Man this game has changed, Re-reading the 1st Edition rules Options

[Bull]

Wow. I'm prepping an SR4A game that will start off in 2050. As such, I've been boning up on the SR1 rules a little bit, mainly to capture the feel of the game from back then, and to remind myself of what was (and what wasn't) in the game yet.

I'm amazed, honestly, at how different the game has become. Even stuff I took for granted from early editions, like the initiative rules, are vastly different (YOu got an extra action for every *7* or so points above 10 he rolls... So you only needed a 23 to get 4 Actions. The charts actually a bit wonky.) EVen from 1st to 2nd to 3rd edition, there were some big changes.

I'm also amused by the lack of Simple vs Complex actions. Guns all just fired once.

Just amused.

[Method]

Reading your post made me think of post apocalyptic movies like Water World, where feral people always find some machine based on ancient (to them) technology and are all puzzled and bemused about how it works.

"What is this dice mechanic? It is strange and unlike what I have come to know..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bull]

It;s just funny how many little mechanics and such I've totally forgotten about. Granted, I never played much SR1... Made a few characters, loved the setting, but didn't really dive in and seriously play till 2nd edition.

And trying to reconcile the SR4A rules to the SR1 style is... Interesting. I'm kinda praying no one wants to play a hacker or rigger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Come on, Bull; Not ALL guns fired just once... that's what a reactive trigger was for! And who left home without Firepower^TM Ammo in their magazines? Now you've got me thinking back to the old stuff. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be nostalgic or shudder. Back in 1st Ed, Deckers (not hackers, you impertinent young pups!) were code wizards, no script kiddies playing hacker on their Super-Ultra-Mega-iThingie2071. Remember code carriers? Remember having to worry about storage memory? When Alphaware was new and wiz? When having a PC decker meant having the group go out for pizza while they spent two hours rolling 2.674 pounds of d6's into the top of an Axis & Allies box?

Or as we got into 2nd Ed, when Bioware made an appearance? And the new Deltaware?! The new CRANIAL cyberdeck? Or the early tactical computers? Cyberjacks with different throughput speeds and varying amounts of on-board storage? Remember when your DNI had chip slots?

Do you remember early Initiation, how none of us had a clue? The first time you tried to use the old rules to design a spell? How about designing an actual Matrix Map with the physical connections (including those pesky 1-way lines) and the dead ends like a maze? Remember the wonder the first time you picked up a clip of APDS ammo? Wasn't THAT wiz? Or packing Ex-Ex ammo in your Walther to geek the awakened rabbits eating your carrots? How about salivating over the million nuyen laser rifle put there just to tease us?

Yeah, me too. Been there, done that, got the drekky quality slotting t-shirt that faded, ran and shrank the first time I washed it.

But the idea of trying to run SR1 (2050) with SR4? Now I'm intrigued. Let us know how it goes.

Although I occasionally wax poetic and pine for some of the early flavor of the game, I wouldn't trade the design efficiency and game flow of SR4x for any of the older versions.

[Bull]

YOu know, I remember the Reactive triggers (And you're the second person to bring them up), but I'll be damned if I can find them in SR1 or the SSC.

Anyways, I'm setting the game in early 2050. I'm tweaking chargen a little bit, as well as a few other rules, and I'll likely be giving out a little extra karma per run. I'm also planning to track the timeline, so as books were "published" in game time, those materials become available for the players. So to start with, only SR1 gear is available (I'm gonna fudge things a little if anyone wants to play an Adept, since the Grimoire is technically a 2050 supplment, but doesn't have any solid dates listed inside).

So for example, SSC doesn't become available till 2051. Shadowtech doesn't drop till 2052. Etc.

EVerything else isn't too bad, just limitations on whats available, and some tweaking of prices and such (I'm actually using SR1 pricing for everything, and have redone how you get money at Chargen to open that Million Nuyen up).

SHould be interesting. NOt sure yet when the games gonna start yet, gotta find the time and all.

