IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Streamlining the game
Icephisherman
post Aug 16 2009, 03:49 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 17-April 08
Member No.: 15,909



So as a GM I've come to the conclusion that when I run a Shadowrun game I would like to make the game go faster. I find that I'm often completely and totally bogged down by rules, modifiers, etc and it can grind a game to a halt while I look something up. Often times I fix this by running my gutter run campaigns which means that it brings down the complication to a more managable level.

For example, instead of taking all of my dice out and rolling umpteen d6's I'll roll before hand and have everything available or I'll use a computer generated dice program.

I'll also limit the amount of money someone can spend at chargen from 50 BP down to 20 BP and reduce availability level from eight to six (except in the case of hackers and riggers). This means that less of the fancy stuff is available which gives me an easier time.

I'm just looking for time savers so I can spend more time on running the game and less time figuring out the math.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 16 2009, 03:56 PM
Post #2


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
I'm just looking for time savers so I can spend more time on running the game and less time figuring out the math.

I'd almost recommend having two people to run the game. Have your normal GM role take up the creative part of the game while a 'Vice GM' exists only to track mechanical aspects of the game for both the GM and the players. Good luck finding someone that want's to Vice GM.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowPavement
post Aug 16 2009, 04:15 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 211
Joined: 11-April 03
From: Maine
Member No.: 4,431



I almost never use situational modifiers when I run a game except for wounds. Though I do take into account any modifiers that I can during game prep. But once the dice start flying things go too fast to bother looking things up. If a character is in a situation where something is going to be harder or easier I just adjust the threshold by a resonable amount.

My game time is too short to waist it looking up modifiers so I just go with it. The base mechainic is very streamlined and creates fast game play if you let it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wylie
post Aug 16 2009, 04:47 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 150
Joined: 4-November 08
Member No.: 16,567



I am the same. i rarely worry about modifers other then wound. only time i will stop to double check something is if it will be a gamebreaker , ie PC may die, completing critical task, etc. or its rule a I rarely use
even on lot of checks i say either you do it, or here is the info you find.
at times, i roll several combat rolls while i wait for the player decide what they are doing, so as soon as they figure out what they did, i can say if they hurt the guy or not
and i just started, on trial run, limiting the time the players have to figure what they are doing during combat. a minute or 2 is fine as they state their action and get dice together, but when they sit there trying to get a viewpoint from every angle for like 5 or more minutes, i say that the character con't figure out what to do and move to the next player. combat takes long enough in shadowrun
on extend tests during downtime, just the 4 dice = 1 success ruling. makes it so easy to figure out how long it takes on average to work on something. but then one player had to roll and he was stoked when he built some glasses with some serious enhancements in like 4 hours or something, a very short time for the job required

most combats, any init. ties goes to the players giving them 1st shot at the guy who is as fast they are
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
vladski
post Aug 16 2009, 05:13 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 350
Joined: 20-August 06
Member No.: 9,176



I too drop some modifiers.  Partially to save time or not over-tax my memory, but also because I think some of them are sorta silly.  

One that I have never applied since I started running SR over a decade ago is the "Friends in melee" modifiers. I mean, seriously, if a person has been ganged up on by 3 or 4 others, they are already in a dire situation.  Why add to the dilemna?  I jsut never ever quite got he whole point of that particular mod.

Like all GMs I forget to apply mods sometimes.  It happens.  If a player catches it and applies it and it's in severe detriment to his character I usually award them an extra karma at the end of the session for their honesty.* I usually get the majority of the gun stuff, reach, cover and so forth but the one I am most guilty about not applying is the visibility modifiers.  I simply jsut forget htem in the heat of battle.  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)  I think it's because in my mind's eye I have such a vibrant visual of what's going on and where each PC and NPC is I jsut don't think about them not seeing each other as well through, say, the dimly lit fog of the alley.

Vlad

*  Limit one karma per session per character.  Offer may be discontinued at anytime if it suits the GMs purpose. Not valid with any other offers. Special resrictions may apply.  Not valid in all states. Never deal with a dragon.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Aug 16 2009, 06:56 PM
Post #6


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



SR4 is too complicated for you, and needs more streamlining? Seriously?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kevin Adams
post Aug 16 2009, 07:03 PM
Post #7


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 32
Joined: 19-November 08
From: NE Ohio
Member No.: 16,612



How long have you been GMing SR4?

