Concealability, Trying to return to older days Options

[Ol' Scratch]

Why do people say machine pistols are so much bigger than normal pistols? Some are, sure, but I know Glock has a few that are the size of light pistols.

That's what I personally hate about SR4's concealability rules. They're based on weapon class rather than the weapon itself. It's one of the few stats that should be individualized rather than generalized unlike, say, Damage Codes.

[Kerenshara]

Using the existing rules, Kerenshara rolls better than 14 dice to conceal an object. Armor accessory conceal holster is -3 to the observer, Light Pistol is -2, Modification to Dual Clip is +2, no modifier for the silencer. So even patting me down, the goon's having to beat a threshold of about 5 with zeroed mods. Most NPCs aren't toting those kinds of dice pools for tactile, and with a quick visual scan (no reason to examine me in detail out of a crowd of twenty others in passing, right?) they're down -6 dice to their pool trying to hit those 5 successes... and she doesn't even wear a Longcoat of Concealment.

Now, I'm joyfully taking advantage of the rules as they stand (to the complete vexation of my GM) because we haven't managed to blage something together yet. When you can get a guard's DP down to fewer total dice than they need hits passing a mad-immune, RF-shielded, hermetically sealed ammo hold-out-pistol through a physical pat-down at the club or meet with Johnson, well, now it's getting a little silly.

And for those who are wondering, that's Palming (Legerdemain) 4, not wicky super Skill Adept stuff.

That's why I am looking so closely at Concealability. I'd like to be able to conceal weapons about myself, but as is, the guard's haven't got a chance.

(As an aside: If you're wearing a miniskirt (or a kilt for the gentlemen), and they're doing pat-downs in public, are they actually sticking their hands up between your thighs? I know it's the dark future, but I can't see the nicer clubs going for that.)

[remmus]

Why do people say machine pistols are so much bigger than normal pistols? Some are, sure, but I know Glock has a few that are the size of light pistols.

That's what I personally hate about SR4's concealability rules. They're based on weapon class rather than the weapon itself. It's one of the few stats that should be individualized rather than generalized unlike, say, Damage Codes.

best would be to increase or decrease a bonus depending on how you conseal it, under a coat any light, heavy and machine pistol for example would work as the should, while shoving it down your pants should give a redused consealment for a Hammerli 620S but not for a Fichetti Security 600

[Kerenshara]

Why do people say machine pistols are so much bigger than normal pistols? Some are, sure, but I know Glock has a few that are the size of light pistols.

That's what I personally hate about SR4's concealability rules. They're based on weapon class rather than the weapon itself. It's one of the few stats that should be individualized rather than generalized unlike, say, Damage Codes.

Look in Arsenal at the FN 5-7C. It took me forever to figure out what the drek THAT was. It's an autofire version of the FN Five-seveN pistol (Medium Pistol by the rules I'm playing around with), and it's more compact than almost anything I've seen lately AND very rounded in contour, making it very easy to conceal generally (the real weapon I mean). And in the older editions, they were the size of regular pistols, if on the heftier side of the scale.

[Kerenshara]

Here is what I put together for my campaign

[ Spoiler ]