[eidolon]

I'd love to play in a back to the past game. Wish I lived closer dude. I've thought about running one sometime, but I've never had players well enough familiar with Shadowrun that it would give me the particular sort of fun I'd be looking for.

[Bull]

I'd love to play in a back to the past game. Wish I lived closer dude. I've thought about running one sometime, but I've never had players well enough familiar with Shadowrun that it would give me the particular sort of fun I'd be looking for.

Hey, I'm in Dayton rather than Cleveland now, so I'm almost 5 hours closer for your commute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Hey, I'm in Dayton rather than Cleveland now, so I'm almost 5 hours closer for your commute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Doesn't help me much, Bull.

[Arleigh]

What changes did you make to how some of the gear works things like smartlinks?

I ask because I'm running a 4e game right now set in 2050. The plan was for it to be a long term campaign where the characters have a chance to play thorugh some of the major events in the shadowrun timeline.

I thought that SSC was available in 2050 so I included that in the available gear in my game? Same with Rigger Black Book.

[Critias]

YOu know, I remember the Reactive triggers (And you're the second person to bring them up), but I'll be damned if I can find them in SR1 or the SSC.

Fields of Fire, IIRC.

[FlakJacket]

Was it this or later editions that had variable damage staging for different types of weapons plus so many automatic successes for damage resistance with armour? I have vague memories of troll tanks that could shrug off practically anything but it's been an absolute age since I looked at anything preceding Third Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

Fields of Fire, IIRC.

I can't find rules for reactive trigger in either SSC (V1 or 2) or FoF, but I distinctly remember that feature from back in the day (and I'm sure it was SR1). Any body else know where to find it?

And on another note: Mmmmmm... variable staging numbers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

[Bull]

Doesn't help me much, Bull.

Sorry! I can only do so much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

What changes did you make to how some of the gear works things like smartlinks?

I ask because I'm running a 4e game right now set in 2050. The plan was for it to be a long term campaign where the characters have a chance to play thorugh some of the major events in the shadowrun timeline.

I thought that SSC was available in 2050 so I included that in the available gear in my game? Same with Rigger Black Book.

One nice thing about the 1st and second edition books, all the comments in it are Time Stamped (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So you can get an idea of when the books were "published" to Shadowland, and extrapolate from there.

With SSC, the gear is actually out of "Ares America WInter Catalogue 2050", and the earliest date stamps in it are late November, 2050. I'm starting my game in January 2050, so I won;t trickle the new toys in till the end of that year.

Rigger Black Book's first posted date in 04/29/52. Shadowtech is 11/30/52.

As for Smartlinks, I'm leaving them as is, though keep in mind that most guns (if not all) in SR1 do not come Smartlink adapted. THey don't get the nifty range finders and all those gizmo's (Those were a Smartlink 2 system upgrade in Fields of Fire), but with the simplified rules for SR4, those are mostly fluff anyways now. I will, however, reduce the bonus for smartlink goggles (ANd laser sights)to +1 dice, since older systems gave a -1 vs the integrated -2.

Was it this or later editions that had variable damage staging for different types of weapons plus so many automatic successes for damage resistance with armour? I have vague memories of troll tanks that could shrug off practically anything but it's been an absolute age since I looked at anything preceding Third Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That was SR1. Obviously, since I'm playing with SR4, I'm tossing that craptasticly convoluted system out the window. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Eventually, I'm gonna work up a solid timeline for books and materials for the various editions as a reference for when stuff becomes available. I'll probably publish that up here (Or, maybe save that as an article for the upcoming Dumpshock Magazine we're doing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

Bull

[Bull]

I can't find rules for reactive trigger in either SSC (V1 or 2) or FoF, but I distinctly remember that feature from back in the day (and I'm sure it was SR1). Any body else know where to find it?

And on another note: Mmmmmm... variable staging numbers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

Yeahm I've dug through almost all the 1st ed books. UNless if was buried in one of the location books like London or Germany... It's not in any of the gear books. Fields of FIre was a 2nd edition publication, and by that point SS vs SA had been established in SR2.

