A very important question, Great Dragon vs. Battlemechs Options

[hyzmarca]

One question has been bugging me all day.

Lets say that in the Battletech universe during the Clan invasion a Smoke Jaguar jumpship misjumps. Finding themselves in what appears to the the Solar System with no opposition they attempt to take the planet that they believe to be Terra.

Long story short, a Galaxy lands near Lofwyr's tropical vacation home where he is entertaining a ladyfriend. This interruption of his draconic leisure rituals greatly pisses him off.

How wins and how badly is the other side trounced?

[The Canterbury T...]

Dunno, but Best Ever - An Eight World Adventure might tell you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Maelstrome]

with lofwyr anything is possible. its stated that dragons dont really use formulae as we know them for spells. so he could probably invent a demolish mech spell on the fly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[rathmun]

When someone can drop a force 24 spell without overcasting, the target is about to have a bad day.

[Marwynn]

A Galaxy of Smoke Jaguars?

Man, that shouldn't take much. A Great Dragon could probably swat the DropShips out of the sky before they become a problem.

Can he cast Mob Control?

[Jaid]

my money is on lofwyr. in the first 0.666666 seconds, he will have summoned a high force spirit of man. since the mechs have no magical defense whatsoever, the influence power will win the day. all lofwyr has to do is not be seen while the spirit walks all over the pilots, and influences them all to surrender to lofwyr. i suppose lofwyr would probably also need to jam communications so they can't discuss the fact that it's a bad idea to surrender... don't want them to build up enough cumulative successes after all.

[McAllister]

I dunno, guys. I think he's going to get shot with a lot of large missiles from mechs/oter platforms that he doesn't have LOS to, either because they're so far away or they're behind something. Indirect fire is a bitch.

[Bull]

I dunno, guys. I think he's going to get shot with a lot of large missiles from mechs/oter platforms that he doesn't have LOS to, either because they're so far away or they're behind something. Indirect fire is a bitch.

Yeah, but this Lofwyr we're talking about. That's a threat anyways.

When dealing with a dragon, keep their magic, their intelligence, and their experience in mind.

1) Is that really the dragon you're shooting at? Between spells to see in the distance and illusions, I wouldn't expect him to just go blundering out of his house without scouting safely first.

2) And even without the magic, he's got the resources of Saeder-Krupp at his beck and call. He knew about the dropship coming before it got anywhere near Earth.

3) Spirits. Lots of spirits.

4) And even assuming he's cocky enough to just go wandering out blithely, he's got so many countermeasures in place, anchored spells at stupid high forces. Detect Bullet, Detect Missile, and Detect Laser spells, plus Barrier ratings of incredible levels.

If you teleported a bunch of mechs and Lofwyr in the middle of an open arena, and Lofwyr had nothing prepped in advance? I'd go Mechs, though they'd take losses.

Likewise, if the Mechs knew what they were up against, had the chance to prep well in advance, and Lofwyr didn't know they were coming? Sure, I'll give it to the mechs.

But in the above sitch? Lowfyr, all the way.

[McAllister]

He is probably more intelligent than all of clan Smoke Jaguar put together. They're nice tacticians, for metahumans, but it's like they're playing checkers and he's playing chess.

I agree that, teleported into an open area with no warning (or better yet, with Smoke Jaguar having warning) Lofwyr would go down. What I want is to see the fight scene!

[TheOOB]

A battlemech would be a good match for a dragon. A great dragon would require a 100-ton lance with master pilots to be a match.

[Johnny Hammersti...]

orbital bombardment anyone?

[nezumi]

Both parties surprised, but on Lofwyr's turf. Mech has little magical protection (except a sky-high OR). Lofwyr does have some experience with super-nice tech, but his island will be made to resist both tanks and jets and just about everything else. I don't know how fast the mech could deploy, but regardless, I'd probably put my money on the home team.

[Stahlseele]

It's a Tie/Draw.
Lofwyr Destroys Mech or whatever, and Mech or whatever stackpoles killing Lofwyr.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

This is really like comparing apples to oranges. Thematically speaking, battlemechs are awesome and thus should be a match for Lofwyr, who while powerful is not entirely awesome.

Mechanically speaking, battletech was designed to have big lumbering war machines brawling it out at close range and just isn't compatible with the more realistic vehicle speeds and weapon ranges used in shadowrun. Mechanically speaking, battlemechs wouldn't be a match for regular shadowrun military vehicles. One thing battletech did make rather straight forward was its mechanics for spaceflight though, so they really could destroy the entire planet from space if they wanted, but that has nothing to do with the thematic awesomeness of battlemechs.

[JM Hardy]

Lofwyr would turn the 'Mech to goo. He would turn the freakin' 'Mech to goo!

Sorry. Had to be said.

Jason H.

[Draco18s]

Lofwyr would turn the 'Mech to goo. He would turn the freakin' 'Mech to goo!

Know what I find funny about that spell? It's functionally identical to turning the Mech into stone. That's right, check out the SR4 rules, both spells grant the subject the same barrier rating!

[Critias]

In a stand up brawl, I'd put money on the Mechs. If anywhere NEAR that number of front-line machines, piloted by aggressive Smoke Jaguar pilots, got magically teleported into an arena alongside a startled Lofwyr, you'd see a heck of a brawl, but a Jaguar win and a few lines in their Remembrance.

