Killing hands and Adepts, Questions on new-age Ninjas Options

[Crimzero]

My first question has to do with Killing hands. When I first read it I assumed that the costs for different damage levels weren't cumulative, thinking back on it I'm not sure any more. So is it .5 for light and then another 1 for M all the way up to 4 for D?
Also do you have to buy each lvl to progress to the next or can you skip around?

If you have to buy each seperate and in order buying it all the way up seems prohibitavly expensive.

*side note*
How do Adepts stack up to the other archtypes? From my limited exposure it seems they are pretty weak compared to mages and samurai.

[Zimbabwean Aardv...]

The killing hands power cost isn't cumulative (i.e. when you buy M killing hands it costs 1, and when upgrading from L, it costs .5.)
They do seem weak to me to, although with enough karma they could be powerful. Reading other threads here seems to suggest that they measure up though. I've never actually played one.

[Solidcobra]

14 dice in one skill, THAT'S why you play a adept (6 normal, 6 from adept power, 1 from recorder and 1 from that other bioware.... forgot it's name)

[Austere Emancipa...]

Yeah, not cumulative. Just like Improved Reflexes.

You're probably thinking about Enhanced Artwinkulation. That doesn't make Killing Hands any more useful, though, since you can do that with a Dikoted Polearm just as well. Your hands are just more concealable and hard to disarm.

[Lilt]

Adepts can be pretty powerful. The advantage they have over samurai is in the fact that there is no limit to their power. They can spend ~12 karma for each initiation and get 2 stat increases and a metamagical technique. Centering gives them an immense advantage over any street-sam as a good-enough adept can avoid all-but the most crippling TN penalties. You can even center-away penalties for defaulting if you have the correct metamagical technique.

12+dice in the skill, a few dice from a (dikoted) weapon focus, 10+ combat pool, a martial art with a few maneuvers, and reduced (if any) TN penalties from centering make adepts insanely powerful in melee. Specialisation is the way to go at the start, they generalise later once they are good enough at centering to ignore the +4 to defaulting from an attribute.

[Cain]

To recap: You only have to pay the difference in costs. You can skip around all you like, although there's not much point-- if you buy Killing hands at serious, you already have Killing Hands at light. You can buy up to any level you can afford.

Where Killing Hands really comes into its own is fighting spirits. Spirits get none of their immunities versus it, and it works to full effect on the astral. An adept with Killing Hands and Astral Perception is as efficient a spirit-killer as a rabid mongoose on steroids is at killing snakes.

Adepts are not the all-purpose combat machines that sammies are, although they can easily trash them within a specialized area. A starting, BBB-only Adept can have 12 dice in a single skill, making him a deadly one-trick pony-- using some of the other books can raise that number.

[Kagetenshi]

You only pay anywhere near 12 karma for your first initiation, and then under optimal (and thus rarely-occurring) conditions. The cost for initiation goes up pretty quickly, so they stagnate just like sammies.

~J

[Moonstone Spider]

Personally I've found that Physical Adepts are somewhat more limited than other character types, mostly because about 2/3rds of the adept powers directly relate to melee combat (Killing hands, Transmit blow, Blind Fighting, Delayed Strike, etc.)

This tends to limit their options more than other archetypes, particularly since they are eating Karma to initiate and get those powers and thus don't have as much Karma to spend on improving skills as the Sammie. It's also slightly annoying that many of their powers have been duplicated by Martial Arts maneuvers (blind fighting) and Edges (Pain resistance), making them a little less special. I'd like to see "Mental Adept" skills that let them use things like the improved attribute power for social and B/R skills.

However they definetly don't get to initiate every time for 12 Karma, it goes up like all other magician types. Past 5 or 6 initiations your Adept is having to pay tons of Karma for one more point of power.

[Kagetenshi]

Traceless Walk is beautiful and nonduplicateable, though.

~J

[Shockwave_IIc]

Yes it is. but the only game mechanic i can find for it is under the tracking power in T:AL

The rest is all house ruled?

[spotlite]

I'm afraid I disagree moonstone. The powers which aren't combat related are really very cheap like the extra senses and they funciton at the maximum level of their cyber equivalent if there is one. Improved skills, centering to pilot vehicles or B/R, stealthy and athletic adaptations which have more use than combat, especially at breaking and entering... much more than a melee character if you spend your points right (and you're playing that kind of character obviously). If you want to go the combat monster route, you certainly can, and with ease at that, but you can go a number of different routes. Maybe you're just incredibly athletic and have skills to back you up, for instance?

imho there is no archetype which can lord it over another. The only character 'type' I haven't played is a ghoul or shapeshifter, because I've never had the opportunity or inclination., though I have played with both in the group. If you're talking about direct threat though...

Compared to a sammie, the adept compares very favourably. Most of the sammies toys can be bought as external portatech ™ versions or adept version, if that's what you want to build. No reason why adepts can't have all those gunnery, heavy weapon and electronics skills, they just can't do it with wires and have to do it the hard way. I've seen one adept carve up an entire 5 player team, each averaging 7 karma pool. He was two grades higher than their highest mage, making him a G5, with a KP of about 9. Designed to be slightly more powerful than any of them individually, but as a group they should've been able to take him down. They did, eventually, he was just built with the right kinds of skills, including small unit tactics and other esoteric ones and boy, did he hurt them bad before he legged it - yeah, they didn't even kill him. Stealth, improved skills and reactions, increased senses, a monowhip and a smattering of metamagic.