I just started though i've been a follower of SR since the 1st ed. My players also are new to SR4 if not SR in general.

For me i have to get familiar with just about everything. I know of the modifiers but only apply when really needed.
like trying to snipe someone in fog for instance. If you are new to it like me its going to take a bit to get up to speed.
Them sometimes you just have to wing it for the sake of having fun.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Aug 16 2009, 08:17 PM
Post #8


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



Well, you can try forcing your players to shave and wax their heads for less wind resistance, but that's about the only streamlining I can think of that can happen at a game table.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Icephisherman
post Aug 16 2009, 08:35 PM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 17-April 08
Member No.: 15,909



QUOTE (Kevin Adams @ Aug 16 2009, 03:03 PM) *
How long have you been GMing SR4?


About a year now. Mostly play by post.

And CanRay?

You are the best person.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Aug 16 2009, 09:49 PM
Post #10


Street Doc
*******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,508
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



I too tend to de-emphasize modifiers, which is to say that I don't totally discount them, but I don't spend a lot of time crunching the numbers. When the focus of the game becomes modifiers (which is a frequent occurrence with certain types of players) it really becomes an exercise in futility. When you think about it there is a gadget or spell or something that negates just about every modifier, so a well-equipped PC will have an answer to anything the GM throws his way. GM says "darkness" PC says "low-light vision"; GM says "range" PC says "mag vision", GM says "cover" PC says "smartgun" and so on and so on and 5 minutes later you are basically back to the player rolling his base DP usually with a few bonus dice.

So I tend to leave DPs as they are except for major factors that skew things one way or the other. Damage mods are a good example. Cover is another. Trying to fix a drone without any access to tools. Called shots. Stuff like that. I tend to allow the PCs any bonuses they get from something they payed for (nuyen, karma, BP or what have you) so long as their DPs remain reasonable (min-maxed PCs are a whole other topic). Most other things I just estimate and keep going.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Totentanz
post Aug 16 2009, 10:07 PM
Post #11


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 73
Joined: 1-August 09
From: ATX
Member No.: 17,457



I don't know if you have your players pre-roll, but if you trust them to be honest it can be a huge help. While they are waiting for others to do their actions have them roll their dice so when it comes around to them they can just list numbers and description. If one of their buddies kills their target or the situation changes, just apply the roll to their new target. It sometimes leads to frustrating situations, such as having a great roll and the fight finishing before it comes up, but at a full table it can make the difference. In addition to pre-rolling, have them look up stuff in the books while they wait. If they want to take some special action, they need to know how it is done by the time it gets to them, or they have to default to something else. It encourages the players to learn the material. Additionally, require them to have the book reference marked in case you want to review it.

My group also uses a dray erase board to post relevant information during the game, especially combat. For instance, if three of the enemies are behind cover, note it on the chart. Then the players can look up there rather than having to ask if they forget.

You can also make cheat sheets with all the commonly used modifiers, print them out, and hand them to each player. That can cut down on book referencing considerably, which makes all the difference in a chaotic combat scene.

Hopefully they also keep track of their common DP's, including mods from gear. If not, smack them gently with a dice bag and tell them to do it.

Of course, removing certain modifiers from the game or lumping them all under one category is also helpful.

Hope that helps.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2009, 12:00 AM
Post #12


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
SR4 is too complicated for you, and needs more streamlining? Seriously?

You'll notice that almost everyone here says to reduce (or ignore) modifiers. That seems to say that playing the game as written - with full use of the modifiers is too complex and does need streamlining for the majority of those posting. And since Dumpshockers tend to represent the more die-hard faction of SR gamers, I'd argue that the average gamer out might find SR's mechanics to be a chore badly in need of streamlining.

Beyond dice pool modifers, I'll throw in that I find the whole Initiative and IP system to be counter to my fun, and the fact that the actions are poorly defined - or sometimes too restrictively defined doesn't help much either.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Aug 17 2009, 12:41 AM
Post #13


Street Doc
*******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,508
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



Critias: "Too complicated" and "more complicated than desired" are entirely different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Falconer
post Aug 17 2009, 03:21 AM
Post #14


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Validating
Posts: 2,283
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 13,662



I'm looking at my SR4a book now. One of the BIGGEST things I really like is that they've made the skill section of the rulebook MUCH easier to read. The relevant charts are right there right w/ the skills. Which eliminates a LOT of the section flipping and where the hell is this found problems that used to come up.