Given the accident misjump/arrival, though, I'd have to vote Lofwyr. Not because it's who I'd like to win, but because the Battletech tech level is built wholly around the rule of cool, and less-so around the rules of actual efficiency (and because it's established canon, for better or worse, what someone like Ghostwalker can do).

Also, as was pointed out, for all that it's sci-fi versus cyberpunk, in many ways Shadowrun has better technology than Battletech...so given Saeder-Krupp's resources to throw into the mix, I think any OmniMechs on the ground would get pasted (then salvaged for parts, so that SK could be spitting out ten-meter battle armor tanks by the end of the fiscal year).

I imagine right afterwards, though, the ristar Trueblood in charge of the Smoke Jaguar force would just growl out, "Fine. We will handle them like we did Edo, on Turtle Bay." Then comes the lances of fire from the sky that make Thor shots look like someone playing marbles.

[Bugfoxmaster]

I vote Lofwyr - mind manipulations on the dropship pilots, turn the mechs to goo, spot them coming with satellites, and use Sadeer-Krupp's weaponery to stall them until the mages take them apart. Surprise has less effect, at least in the given scenario, on the dragon, becuse he can spot them coming, at least to a point. I still don't really get where this is coming from, though...

[Paul]

This is like asking who wins against Wolverine in comic books. The Lawyers do when they sue your ass for messing with their cash cow!

[Kerenshara]

First: I own a copy of BattleDroids somewhere, so take it as good coin that I go way WAY back, OK?

Second: My money is safely on Lowfyr. Here's why:

BATTLETECH ARMOR IS ABLATIVE. Mystic Armor and Spells are not. Shadowrun weapons have armor penetration abilities. BattleTech weapons don't. Lightning Bolt = PPC.

It's as simple as that. Even assuming Lofwyr said to his defenses "I've got this...", he'd still tea them up like it was going out of style. He'd just stay at 850 meters, beyond the maximum range of ELRMs and cast F24 Lightning Bolts at them until crispy. Game over.

*Evil Grin*

This was essentially a topic of a huge debate after no sleep and too much Holy Caffiene at a convention. Much fun was had by all, but that was the final conclusion.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Because magic doesn't work in space, Lofwyr is toast if the dropships decide to use bombardment.

My aerotech book is in a box hidden away somewhere, so I can't get specific details, but dropships in battletech have been noted for burning at 1g for 9 days straight. A standard transit time from jump point to planet.

1: At full burn, they could do a flyby of the planet at 7,620,479 m/s (at least)
2: They have (at least) 100 tons of cargo capacity, which is about 90,718 kgs

M= Mass of projectile (kg)
V= Velocity of projectile relative to target (m/s)
K= Kinetic energy (Joules)

K=0.5 x M x V^2

Roughly 2.63 x 10^18 Joules (which is over 600 megatons of TNT)

Galaxy = 120 to 375 Battlemechs

So that is somewhere between 72000 and 225000 megatons of TNT

I'm just sayin' s'all.

It is really a pity that mass drivers are not a more readily accepted form of destroying horrendous magical monstrosities. I tried to argue my case to a GM once that an asteroid knocked out of it's orbit would be a perfectly reasonable way to deal with an ultra powerful evil spirit that was poised to take over the world.

Does anyone have stats on what kind of Delta V budgets space ships in the shadowrun world have? I know the moon is colonized by 2072.

[Kerenshara]

Only one problem: that's just a piece of fast moving rock (or whatever) - He can shield an area (remember in SR1&2, Barriers could be domes).

But I THINK the OP mentioned coming down to land.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Only one problem: that's just a piece of fast moving rock

I'm sure the dinosaurs appreciated the distinction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Seriously though, its a fast moving rock that (on impact) releases more energy than 6 Krakatoa eruptions, and they've got somewhere between 120 and 375 of these things. What force is that shield rated at?

Yeah, once they land they're pretty much toast.

[Johnny Hammersti...]

A clan force probably wouldn't attack an undefended world without scouting/scanning it first and finding said dragon.

Magic has a hard time affecting dropships in orbit no?

[Ed_209a]

The entire Clan force would only arrive on Lofwyr's island if he is the objective.

In that case, I believe they could probably take him out through sheer mass of numbers.

If the Clan forces only wanted to conquer Earth, I think they would stay in orbit, to negotiate a trial. If nuking a city can't close a deal, then they have a major problem. They would be trying to take and hold a planet with fewer forces than the US has in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Harry Turtledove wrote a series about a similar subject, the Worldwar series. In that setting, a force about the size and tech of the Gulf War 1 coalition forces arrive to invade earth in 1941.

Ultimately, attrition became the biggest enemy, and I think the Clans will find the same thing happens to them.

Then there is magic... Clan forces will be totally unprepared for magic. It would be like fighting a war today if your side had never even heard of the airplane. Clan omnimechs will fall right and left from the spirits manifesting inside them. Even worse would be the higher force spirits that are smart enough to go straight for the pilots without damaging the mech much

The Clan fleet's only real option is ultimatum. "Play a game with us with your planet as the prize, or we bombard your planet from orbit." That is a terrible plan for a force interested in conquest, because you might end up spending trillions to buy a cinder.