[Glyph]

I don't have the SSC any more, but IIRC, the reactive trigger was a feature on one of the pistols (the Browning Ultra-Power, I think?), and that was where they mentioned that you could modify other pistols so that they could have reactive triggers. So that's why you're not finding it - it didn't have its own separate entry.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Or as we got into 2nd Ed, when Bioware made an appearance? And the new Deltaware?! The new CRANIAL cyberdeck? Or the early tactical computers? Cyberjacks with different throughput speeds and varying amounts of on-board storage? Remember when your DNI had chip slots?

Do you remember early Initiation, how none of us had a clue? The first time you tried to use the old rules to design a spell? How about designing an actual Matrix Map with the physical connections (including those pesky 1-way lines) and the dead ends like a maze? Remember the wonder the first time you picked up a clip of APDS ammo? Wasn't THAT wiz? Or packing Ex-Ex ammo in your Walther to geek the awakened rabbits eating your carrots? How about salivating over the million nuyen laser rifle put there just to tease us?

Yeah, me too. Been there, done that, got the drekky quality slotting t-shirt that faded, ran and shrank the first time I washed it.

Aaah, now you made me feel like a 14 year-old full of acnes again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Bull]

I don't have the SSC any more, but IIRC, the reactive trigger was a feature on one of the pistols (the Browning Ultra-Power, I think?), and that was where they mentioned that you could modify other pistols so that they could have reactive triggers. So that's why you're not finding it - it didn't have its own separate entry.

Ahh, thank you!

Whats even better is that while the Browning Ultra Power has this feature, the comment about the cost and that any weapon can get it is actually in the Shadowtalk under the Predator (Which also talks about modifying guns to use the new Firepower ammo). That's annoying...

And nice, my PCs get to wait a year before they can make their guns able to shoot twice a round (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

For the record, it's basically +25% cost of the gun to have the Reactive Trigger system installed.

Bull

[Method]

...the reactive trigger was a feature on one of the pistols (the Browning Ultra-Power, I think?)

Ah! You are correct sir. I had a vague recollection of such, but I thought it was the Beretta 200-ST. The reactive trigger was ret-conned out of SSC V2 (after the switch to SR2).

[MJBurrage]

Street Samurai Catalog (first print):

• Page 18: "All single-shot weapons can be equipped with reactive triggers like on the Browning Ultra-Power. The weaponsmith cost of this upgrade is roughly 25 percent of the base weapon cost."
• Page 20: "The Browning Ultra-Power fires two shots per action, with a recoil modification of +1."

Edit: I always take too long to write my posts, beaten to it above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bull]

Ah! You are correct sir. I had a vague recollection of such, but I thought it was the Beretta 200-ST. The reactive trigger was ret-conned out of SSC V2 (after the switch to SR2).

Yeah, it basically became standard on all weapons after 2053 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[FlakJacket]

Eventually, I'm gonna work up a solid timeline for books and materials for the various editions as a reference for when stuff becomes available. I'll probably publish that up here (Or, maybe save that as an article for the upcoming Dumpshock Magazine we're doing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

Well Gurth has already done that for what looks like most of the Second Edition sourcebooks as well as the published adventures so that should give you a fairly large head start. Any that he missed I'm sure the usual forumites can help you out with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Yeah it was a huge shock to me. Fortunately when I started with 1e... I hadn't seen a thing in years, outside of rarely looking at copies of the books in the gameshops. Fortunately 4e was fairly easy to pick up. And while I have to admit it has it's little bugaboos, I find them a lot better than 2e and 3e now that I've had time to look at those in a bit more detail.

Glancing a SR1 book (since I keep it in the satchel w/ my SR4 books)... I'm a little amused by how little the vehicle section and some others have changed. We still have the eurocar and many other workhorses with us. Some of them are more amusing as well... the EFA fighters for a cool half million (compared to the fighter-bomber in arsenal which IIRC is 10mil).