I'm wondering how much of the problem comes from poor editing and layout in the prior book making things hard to read and find.


Catalyst is BADLY guilty of this in the battletech line of books right now.
Charts which should be single line entries end up being 3 different charts on 3 different pages... and the rules and equipment descriptions are in Total War, while the construction rules are in TechManual. It pretty much MANDATES the use of design software, simply because that collects all the information in one place. Aerospace fighter combat is a complete mess w/ rules scattered across multiple sections and one of the worst editting jobs I've ever seen.


Also, if you were to make up a streamlined situational mod chart to hand to players. What would it look like? That's a big question.

IMO: I'd keep visibility mods, I'd keep cover as it is in 4a (defense pool bonus rather than attack penalty). In opposed tests, unless it's a player specific penalty (like vision mods)... I think it's generally better to add dice to one side, or the other rather than subtract one from one (excepting self-inflicted player actions like called shots).

Part of me wants to see how much the SR4a book fixes thing and helps streamline things w/ it's changes.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2009, 04:08 AM
Post #15


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
Part of me wants to see how much the SR4a book fixes thing and helps streamline things w/ it's changes.

Too little, too late for me. The game needs a new engine and the folks at Catalyst don't seem inclined to do that, so I'll find something else on my own (or with help from others here).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Falconer
post Aug 17 2009, 04:40 AM
Post #16


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Validating
Posts: 2,283
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 13,662



Don't hijack someone elses thread, just because you're a bitter troll HappyDaze.


The game doesn't need a new engine (which would mean an entirely new edition), I've seen plenty of other engines in plenty of other systems. Games which do like you were saying in your other thread... Everything from 7 seas, to L5r, deadlands, and much beyond. There is no game which I've seen yet which takes such a fundamentally simple dice concept as SR4 did. Good luck finding your new 'perfect' system. (better yet, go diceless and go pure storyteller that seems to be what you want).


My point is quite simple... SR4a is FAR more readable and understandable than the original book is. I give the editors and layout guys very high marks on this score.


Here's something to keep in mind... if someone's going to leave. Leave. If they keep popping up, they're merely looking for attention and probably should be ignored.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2009, 05:36 AM
Post #17


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



Falconer, drop your personal attacks against me. I'm not trolling, and I'm not violating the board rules. You're being rude towards me just because you disagree with me. That's actually a bit worse than anything I've been doing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Aug 17 2009, 06:18 AM
Post #18


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



Quite a few people here are saying they drop the modifiers.

I'll grant you that it takes a while to learn them all and it really helps to have some summary sheets printed up and next to you while you run the game, but I find the modifiers an important part of the system. The reason being is that they have a noticeable effect on how my players behave. Modifiers in melee for having a better fighting position? For glare? For lighting effects? If you use the modifiers, people will make interesting tactical decisions to take advantage of them. E.g. shooting out lights to reduce so that people with low-light have an advantage, seizing the higher ground, using machinery to help with the stealth rolls, etc.

They just add something, imo. Best thing to do I think, is to have printed reference sheets and to do a ten minute prep time before your session writing out relevant rules that will come up.

K.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Synner667
post Aug 17 2009, 07:09 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 946
Joined: 16-September 05
From: London
Member No.: 7,753



QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 17 2009, 05:40 AM) *
The game doesn't need a new engine (which would mean an entirely new edition), I've seen plenty of other engines in plenty of other systems. Games which do like you were saying in your other thread... Everything from 7 seas, to L5r, deadlands, and much beyond. There is no game which I've seen yet which takes such a fundamentally simple dice concept as SR4 did. Good luck finding your new 'perfect' system. (better yet, go diceless and go pure storyteller that seems to be what you want).

Except White Wolf's World of Darkness, you mean...
...Which has uses the same dice mechanics.

