shapeshifter characters - Dumpshock Forums

shapeshifter characters, does anybody use them?

nezumi View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 09:25 PM Post #51
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	This might be from second edition, but I believe on the astral you appear how you think you should look, your own ideal self. Assumedly, other people would see you this way as well (there's nothing to indicate to the contrary). Ergo, people on the astral see everything as it believes itself to be, which usually would probably be the person's 'true nature' (or at least the correct species).

Shanshu Freeman

Feb 15 2004, 10:17 PM

Post #52

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QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 15 2004, 09:25 PM)

This might be from second edition, but I believe on the astral you appear how you think you should look, your own ideal self. Assumedly, other people would see you this way as well (there's nothing to indicate to the contrary). Ergo, people on the astral see everything as it believes itself to be, which usually would probably be the person's 'true nature' (or at least the correct species).

what about people suffering from deep psychosis? Just because someone's ideal true self is a toaster, does that mean they appear astrally as a toaster? :wobble:

k1tsune

Feb 15 2004, 10:27 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman)

QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 15 2004, 09:25 PM)

This might be from second edition, but I believe on the astral you appear how you think you should look, your own ideal self. Assumedly, other people would see you this way as well (there's nothing to indicate to the contrary). Ergo, people on the astral see everything as it believes itself to be, which usually would probably be the person's 'true nature' (or at least the correct species).

what about people suffering from deep psychosis? Just because someone's ideal true self is a toaster, does that mean they appear astrally as a toaster? :wobble:

I once had a character in a story who, due to a spell gone awry, believed that he was a glass of orange juice. He was always paranoid that someone would spill him.

Shanshu Freeman

Feb 15 2004, 10:35 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (k1tsune)

QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman @ Feb 15 2004, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 15 2004, 09:25 PM)

This might be from second edition, but I believe on the astral you appear how you think you should look, your own ideal self. Assumedly, other people would see you this way as well (there's nothing to indicate to the contrary). Ergo, people on the astral see everything as it believes itself to be, which usually would probably be the person's 'true nature' (or at least the correct species).

what about people suffering from deep psychosis? Just because someone's ideal true self is a toaster, does that mean they appear astrally as a toaster? :wobble:

I once had a character in a story who, due to a spell gone awry, believed that he was a glass of orange juice. He was always paranoid that someone would spill him.

I remember hearing about that! Too funny. Didn't you say he just stood there perfectly still, freaking out?

k1tsune

Feb 15 2004, 10:36 PM

Post #55

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QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman)

QUOTE (k1tsune @ Feb 15 2004, 10:27 PM)

QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman @ Feb 15 2004, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 15 2004, 09:25 PM)

This might be from second edition, but I believe on the astral you appear how you think you should look, your own ideal self. Assumedly, other people would see you this way as well (there's nothing to indicate to the contrary). Ergo, people on the astral see everything as it believes itself to be, which usually would probably be the person's 'true nature' (or at least the correct species).

what about people suffering from deep psychosis? Just because someone's ideal true self is a toaster, does that mean they appear astrally as a toaster? :wobble:

I once had a character in a story who, due to a spell gone awry, believed that he was a glass of orange juice. He was always paranoid that someone would spill him.

I remember hearing about that! Too funny. Didn't you say he just stood there perfectly still, freaking out?

Yep. The person responsible for his state had to take care of all his needs..

nezumi

Feb 16 2004, 03:13 PM

Post #56

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (k1tsune)

QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman @ Feb 15 2004, 05:35 PM)

QUOTE (k1tsune @ Feb 15 2004, 10:27 PM)

QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman @ Feb 15 2004, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 15 2004, 09:25 PM)

This might be from second edition, but I believe on the astral you appear how you think you should look, your own ideal self. Assumedly, other people would see you this way as well (there's nothing to indicate to the contrary). Ergo, people on the astral see everything as it believes itself to be, which usually would probably be the person's 'true nature' (or at least the correct species).

what about people suffering from deep psychosis? Just because someone's ideal true self is a toaster, does that mean they appear astrally as a toaster? :wobble:

I once had a character in a story who, due to a spell gone awry, believed that he was a glass of orange juice. He was always paranoid that someone would spill him.

