the whole spell so the barrier rating thing goes away. It might make more sense for shape water to be a sustained spell (hmm unless this spell already is sustained) since it won't hold its shape by itself.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Jan 26 2004, 08:51 PM
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Shape spells are sustained. When dropped, the material behaves as it naturally would in such a shape. Your water art will splash, a gravel sculpture will crumble, but a stone or clay construct may stay.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 26 2004, 08:57 PM
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Using the Cannon Companion Surface to Underwater combat rules, every meter of thickness of water has a BR of 1 (-1 Power per meter of water) if you simplify it. I suppose you could make that, I dunno, BR 1 per cubic meter/1,000 liters. The CC StU combat rules aren't all that helpful...
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Xirces
post Jan 27 2004, 11:49 AM
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That sucks. I was under the impression that bullets could barely penetrate water at all - it's almost certainly a hollywoodism, but my understanding of the physics at least partially backs it up...

What would the BR rating be of custard?
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2004, 11:58 AM
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Blood Magic and a "Shape Flesh" spell with a sustaining foci. :evil:
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 01:21 PM
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I couldn't find any data for effective underwater range of common small arms. I think accuracy and penetration potential are lost first, but if the bullet actually hits it will still be dangerous quite a distance underwater. 5-10 meters underwater is what I'd guess for small arms effective range underwater if I had to hazard a guess. Pistols at the lowest end and rifles at the highest, of course, with some weapons, like HMGs, well beyond that. The actual numbers may vary +/- 75%.
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Lilt
post Jan 27 2004, 01:43 PM
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Could you use this to make a workable bridge over water? IIRC there are listed BRs needed to take particular weights. If you could use the shape water spell to effectively harden the siurface of water then it should be possible to walk/drive over the top of the water, maybe even a bridge of raised water.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 01:45 PM
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QUOTE (Lilt)
If you could use the shape water spell to effectively harden the siurface of water then it should be possible to walk over the top of the water [...]

That's what Jesus would do!
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Lilt
post Jan 27 2004, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That's what Jesus would do!
Yup. See my other post about how jesus was a Night-One Adept.
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Xirces
post Jan 27 2004, 01:58 PM
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I got bored and did a quick google. Bear in mind - I have no experience of guns or shooting (beyond what I pick up in places like this) and anything I say probably has no bearing on the real world, real use of jargon or anything besides my own twisted friends in my head.

It would appear that actually shooting into water is an almost comparible test to shooting at flesh (gelatin seems to be preferred, but presumably water is cheaper - I saw a figure that was 2.5 times difference) - the sites I found talk about bullet expansion, which I assume is what happens when it hits something solid and stops moving. Given that, as I understand it, you generally don't get exit wounds unless using a rifle, that would mean that the bullet is inside, having stopped in part of the body - obviously that's bone, plus fleshy bits, but I really doubt that you'd be looking at metres of penetration from a pistol and more like a foot (yeah, I can't decide whether I like metric or not, sue me), which is what my gut feeling said. Presumably the increased power from a larger gun would provide a proportionally smaller penetration into water.

Isn't it all to do with the way that liquids resist forces against them? It's been too long since I did physics...

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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 02:16 PM
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Water sure doesn't stop a bullet as fast as human flesh or ballistic gelatin does. Not even close, nuh-uh. Even a BB gun projectile will penetrate some 10cm/4" of water and still hit the rock bottom pretty fast, while it generally won't even penetrate your skin.

If you want to see what happens when bullets do hit ballistic gelatin, look here, under Wound Profile Illustrations. A 9x19 (common pistol caliber) FMJ/military ball ammunition will penetrate almost 70cm of ballistic gelatin, or a similar amount of flesh, and will certainly penetrate more water. Looking at the profiles, it certainly looks as though increased energy provides a proportionally smaller penetration.

Ballistic gelatin is certainly tougher than water. This site says a BB gun projectile should penetrate between 3.25 and 3.75 inches of ballistic gelatin. It will penetrate at least twice as much water. I might well have over-estimated in my first guess (5-10 meters), but it's certainly more than a meter and not tens of centimeters.

[Edit]The difference between water and ballistic gelatin will be even greater because water won't provide enough resistance for some/many of the rounds to expand properly, and the rifle rounds that fragment in ballistic gelatin probably won't in water.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]Google-quest continues:
The Penetration in Water cannot guide you, as the slow Part is completely different as in Flesh as Water gives no Shear Force but Flesh and much more Bone, does.
water penetration is 1.55 X 10% gell penetration
Other sites gave numbers such as Penetration in 10% Ballistic Gelatin = 1.5 x Penetration in Milk = 1.8 x Penetration in Water.

So small arms would be effective underwater up to 1 - 1.5 meters. Heavier rounds penetrate water even better, so an assault rifle will be bad but large-caliber rifle will be very good.[/Edit #2]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 27 2004, 02:30 PM
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Xirces
post Jan 27 2004, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

So small arms would be effective underwater up to 1 - 1.5 meters. Heavier rounds penetrate water even better, so an assault rifle will be bad but large-caliber rifle will be very good.

Cool. Those were the sorts of things I'd been looking at, but had skimmed the pages and picked out a few numbers (at random and without understanding what I was looking at). I'm at work and get funny looks when looking at guns :eek:

1m sounds about right though which means that a diving character can't be hurt by guys on the surface with (little) guns.

Thanks.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 02:55 PM
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I'd still wait on Raygun or someone else for an affirmative answer. But it's a fair bet that a few meters of water above you makes you proof against surface-fired small-arms.
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