Or White Wolf's Trinity line, which was using those mechanics before SR v1 come to market.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GreyBrother
post Aug 17 2009, 07:52 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 619
Joined: 24-July 08
From: Resonance Realms, behind the 2nd Star
Member No.: 16,162



Yes, the nWoD System is quite simple and ease to use, especially if you consider that it is a pure storytelling game descended from a system with not so much focus on combat but instead of creating an interesting character. Just look at the Merits and Flaws, especially the social ones and compare them to Shadowruns qualitys.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
deden
post Aug 17 2009, 07:58 AM
Post #21


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9-August 09
Member No.: 17,488



QUOTE (Synner667 @ Aug 17 2009, 05:09 PM) *
Or White Wolf's Trinity line, which was using those mechanics before SR v1 come to market.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that Trinity wasn't out till 1996 or so -- even under its original Aeon name -- which is well after SR1's 1989 release.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RunnerPaul
post Aug 17 2009, 01:05 PM
Post #22


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,086
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 364



QUOTE (deden @ Aug 17 2009, 02:58 AM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that Trinity wasn't out till 1996 or so -- even under its original Aeon name -- which is well after SR1's 1989 release.


No, you've got that one right. Trinity didn't come out until the original 5 World of Darkness games had already hit the shelves, and even back in the original softcover first edition printing of Vampire, White Wolf was acknowledging the influence of Shadowrun on their own game designs, not the other way around.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Falconer
post Aug 17 2009, 11:35 PM
Post #23


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Validating
Posts: 2,283
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 13,662



Synner667:

World of Darkness uses d10's does it not. (excepting LARP which goes with the jan ken pon). I have an old Mage book a friend gave me, but haven't looked at it in ages and don't remember it having fixed target numbers.

And it's been a while, but 7 seas did the same thing as prior edition shadowrun using d10's (variable target #, reroll 10's).

The only other game besides SR in it's various incarnations which uses fistfulls of d6's that I can think of is Star Wars d6. (which IIRC used a roll them all then add them all like calculating damage in DnD).


When it comes to systems for quickly scaling results... Roll X dice, and count those over a fixed TN is pretty fast one of the fastest ways I've seen it done. (sum is a pain, as the math challenged always have trouble doing it quickly).

Even d20, it seems people spend forever trying to puzzle out what the mods are when they roll so they know exactly what to add to the dice roll. (even there I prefer 2d10 to 1d20 because of the bell curve it puts in the results).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Totentanz
post Aug 17 2009, 11:55 PM
Post #24


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 73
Joined: 1-August 09
From: ATX
Member No.: 17,457



The WW analogy is apt. The basic set up of the WW system is rolling Attribute+skill +/-modifiers. The main difference is d6 and d10. The math works out differently, but the basic concept is the same.

Trinity did come out in 1996, well after the launch of the WoD line. The Trinity system is just the WoD system with the target number ("difficulty") set at a permanent 7. Rather than raising or lowering the difficulty or the number of dice, the ST sets a number of successes necessary, mechanically exactly like a Threshold. The number of stated modifiers in the rules are slim. Mostly the game just instructs the ST to adjust modifiers based on the circumstances, with some guidelines.

The combat system is similar for the same reasons the basic systems are similar. SR's system is more complicated and robust. It's really a matter of style. If you want to play a game that focuses on the story over the rules, with built-in flexibility for removing or simplifying, WW is a fine system. If you enjoy digging your teeth into the combat numbers and having to think tactically, SR definitely has advantages.

WW has its own issues, of course, and I'm not saying it is superior. It is generally more stream-lined.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
underaneonhalo
post Aug 18 2009, 05:58 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 144
Joined: 19-June 06
From: CAS baby
Member No.: 8,736



QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 16 2009, 11:56 AM) *
I'd almost recommend having two people to run the game. Have your normal GM role take up the creative part of the game while a 'Vice GM' exists only to track mechanical aspects of the game for both the GM and the players. Good luck finding someone that want's to Vice GM.


I vice DM in my friends D&D3.5 game. I'm a player so I don't know any non player information so I just help wrangle the players when we have a large group and resolve rules questions when he's busy doing something more important. Basically my job is to keep the players from all yelling at him at once. I know I hate it when I'm looking frantically through my notes for something only to constantly be asked questions that aren't relevant to what's going on.

Back to SR! For environmental modifiers I always put them in the margins of my notes for an area. For things I can't really plan for I just ignore them if they aren't major. I don't think figuring out how much cover a potted plant gives a guy while he's running past it really effects anything, I will using the running modifier though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 10:46 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.