I remember hearing about that! Too funny. Didn't you say he just stood there perfectly still, freaking out?

Yep. The person responsible for his state had to take care of all his needs..

If someone, deep in their heart, truly and honestly believed they're a toaster, I'd say sure (largely for the amusement factor). A sentient, living, moving about toaster with an aura, but a toaster nonetheless. Then again, how many people do you see who believe they're kitchen appliances (consciously and subconsciously).

toturi

Feb 16 2004, 04:51 PM

Post #57

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QUOTE (snowRaven)

No offense toturi, but I suggest you read the chapter on Astral Perception in the BBB pg.171 again, as well as the assensing table on pg.172. For instance:

"It takes only a Free Action to see anything actually present in astral space, like spirits, barriers and other astral forms, and does not require a Perception Test unless an astral being is specifically trying to hide from you." Besides, the word 'see' being used several times throughout the text, this also states clearly that since a shapeshifter is a dual being you would see that it was present astrally clearly without a Perception test. (Assensing, however, is the 'psychic sense' you mentioned)

Nowhere I've found in any SR3 rules does it say that assensing lets you determine race or 'true nature' - if you know any place, then please tell me where to find that. The only thing regarding shapeshifters and true nature is this line in critters: "Viewing a shapeshifter in astral space reveals it's true nature" so by that you know it's a shapeshifter at first gloance (Free Action, no perception test). Then it says in Shadowrun Companion: "A shapeshifter's astral form always appear as an idealized image of it's animal form, regardless of the shapeshifter's current form."

Also, on the assensing table it says that you can determine whether Essence AND magic are higher, lower or equal to your own, so as a mage with essence six you'd see that a shapeshifter has higher essence than you, which would be impossible for any normal human.

Please refer to SR3 page 171, Astral Perception.

QUOTE

Know as "the Sight" among the Awakened, astral perception does not rely on physical vision in anyway; it is a psychic sense.

Unless the shapeshifter is specifically trying to hide, you do not need a "Perception Test" (p171 SR3).

QUOTE

Viewing a shapeshifter in astral space reveals it's true nature

Correct. If a shapeshifter was not actively hiding from you (no Perception test needed at all), you can immediately see that it is a shapeshifter.

But if it was actively hiding, then the Perception test comes into play here. And the table I gave was me abridging the Perception Success Table for Astral Perception.

As you can see from the Perception Success Table, even with 4 successes you still need an Assesing Test(the "further examination" in the table) for more specifics.

REM View Member Profile	Feb 16 2004, 06:24 PM Post #58
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 22-October 03 From: Marianna Member No.: 5,753	Yes when our shaman was astral projecting he just happened to look at my Charicter Alex who is a cat shyape shifter. Now bob the shaman has the oblivious flaw and didnt really consider what it meant. Instead he decided to pet my astral form. Our GM decided that that felt rather strange to me.

snowRaven

Feb 16 2004, 09:52 PM

Post #59

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toturi:

QUOTE

Please refer to SR3 page 171, Astral Perception.

QUOTE

Know as "the Sight" among the Awakened, astral perception does not rely on physical vision in anyway; it is a psychic sense.

Very true - astral perception has no connection with physical vision. This does not mean that you do not use vision, however. The text is completely packed with refrences to seeing and vision, and under Astral Senses on pg.173 SR3 it says "Your astral form has normal human senses of sight and hearing." Thisgoes on to talk about the other senses and mentiones assensing in a way as to imply that this is a separate, 'sixth', sense if you will.

QUOTE

Unless the shapeshifter is specifically trying to hide, you do not need a "Perception Test" (p171 SR3).