Cavalier Safeguard -4
Defiance EX Shocker -4
Defiance Protector -4
Jupiter Taser Club 0
Yamaha Pulsar -4
Ares Streetline Special -4
Cavalier Scout -5
Fichetti Tiffani Needler -4
Fichetti Tiffani Self-Defender -4
Morrisey Elan -4
Raecor Sting -5
Walther Palm Pistol -4
Ares Light Fire 70 -3
Ceska vz /120 -2
Colt America L36 -2
Fichetti Security 600 -2
Hammerli 620S -2
Seco LD-120 -2
Shiawese Armaments Puzzler -2
Walther PB-120 -3
Walther Secura Kompakt -3
Yamaha Sabura Fubuki -2
Ares Predator -1
Ares Predator 2 -1
Ares Viper Slivergun -2
Beretta 101T -2
Beretta 200ST -1
Browning Max-Power -1
Fichetti Security 500 -2
Fichetti Securty 500A -1
Morrisey Elite -2
Nitama NeMax -2
Ruger Thunderbolt -1
Ares Predator 3 0
Ares Predator IV 0
Ares WW Infiltrator 0
Browning Ultra-Power -2
Colt Government 2066 0
Colt Manhunter 0
Eichito Hatamoto II 0
HK Urban Fighter 0
Morrisey Alta -1
Savalette Guardian +1
Soviet PSK-3 Collapsible Heavy Pistol 0
Walther Secura -1
Cavalier Deputy 0
Colt Asp -1
Ruger Super Warhawk +1
Taurus Multi-6 0
Taurus Multi-6 0
Ares Crusader 0
Ceska Black Scorpion 0
Fichetti Executive Action -1
FN 5-7C -2
Glock Model 18C -1
Soviet PPSK-4 Collapsible Machine Pistol 0
Steyr TMP 0
Ares Executive Protector 0
Beretta Model 70 +3
Colt Cobra TZ-110 +3
Colt Cobra TZ-115 +3
Colt Cobra TZ-118 +3
FN P93 Praetor +4
FN Uzi IV +3
HK 227X +4
HK MP-5 TX +3
HK UMP45X +4
HK Urban Combat +3
Ingram Smartgun X +3
Ingram SuperMach 100 +3
Ingram Warrior-10 +3
Sandler TMP +3
SCK Model 100 +4
Colt M24A3 +4
HK G12A3z +5
Soviet AK-97C +5
Ares Alpha +6
Ares High Velocity Weapon +6
Colt M23 +6
Colt M23A3 +7
FN HAR +6
HK GM38 +5
HK GM38 +6
HK GM38 +8
HK XM30 +5
HK XM30 +7
HK XM30 +7
HK XM30 +8
HK XM30 +7
Nitama Optimum II +6
Nitama Optimum II +6
Sernopal vz/88V +6
Soviet AK-97 +6
Soviet AK-98 7
Steyr AUG-CSL +4
Steyr AUG-CSL +5
Steyr AUG-CSL +6
Steyr AUG-CSL +7
Mannlicher Wildhunter +7
PJSS Elephant Rifle +8
Remington 750 +6
Remington 950 +7
Ruger 100 +6
Steyr Scout +5
Ares Desert Strike +7
Barrett Model 121 +10
HK PSG Enforcer +10
Ranger Arms SM-4 +9
Walther MA-2100 +8
Ares Auto-Assault 16 +5
Boyds & Richards Desperado +5
Defiance T-250 +4
Enfield AS-7 +5
Franchi SPAS-22 +5
Mossberg AM-CMDT +6
Mossberg Super Shorty Assault Shotgun +3
N/A Street Sweeper +3
PJSS Model 55 Shotgun +6
Remington 890 +5
Remington 990 +6
Remington Roomsweeper +2
Ares MP-LMG +8
GE Vindicator Minigun +8
Ingram White Knight +8
Shiawese Armaments Nemesis LMG +8
Ares Stoner M202 +9
FN MAG-5 +9
Ultimax MMG +10
Ares Stoner M107 +11
Ruhtmetall SF20 +10
Soviet RPK HMG +11
Ultimax HMG-2 +11

Great! Except a lot of those numbers don't coincide with the older stats that were canon (where my problem is coming in). How did you come by it?

[Shinxy]

I always thought the Concealability attribute of firearms under SR2 and 3 was pretty silly... it's an overly complex mechanic for the fairly everyday action of wearing a concealed firearm. Personally, unless my characters are going through a pat-down, I ignore all of it completely. If I judge they need to be armed for the next scene, they're armed. If they shouldn't be, they get spotted. If it's a toss up I might make some rolls, but if they've got a pistol and they're wearing a coat over it I'll probably say automatic success. SMG or bigger is probably auto-fail unless they're wearing a long coat. I just fudge it. Calculating the how concealable each illicit item my characters are wearing is seems like game time that could be better spent moving the story along, to be honest.

