BP as opposed to Karma Options

[Uthred]

I was wondering has anyone tried replacing the Karma system with BP handouts instead? Personally I dislike having two different kinds of points for chargen and xp and thought this might take care of the issue. If you have done so how did it work out? Any obvious pitfalls?

[McAllister]

Only obvious pitfalls are the costs are quite different for a bunch of things, and you can't initiate/submerge with BP. If you just cut all initiation/submerging costs in half (I'd round up) and accept that it'll encourage specialization (BOD 9 for a troll; 45 karma, or 10 BP?) then give it a whirl.

[DuctShuiTengu]

I was wondering has anyone tried replacing the Karma system with BP handouts instead? Personally I dislike having two different kinds of points for chargen and xp and thought this might take care of the issue. If you have done so how did it work out? Any obvious pitfalls?

Haven't done this, but off the top of my head:
With no difference in the cost to attune foci using BP, there's even less reason for mages to ever get spellcasting, summoning, binding, or banishing foci.
There's no BP costs for initiation or submersion (may also be true with some other things, but those are the two that spring to mind).
BP gives a flat cost for raising stats, which may lead to problems with stats that can get extremely high (strength and body for trolls, magic or resonance, etc) becoming that much more attractive to raise to extreme levels (an area where the system tends to be a bit shakey).

[Kerenshara]

Other option is just go KarmaGen and be done with it. The upshot is you virtually eliminate people trying to buy the cheesey cheap BP stuff at start. It also encourages more rounded characters than BP in what I've seen.

[Fezig]

If you are looking for only using one system for chargen as well as during the campaign, why not just use the karma gen rules from runners companion? Seems like converting to all BP would sort of be reinventing the wheel.

[Glyph]

Frank's house rules use build points for both character creation and advancement. However, they are not merely a BP advancement system, but an overall revamping of the rules. It could give you some ideas, though.

The problem with using Karmagen is that it is in limbo after SR4A's backdoor rules changes.

[Fezig]

I find myself doing a quick and dirty fix by house ruling that you add your meta cost (which I do as double bp cost and you'll see why), but calculate the modification to your base statistics after purchasing them while doing chargen. It seems to pop out balanced enough characters for my taste, so it works with me. I would find a get-around for the karma chargen issues easier than inventing a way to keep the bp system going throughout, but thats just me. I suppose unless you go BP for gen and run karma after, no matter what you have to play around with things....but I suppose thats why that is the base system...

[Kerenshara]

I find myself doing a quick and dirty fix by house ruling that you add your meta cost (which I do as double bp cost and you'll see why), but calculate the modification to your base statistics after purchasing them while doing chargen. It seems to pop out balanced enough characters for my taste, so it works with me. I would find a get-around for the karma chargen issues easier than inventing a way to keep the bp system going throughout, but thats just me. I suppose unless you go BP for gen and run karma after, no matter what you have to play around with things....but I suppose thats why that is the base system...

Yikes. You DO realize that has a tendancy to spit out MUCH higer statted metahumans than the base system, right? Math-wise?

[Kerenshara]

Frank's house rules use build points for both character creation and advancement. However, they are not merely a BP advancement system, but an overall revamping of the rules. It could give you some ideas, though.

The problem with using Karmagen is that it is in limbo after SR4A's backdoor rules changes.

What's the problem? Use a little common sense and upgrade 750 Karma to 1000 and you come out about the same, just limit stats to not more than 625+BP purchase price. [=5/3*375]+[375] which is multiply the "Max Half" points by 5/3 (ratio of old costs to new on stats). Seems straight foward enough to me.

[Glyph]

That's the problem - you have to make up your own house rule. The other problem is that the tentative fix (at least according to Ancient History) is going to be leaving it at the 750, since it was originally "intended" to be 600 Karma. And the problem with 750 is that in Karmagen, the special Attributes are included in the 375 Karma limit on Attributes, which completely bones any awakened character or technomancer.

If they did keep it the way it is, and simply adjust it for the revised cost of Attributes, I would be happy. But I have a sinking feeling that they will take the same tack they did with SR4A, and "fix" it to make it less powerful and to address the numerous complaints about "free" metatypes. And I am afraid that the end result will be rather wretched.

[AllTheNothing]

Yikes. You DO realize that has a tendancy to spit out MUCH higer statted metahumans than the base system, right? Math-wise?

I agreed, but left as it is the difference in the advancement betwen a human and a troll is that they increase their attributes with the same ease/effort, but the troll can go on after six for strenght and body, while he/she has to stop at five for agility, logicand intuition, and stop at four for his/hers charisma; which in my opinion stinks as trolls are naturaly stronger/thoughter than humans and their progression in the strenght and body attributes should be easier for them than it is for mere baselines, and as flip side of the coin raising their charisma should be harder to raise for trolls as they are challanged in that area.

I think that a possible solution is to rule that metatypes (and qualities, surge, genetech, etc.) increase the minum values of a certain attribute half (round down) the value they increase the maximum value that the attribute can reach, and the cost of the increase is based on the level of increase compared to the minim value (yes I know my wording is awfull, but I'm not motherlenguage so try to indulge with my poor english). So a troll strenght and body attributes would have a range of 3/10 instead of 5/10, and increasin those attribute from 3 to 4 would have the same cost that a human would have to pay for increasing them from 1 to 2 (10 karma), if said troll happens to have an exceptional attribute quality and a genetic improvement in one of those attributes the range would be 4/12 (as the total bonus to the maximum value becomes +6) and increasing it from 4 to 5 would cost 10 karma; as a flip side of the coin if the modifier is negative its absolute value is added to the new rating of the attribute for determining the cost of the incease, a troll that increases his/hers charisma from 1 to 2 has to pay the same cost (20 karma) of a human increasing it from 3 to 4 (or an elf going from 4 to 5).