QUOTE

Viewing a shapeshifter in astral space reveals it's true nature

Correct. If a shapeshifter was not actively hiding from you (no Perception test needed at all), you can immediately see that it is a shapeshifter.

Which is what I said. But you said in your previous post you needed 5+ successes to determine that - since the perception test table you mentioned only goes to 4+, I believed you were talking about the assensing table, which goes to 5+.

QUOTE

But if it was actively hiding, then the Perception test comes into play here. And the table I gave was me abridging the Perception Success Table for Astral Perception.

Again, no offense meant, but if you were abridging the perception test table, how come you differentiated between 4 and 5 successes when there is no difference according to that?

QUOTE

As you can see from the Perception Success Table, even with 4 successes you still need an Assesing Test(the "further examination" in the table) for more specifics.

Yes, this is also true, but as you pointed out it requires the shapeshifter actively hiding (using Stealth skill, for instance) in which case the viewer does not necessarily see the shapeshifter. As to exactly what information you get with which successes is open to some interpretation:

"Something is there" - self explanatory; 'something' can mean anything.
"Something is definately there, and the perceoiver suspects what general type of thing it is." - this depends on your interpretation of 'general'. Does this differ between 'animal', 'metahuman' and 'object', or does it differ between 'human-like', 'dog-like', 'car-like'? To me, he suspects it's a person and the general size (big(troll size or so), small(dwarf size or so), medium(normal human/elf/ork size).
"The perceiver knows what type of thing it is, and suspects it's exact nature." - what is the 'exact nature' of something? For instance, what would constitute the 'exact nature' in question when viewing a shapeshifter in the astral? To me, the use of exact implies that the mage not only suspects it's a shapeshifter, he suspects it's a wolf (or whichever) shapeshifter.
"The perceiver knows what it is, but has no specifics without further information." - To me, coupled with the result given for 3 successes, this means the mage knows it's a wolf shapeshifter, but he doesn't know any more information.

To me, it seems odd to assume a mage can't identify a hiding aura with 4+ successes on a Perception test - in this case determine if the hiding thing is a dwarf, troll, seal, eagle, wolf or bear.

(All this assumes that the mage 'knows' enough to identify whatever it is he sees on sight. If he lacks the necessary skills or experience to determine what it is he is viewing, he shouldn't get the info. (for instance, if he's looking at a wolf shapeshifter and has no previous knowledge of shapeshifters and how they look astrally, simply tell him it looks like a dog-like being standing on two legs)

If you allow someone who gets 4 successes on a physical, real world, perception test to know whether the thing hiding from him is a dwarf, troll or a wolf on two legs, then you should do the same for an astral test. Or?

Corywn View Member Profile	Feb 18 2004, 06:39 PM Post #60
Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,832	Just to stir things back up, cause I like topics about Shifters (as many may recall): Don't forget the occassional LS astral patrols. They'd probably investigate just about every astral presence they see (I mean, why would John Streetcorner be astrally active midday, downtown?) and would likely return to report a shapeshifter wandering about.

REM

Feb 19 2004, 02:46 AM

Post #61

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QUOTE (Corywn)

Just to stir things back up, cause I like topics about Shifters (as many may recall):

Don't forget the occassional LS astral patrols. They'd probably investigate just about every astral presence they see (I mean, why would John Streetcorner be astrally active midday, downtown?) and would likely return to report a shapeshifter wandering about.

Of course this is why my Shifter prefers to work at night.

k1tsune View Member Profile	Feb 19 2004, 02:54 AM Post #62
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 302 Joined: 20-October 03 Member No.: 5,740	Of course, they could be patrolling at night, too. badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadger...

REM View Member Profile	Feb 19 2004, 02:59 AM Post #63
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 22-October 03 From: Marianna Member No.: 5,753	in wich case i promptly hope they go and <explitive deleted> themselves.

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