Real Live Cyberhand Dexterity, with video! Options

[code_talker]

--> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/22/video-r...exterity-speed/

Okay, right now, it's not an implant, but a 'regular' robotic hand, but that's just a matter of time...

[Straight Razor]

wow...

[Blade]

So that's what an AGI 9 cyberhand does...

[Straight Razor]

with tactile enhancement and wired reflexes

[remmus]

--> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/22/video-r...exterity-speed/

Okay, right now, it's not an implant, but a 'regular' robotic hand, but that's just a matter of time...

if nothing else it´s a good inspiration


and of course being a PnP nerd one has to ask, what stats would this arm have in SR if we think of it of being a cyber arm?

[ShaunClinton]

I was at watching earlier versions of these at the Tokyo science museum yesterday which got me thinking about cyberlimbs and hard caps on attributes.

If you have a fairly typical ork and an exceptionally strong and tough human, with no difference in their physical attributes, they still have radically different limits for augmentation, whereas their actual bodies (as defined by physical stats) are very similar.

Surely the approach that makes sense is for limits on augmentation to be based on your current attributes rather than on some sort of racial guideline? Can a body 1 human and a body 6 human really accept the same level of augmentation? Does it make any sense that you can attach a cyberlimb with 9s to those frames and expect it to perform?

Cyberlimbs should also be fairly distinct from other augmentations, as you can probably fit a limb which is far more powerful than the metahuman host can handle.

Thoughts?

[Maelstrome]

in sr3 i believe the limit on cyberlimb stats were body plus 4. so that kind of concept was present.

[McAllister]

I think the developers wanted to make cyberlimbs more balanced than realistic. On the other cyberhand, maybe SR5 will have OMGWTFBBQ cyberlimbs that everyone will want.

[ShaunClinton]

I think balance is over-rated! Maybe that's a whole new thread though.

Currently no matter how much training and dedication a (meta)human puts into a task he can never be as skilled as a force 8 spirit, or as a dragon on magical matters. A human who is the absolute best of the best in terms of shooting is just as good as an elf with SWAT training?

Surely skills should not be hard capped, certainly there should be a law of diminishing returns (karma cost equals new rating squared?) but a hard cap, and especially one so low, rankles!

I guess I've diverged into talking about skills when the original point was about attribute caps and the like. However natural attributes are a more sensible area for a cap (although again, some sort of diminishing returns at the high end would enable truly exceptional beings without making it common) whilst augmented attributes less so. Why can't a human be fitted with an ork cyberlimb? RAW says it just can't be done at a certain level, but what's to stop the cybersurgeon picking up the ork limb and attaching it? What happens if you make him do it at gunpoint?

[McAllister]

The original point was "oooh, shiny tech." Your grievances are as valid as anyone's, and welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Natural attribute caps have a perfect diminishing return system, I'm quite satisfied with it. Ratingx5 karma to increase them (or 15 extra BP to hard-max them in chargen), then, if you want to take it even further, you need to drop more points into Exceptional Attribute or Metagenetic Improvement, or Essence and cash and time into Genetic Optimization, THEN pay the sky-high ratingx5 for that last point.

I agree that the hardcap on skills is annoying. It's probably realistic, though. Then again, people frequently complain that attributes are too important; I suspect the system might work better if the hardcap on skills was 10. Put the Einstein-Michael Jordan-Damien Knight level of godlike mastery at skill 11 (for those Aptitude folks) and the hobbyist/little leaguer/high school graduate level of passing interest at skill 1, but put more degrees of space in between. That way, a skill 10 human would benefit more from his uberWTFmastery than the agility 7 elf with his impressively generalized deftness.

And what happens when you bolt an ork arm onto a human? I dunno! Maybe use the redlining rules to represent the stress imposed by the big/heavy/powerful limb, which means if it's too much higher (i.e. a cyberarm customized to BOD 9 on a human would cause 6S damage every turn) the person is going to pass out soon, unless it's possible to "dial down" the cyberlimb to acceptable levels.

[ShaunClinton]

I'd pretty much agree with what you've outlined above. Attributes aren't too much of a problem as there are three distinct ways of increasing your racial maximum, and it costs a lot!

I think putting skills on a slightly larger scale would be a big boon, although if we changed the karma cost to new rating squared you wouldn't have many folks at skill 10 as it would cost 100 karma!

I've always thought that having Einstein as an example of a very high skill level was a bit odd. Maybe by the end of his career but I think the earlier stuff that he is better known for would be better represented by a good skill level and an exceptional linked attribute! However, I accept that the list was compiled in a spirit of fun and not too much thought was put into it!

The redlining rules give some indication perhaps of what could happen, but feel a little extreme for a modestly different limb... having it do 6S damage per turn to a human owner kind of implies that the ork body can handle that level of stress without problems, which isn't satisfactory.

Would it be massively damaging to allow unfettered augmentation of attributes? Perhaps subject to ever increasing costs as you push far beyond normal human boundaries?

[hobgoblin]

one thing to keep in mind is that when we see world class atheletes do their thing, they have trained years and years on one specific event.

to me thats specialization squared, where one not only specialize in a specific subset, but specific condition to said subset.

[ShaunClinton]

I dunno, for most specialisation probably covers it... Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps both comptete in various different Running and Swimming sports. Whilst others might have Throwing (Discus) and stuff like that.

[Rayzorblades]

I love that video. Saw it on Keelynet a couple weeks ago.