SR4? SR4a?, Any differences? Options

[jgalak]

As I mentioned before, I'm getting back into SR after a long absence. Picked up the Anniversary additions (which I presume is what SR4a refers to) at GenCon, planning on using this ruleset. One of the players-to-be has a copy of a SR 4th Edition book, from Catalyst, but a different edition. Rules seem the same, but the flavor text (vignets) and art is different. I presume this is the plain SR4 book?

Are there any differences between the two other than the flavor text and artwork? Are the rules and the setting info the same?

[DWC]

The version you picked up the latest printing, incorporating all the erratta, but featuring new art and a new layout to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the game. If he grabs the latest erratta, he'll have all the same rules that you do.

[BishopMcQ]

SR4A has all the errata added. There is a change document...which I wil llink when i find it.

Otherwise SR4A is the pretty version.

Edit: Damn you DWC and your faster typing skills!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Link to the SR4A Changes Document

[jgalak]

Thanks.

[Eugene]

Also there's more fiction, all new AFAICT. Most of it's pretty good. I've read about half of the pieces so far, and the only one I haven't liked was the one at the beginning of the book.

[Grinder]

The fiction by Peter Taylor has been released in another book before iirc, even though I can't remember where.

[Tiger Eyes]

The fiction by Peter Taylor has been released in another book before iirc, even though I can't remember where.

I don't believe that's the case.

[DarkKindness]

Also worth mentioning - the Karma cost for increasing attributes (as has been pointed out to me in another thread) rose from new score x3 to new score x5.

I'd say that SR4A is absolutely worth getting - I love every piece of the new art (and the choices that they made when keeping/discarding the old), and I actually enjoyed every piece of the new fiction in the book. The rules update is nice, but not necessary. All that aside, though, the production values alone are enough to merit the purchase - this is what all RPG books should be.

[kanislatrans]

For me, I love the new layout. it makes things real easy to find...Master index is a GM's wet dream...all the info and which book to find it in.

Art and fiction are great. but I'm partial to the fluffy stuff anyway.

[Krypter]

Funny how a new design job can make the ol' dancer look twenty again, eh?

[RunnerPaul]

One annoying thing was the change in how the rules for grenades work. Under the original SR4, you were allowed to stage the damage of a grenade up against a single target once you'd reduced the scatter down to zero (with blast radius effects still being determined by the base damage of the grenade). Of course, if you were throwing a grenade at a location, and not any particular opponent, you didn't get any damage boost, even for really successful throws. However, someone at Catalyst got it in their heads that the option of throwing at a location made grenades "too easy" because locations can't dodge. Never mind the fact that to get that "easier" throw you sacrifice the ability to do more than base damage to a target.

So when SR4A came out, the rewrote the rules to insist that if there's a victim that could get caught in the blast, you have to roll it as an opposed test, took out any options for staging up damage, and increased the amount grenades scatter in the first place. It's an overkill solution to the non-existent problem of grenades being "too easy". Yes, under the original rules they were effective room cleaners, but guess what? They are in real life too. And the thing is, excessive use of grenades by the players can be solved a lot more simply than overhauling rules to the point of taking the fun out. All it takes is the GM applying a little verisimilitude to the game world, and having military-level response to shadowrunners who use military-level hardware like grenades.

Aside from that, I love what I've seen of SR4A.

[Shinobi Killfist]

One annoying thing was the change in how the rules for grenades work. Under the original SR4, you were allowed to stage the damage of a grenade up against a single target once you'd reduced the scatter down to zero (with blast radius effects still being determined by the base damage of the grenade). Of course, if you were throwing a grenade at a location, and not any particular opponent, you didn't get any damage boost, even for really successful throws. However, someone at Catalyst got it in their heads that the option of throwing at a location made grenades "too easy" because locations can't dodge. Never mind the fact that to get that "easier" throw you sacrifice the ability to do more than base damage to a target.

So when SR4A came out, the rewrote the rules to insist that if there's a victim that could get caught in the blast, you have to roll it as an opposed test, took out any options for staging up damage, and increased the amount grenades scatter in the first place. It's an overkill solution to the non-existent problem of grenades being "too easy". Yes, under the original rules they were effective room cleaners, but guess what? They are in real life too. And the thing is, excessive use of grenades by the players can be solved a lot more simply than overhauling rules to the point of taking the fun out. All it takes is the GM applying a little verisimilitude to the game world, and having military-level response to shadowrunners who use military-level hardware like grenades.