Right now... my GM has us in a similar situation. We're running a quite a few years back. So far, the retrotech issues have mostly shown up as a problem of no that equipment isn't available. (or downgraded). I guess I'm lucky in that aspect I got shunted into the mage role (Fallout3 "War, war never changes..." "Magic, magic never changes..." well it does, but at least I don't have to worry about losing magic/essence for silly stuff).

The one guy who wanted to play a decker though is rather hosed, as there's no good way to get him setup w/ equipment. (especially since the game's timeline moves fairly quickly and the GM has something against essence holes and replacing older cyber w/ newer cyber as the matrix changes over time).

[RunnerPaul]

I'm amazed, honestly, at how different the game has become.

And yet, large chunks of SR4A's introductory section, "Welcome to the Shadows" are quoted verbatim from SR1's intro "The Year is 2050". Aside from some shuffling of ideas up or down in the essay and minor copyediting to clean up a few of the concepts presented, they're nearly identical. Plus ca change, plus c'est meme chose. (No, wait. That's SR2.)

And while I can understand wanting to be faithful to the march of technology in the setting, I personally wouldn't wait for the rest of the SSC to drop to give the players access to Firepower Ammo, Reactive Triggers, and Securetech Clothing. Unlike the other items in the catalog, these three had always struck me as "stealth errata" to the main book, put out in a time where there was no easy way to freely distribute errata among the customerbase. Back when SR started, expensive high-end modems were 2400 baud, while the midrange ones were only 1200 (for you young whippersnappers who don't know what baud is, that's 2.4 and 1.2 kilobits per second -- get off my lawn). The majority of online services were local, with only a handful of national providers. While FASA did use one of these national providers to get feedback from its customers, they knew that only a fraction of them went online despite the major alignment along the geek axis of both the Tabletop RPG and computing hobbies. My theory is, that FASA got some harsh criticism about certain aspects of the core rules, at some point after the book had gone to press, but while SSC was in development, and they hit upon the idea of offering up the fixes in the SSC to avoid having to make such sweeping changes to the text of the core book on subsequent printings.

The Firepower rebore and the Reactive Trigger retrofit are both dirt cheap modifications compared to the effect that they have in game. It was almost a no-brainer for players to take these on every firearm that was eligible. Plus, they're both listed in a sidebar box on the same page, even though the example pistol for the reactive trigger was on another page. Why alter fundamental sections of the core rulebook, causing chaos and confusion at kitchen tables and conventions when one player shows up with a first printing and a different player shows up with a later printing, when you can write a fix in to the first sourcebook, and make it such a must-have that the players remind each other "Don't forget to take this! It's good!"

Then there's Securitech Clothing, which has a curious statement about the accuracy of the statistics for those items, unlike a rival publication. At the time the SSC came out, the only other Shadowrun "publication" with stats for armored clothing was the gear chapter of the core rulebook itself. While the statement is in the in-character fluff text of the Ares Catalog itself, it certainly comes across as FASA saying "we know the stats in the core rulebook aren't realistic, here use these instead." Then again, when the SSC was reprinted for second edition, items such as Firepower Ammunition and Reactive Triggers got labeled as "Banned in Second Edition" so that FASA wouldn't mess up the page count, or insert new content that would cause an uproar from customers who had bought the older book. Securitech Clothing was not given this treatment.

[Warlordtheft]

Fields of Fire, IIRC.

Actually, in the original (not 2nd ed-it may be blacked out in that version) SSC, page 18 (Ares Predator 2)-the cost is described in a comment made by winger. It adds 25% to the cost, and has the same effect as what is added to (of course you could add that to you panther cannon too. It was one of the few times where the comment of a poster was a rule.

[Warlordtheft]

Street Samurai Catalog (first print):

• Page 18: "All single-shot weapons can be equipped with reactive triggers like on the Browning Ultra-Power. The weaponsmith cost of this upgrade is roughly 25 percent of the base weapon cost."
• Page 20: "The Browning Ultra-Power fires two shots per action, with a recoil modification of +1."

Edit: I always take too long to write my posts, beaten to it above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Beat me to it too-I should read all comments before posting! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)