[Warlordtheft]

In SR4, however, I don't really have any nice way of performing such a mass check -- at least not anywhere I've seen in writing anyway (maybe they're in some other book that I haven't read...). I either have to make individual rolls, each modified by whatever factors apply (general category modifier, lined coat, weapon modifier, concealable holster, or whatever) -- which is a major pain -- or I have to use some kind of homebrew kludge. I've tried using the lowest modifier and having hits count as items detected, but I dunno... It strikes me that lugging around an assault rifle doesn't make spotting that chip in your sock any easier. Using the highest modifier, you have equally unrealistic results, with characters hiding away tiny items to conceal that heavy automatic shotgun they're packing.

As you need only 1 success to spot it, using the 4:1 auto rule for NPC's is a good way to do a mass check.

Example-Joe sec guard with 2 in perception and 3 intuition = 5 dice (1 success).
KT Runner has palming 0 and agiility of 5 = 4 dice (1 success)

Throw in mods the +2 for a Machine pistol doesnt add up to much. The -2 dice for a concealable holster, similarly does little depending on the characters involved.
A +6 for the assault rifle, however means that Joe sec guard will notice (even with a concealble holster (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) ).

[McAllister]

Raizer, the world needs more people like you. Especially because you had the good sense to leave off any and all assault cannons.

EDIT: Kerenshara, how do you get a RF-shielded gun? And does that protect it against millimeter-wave detection systems? Because my biggest beef with the concealment system is that a rating 4 cyberware scanner finds every damn weapon on you, every damn time, and I can't figure out how to beat it without resorting to deltaware cyberimplant weaponry.

[Raizer]

Great! Except a lot of those numbers don't coincide with the older stats that were canon (where my problem is coming in). How did you come by it?

Well, I mostly extrapolated based on SR4 modifiers and compared it to the scale of SR2 & 3 modifiers. There was of course some guesswork in there based on descriptions, pictures, etc.

[the_real_elwood]

I really don't think that it should be any surprise that a heavy pistol in a concealed holster under a long coat is pretty concealed. And if you want to get really technical, having a high body (read: a really big, bulky character) should provide a bonus too. It's a lot easier to conceal a pistol on a 250 lb guy than it is on a 150 lb guy. But I think the thing you're missing with this talk of concealed holsters and long coats is that, if you walk into a place and look like a guy who's gonna cause trouble, they're gonna make you take the coat off, or give you a more thorough check, or any of the above. And then you've got chemsniffers and MAD scanners.

[Kerenshara]

Raizer, the world needs more people like you. Especially because you had the good sense to leave off any and all assault cannons.

EDIT: Kerenshara, how do you get a RF-shielded gun? And does that protect it against millimeter-wave detection systems? Because my biggest beef with the concealment system is that a rating 4 cyberware scanner finds every damn weapon on you, every damn time, and I can't figure out how to beat it without resorting to deltaware cyberimplant weaponry.

There's commentary about it in Runner's Companion, and I need to dig up the cite but I don't have the time right now. Basic rules were in Arsenal though under vehicle mods where it discusses smuggling compartments. In RC, they mention putting the same feature into bags and coats. It makes it impossible to quick-draw, but means you can sneak it into a building if it's small (pistol size and smaller in a coat, SMG in a bag unless you break down the AR). Now, that does nothing for X-Ray or the related technologies. And a gun still looks a lot like a gun in a bag under X-Ray.

[Kerenshara]

I really don't think that it should be any surprise that a heavy pistol in a concealed holster under a long coat is pretty concealed. And if you want to get really technical, having a high body (read: a really big, bulky character) should provide a bonus too. It's a lot easier to conceal a pistol on a 250 lb guy than it is on a 150 lb guy. But I think the thing you're missing with this talk of concealed holsters and long coats is that, if you walk into a place and look like a guy who's gonna cause trouble, they're gonna make you take the coat off, or give you a more thorough check, or any of the above. And then you've got chemsniffers and MAD scanners.

Oh, no argument. I was just trying to come up with a basis to loosely convert the old thresholds into modern DP adjustments.

"Sir, would you please place any metalic items you might be carrying, keeys, loose change into the basket and step foward and open your coat... Holy shit!"