Aside from that, I love what I've seen of SR4A.

Yeah, we encountered this for grenades and missiles in our sunday game. My character is a heavy weapons specialist and I roll 16 dice using heavy weapons, with the current scatter rules I'm more of a machine gun specialist since I'll miss fairly badly in most cases with grenades or missiles/rockets. Heck with a unguided rocket I'd be lucky to hit the planet.

I don't mind the non-increasing damage 10P is a solid effect and it is an AoE, 10P-5 because of scatter is ta lame. Its like they decided only mages can have AoE effects in the game you pansy mundane types suck it up and kill one person at a time. Did they have two different design teams each coming up with a grenade nerf and they forgot they were going to use the best one not both?

[Grinder]

I don't believe that's the case.

But I'm so damn sure I've read it before. Maybe I'm just hallucinating or have some serious deja-vu. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Mäx]

One annoying thing was the change in how the rules for grenades work. Under the original SR4, you were allowed to stage the damage of a grenade up against a single target once you'd reduced the scatter down to zero (with blast radius effects still being determined by the base damage of the grenade). Of course, if you were throwing a grenade at a location, and not any particular opponent, you didn't get any damage boost, even for really successful throws. However, someone at Catalyst got it in their heads that the option of throwing at a location made grenades "too easy" because locations can't dodge. Never mind the fact that to get that "easier" throw you sacrifice the ability to do more than base damage to a target.

So when SR4A came out, the rewrote the rules to insist that if there's a victim that could get caught in the blast, you have to roll it as an opposed test, took out any options for staging up damage, and increased the amount grenades scatter in the first place. It's an overkill solution to the non-existent problem of grenades being "too easy". Yes, under the original rules they were effective room cleaners, but guess what? They are in real life too. And the thing is, excessive use of grenades by the players can be solved a lot more simply than overhauling rules to the point of taking the fun out. All it takes is the GM applying a little verisimilitude to the game world, and having military-level response to shadowrunners who use military-level hardware like grenades.

Aside from that, I love what I've seen of SR4A.

Yeah it's really funny that you con throw yourself in the head with a grenade, even when you get a critical success.

[DarkKindness]

Uh... hey Max... that didn't make a whole lot of sense. Perhaps a rephrase is in order?

[Mäx]

Uh... hey Max... that didn't make a whole lot of sense. Perhaps a rephrase is in order?

A critical succes is when you get 4 or more net hits, those four hits reduce catter for standart grenades 4m(max catter 6m) and for aerodynamic grenades 8m(max catter 12m).
So when used for room clearing if the point in the room you throwing is less then 2m/4m away for standart/aerodynamic grenade, the grenade can end up between you own legs thanks to catter. Even though you got a critical success that usually means you did really well.

[Cain]

Shadowrun's grenade rules have always been borked. I don't think there's any edition where you couldn't potentially end up on top of your own grenade.

The rules changes go beyond simple errata. It's not quite a Shadowrun 4.5, but it's close. Characters aren't backward-compatible, and the changes make for some profound differences in the game. For example, changing Extended tests forces you to entirely rethink your character, if you want to meet certain Thresholds.

[Hiroru]

I believe I've seen a link to 'happy trails' before 4a. I think Ancient History posted it up in a pile of stuff recovered from a dying hard drive?

[Jame J]

Just out of curiosity, is there any difference between the FanPro SR4 and the Catalyst Labs SR4, at least in terms of the core book?

[Cain]

Just out of curiosity, is there any difference between the FanPro SR4 and the Catalyst Labs SR4, at least in terms of the core book?

In the 4.0 book? Errata's about it, I think.

[Jame J]

In the 4.0 book? Errata's about it, I think.

Okay, thank you. (Yeah, the 4.0 book; you're right.)

Where do I find the errata?

[RunnerPaul]

Where do I find the errata?

http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/index.shtml#errata

[Malachi]

Here's the document that summarizes the changes between SR4 and SR4A.

[DarkKindness]

Though that document was published before SR4A came out, and a number of the things in it are outdated/never made it into SR4A. Oh, that and it doesn't detail all of the changes that they made. Actually, calling it a changes document is kind of misleading... it's really more of a teaser document.

[Cardul]

And, of course, last I checked, if you want to use the much better SR4A character sheet, you have to buy the PDF, as they STILL have not put the SR4A sheet up on the website..