Compared to a mage, a physad can be their worst nightmare, and vice versa. A mage will probably hold the cards on average at the higher grades, if they live that long though. But that's mages for you...

Compared to Deckers? Well, compared to deckers they generally suck in the non-combat areas. But if you want a decker, play one, fer chrissakes, or get your adept a jack, computer skill and a deck. In which case he's probably one kick ass decker if you spend your karma right and didn't take the wrong flaws, and good luck to you with that magic and money loss.

Compared to Riggers, you can actually get a reasonably good comparison, but they'll never be quite as good with a vehicle and they certainly won't be piloting any drones with anything like the comparison. But to do this you'd still need a shedload of vehicle skills and centering for each type of vehicle to get any modifier reductions, if they applied. But they COULD do it. I'd even allow a 'Piloting Reflexes' adept power at comparable costs to the normal adept reflex enhancements if the player could pay for it, simply because I figure if they can centre to drive in the first place, it stands to reason they could apply other magic to it. But that's definately a house rule!

Its all down to what type of adept you play and how you build it. They don't really compare to other types, just like you can't compare riggers and deckers. The closest thing to compare them to is a sammie but to be honest in certain areas they cannot compare to each other (tac puters and distance strike/killing hands combos, for example) .

If you want to know what its like to play an adept, play one. they're always fun. But then, so is everything else as far as I'm concened!

[Lilt]

[Kagetenshi]

[Shockwave_IIc]

Yup it's right there. Read it a dozen times and never seen that bit before, how the hell did i manage that???

Sorry Kagetenshi had to check my book just to make sure.

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Lantzer]

Spotlite is right on.

When I've built an adept I didn't bother with a lot of the combat powers (well, a little bit of init boost). The not-directly-used-to-kill-people powers were very cost-effective, and made my adept move like he was on wires. (It's amazing what an adept can do on rollerblades).

[mfb]

thing about adepts vs sammies is, adepts have fewer resources when it comes to improvement. adepts can spend only karma--nuyen can buy a little bit better gear, but there's a point at which you've acquired pretty much everything you need. sams, on the other hand, get it improve themselves both through nuyen and karma. sure, there's a point at which a sam can't improve his cyber any more--but it's a long, long way off.

the way adepts get around that is, they specialize. they pick two or three things, and they become insanely, unbelievably good at them--they pretty much have to, if they want to 'keep up' with the sams. sams will be good at a wide array of things, because they've got the resources to improve everything they do. an adept will need to figure out how to apply his specialty to every situation.

[Lilt]

[Zazen]

Remember, adepts can take 'ware. In my experience the most frightening adepts are those who took 2 or 3 points worth of exceptionally good 'ware and geased their abilities to compensate (and in games which incorporate the new M&M errata, those few points can go a long way). They only have to geas the powers they lost, which is quite efficient. Centering for adepts can be extremely powerful, too.

I think they're better. This is a somewhat uninformed opinion, though, since I have little experience actually making and playing my own characters. It just seems like I can do more with them.

[mfb]

er, you've got your geas rules mixed up. when dealing with lost magic, adepts have to geasa pretty much the same way mages do. and centering for adepts is fun, but it's not as big a boost as you'd think. if you're going for extra successes, you still have to get a success on the base test (it's a complimentary roll). lowering the TN isn't easy, either, until you get pretty high up in grade. my adept's just over 200 karma, and he's got 6 centering and a force 6 centering focus. he still only manages to lower his TN by a point or two, and that's still only once per action. the one place centering really helps is in stealth, mainly because SR's stealth rules are so mind-numbingly retarded.

sams can continue upgrading for quite some time, through use of essence holes and higher-grade cyberware. it's expensive, sure, but what else are they going to spend their money on?

foci are okay--but they're hard to mask.

[Kagetenshi]

No, the general absence of powers that require tests mean that an Adept is pretty much scot-free on most of their powers if they break a geas for a different power.

~J

[mfb]

i was referring more to the fact that you can't just geas a single power, if you're geasing against magic loss. if i take some cyber, i can't just geas my Low-Light Vision--i have to geas an entire point of magic; if i break my geas, i can no longer use any power i bought with that magic (power) point.

[Kagetenshi]

Yes, that's very true, but it essentially amounts to geasing the power or powers that make up that point (unless you've got a few expensive powers rather than myriad little ones).

~J

[mfb]

yeah. it depends on what you end up geasing.

[Zazen]

I should've said that it can be efficient. I guess some dull-witted initiate could end up geasing a quarter-point of their Quick Strike, half a point of their Deadly Killing Hands, and a quarter-point of their Astral Perception. Usually it's done intelligently and ends up being pretty efficient, though. :)

[Crimzero]

Hmmm, my newbie streak is showing.

Where can I find more information on adepts (Only books I have with powers in it are the SR3 core and Grimore 2nd ed.)

Can Adepts do initiations? Grimore says only Shamans and mages can.