I think that this could be a way to balance the thing (paying (2 x BP cost) karma for the metatype), what you people think?

[AllTheNothing]

That's the problem - you have to make up your own house rule. The other problem is that the tentative fix (at least according to Ancient History) is going to be leaving it at the 750, since it was originally "intended" to be 600 Karma. And the problem with 750 is that in Karmagen, the special Attributes are included in the 375 Karma limit on Attributes, which completely bones any awakened character or technomancer.

If they did keep it the way it is, and simply adjust it for the revised cost of Attributes, I would be happy. But I have a sinking feeling that they will take the same tack they did with SR4A, and "fix" it to make it less powerful and to address the numerous complaints about "free" metatypes. And I am afraid that the end result will be rather wretched.

I think that the limit was for physical and mental attributes and not for special attributes, magic/resonance shouldn't count toward said limit.

[DarkKindness]

I think that the limit was for physical and mental attributes and not for special attributes, magic/resonance shouldn't count toward said limit.

They shouldn't, but in the Karma gen rules as written, ALL attributes count toward the half Karma you can spend on attributes, including Edge, Magic, and Resonance.

Step 3: Purchase Attributes
Next, purchase the character’s attributes (including special attributes)
using the costs given in the Karma Character Generation
Table. Characters begin with the minimum attribute ratings defined
by their race/metatype. The maximum Karma a character
can spend on their attributes at character generation is half their
starting Karma (rounding up) plus twice the listed BP cost for their
metatype or alternate racial concept.

[Mäx]

If they did keep it the way it is, and simply adjust it for the revised cost of Attributes, I would be happy. But I have a sinking feeling that they will take the same tack they did with SR4A, and "fix" it to make it less powerful and to address the numerous complaints about "free" metatypes. And I am afraid that the end result will be rather wretched.

From what i have read from AH the stealth nerf fix is exactly they way their gonna go with karmagen, which is just big load of BS.

[Wombat]

You could just use Karma-Gen out of Runner's Companion.

[toolbox]

You could just use Karma-Gen out of Runner's Companion.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you probably didn't read the whole thread before posting this.

[Kerenshara]

That's the problem - you have to make up your own house rule. The other problem is that the tentative fix (at least according to Ancient History) is going to be leaving it at the 750, since it was originally "intended" to be 600 Karma. And the problem with 750 is that in Karmagen, the special Attributes are included in the 375 Karma limit on Attributes, which completely bones any awakened character or technomancer.

If they did keep it the way it is, and simply adjust it for the revised cost of Attributes, I would be happy. But I have a sinking feeling that they will take the same tack they did with SR4A, and "fix" it to make it less powerful and to address the numerous complaints about "free" metatypes. And I am afraid that the end result will be rather wretched.

I don't recall it saying an intended 600 BP... but I need to go double check. And I completely missed special attributes being under the cap. You're right, that DOES kill an Awakened character. Or not, I think Kerenshara's still under, but I'm not sure by how much. The 375 was derived from 1/2 of 750... where did I get 750?

And the "free" metatypes is a garbage argument IMHO, because of how I view the stats inherently (and taking them as a character). I buy at "average" (Base +2) for the race unless I have a intended and designed reason to do otherwise, up OR down. Kerenshara's INTuition is at racial max, because her background and upbringing emphasized quick thinking and mental flexibilty over everything else. She's "Above Average" in WILlpower (she's stubborn), LOGic (She's a bright girl, but not a rocket scientist). She's BELOW average in EDGe, because she's had some awful luck and barely walked away too many times prior to game start. I build every character that way (if at all possible). So by the time you buy from 5 to 7 and 4 to 6 for average stats in BODy and STRengt for a troll, you've spent a big chunk of change, which would have been flat numbers in BP. Average elf is buying up CHArisma and AGIlity higher than base, and so on. Lots and lots of people lose their natural eyes, so that's not as big a draw, value-wise. Then factor in the predjudice against BEING metahuman, and I don't think it's a problem at all.

Frankly, (and we're back to my argument about skills) if you do KarmaGen the way we have at our table (and it sounds like there were some technical "oops!"es in how we decided to do it, beyond the house-rule changes we made intentionally) we wound up with nobody with oover-the-top skills/stats and everybody had a broad cross-section of skills at low to moderate levels reflecting a more realistic outlook. From my perspective, the BP standard character plates in the BBB are overly two-dimensional skill-wise. The GM has been throwing stock-modules at us in terms of the opposition, and we're overcoming through excellent tactics and out-of-the-box thinking (and some admittedly incredble dice rolls), being fully challenged at every step. The Mages/TM are taking Drain/Fading to keep up, the Sammies aren't (generally) one-shotting baddies (I DID mention wicked dice rolls, didn't I?) and we aren't walking all over the opposition. But that's us. If somebody wants details of what we DID do, drop me a PM - I'm glad to offer our insights and experiences (and house rules, including any unintended "oops"es) to help you out.

[Glyph]

I apologize, I wasn't being too clear to people who haven't been following other threads about Karmagen.

The original Karmagen in Runner's Companion is recommended as a base of 750 Karma, with up to 375 (more for a metahuman) that can be spent on Attributes. Under the old multiplier of (x 3), that was plenty of points.

Currently, in various threads, Ancient History, one of the people who worked on Karmagen, has been saying that it should have been 600 Karma, and that the fix for the higher (x 5) multiplier was going to be to leave it at 750 Karma. The biggest problem with that, is that now technomancers and awakened characters have to squeeze their base Attributes and two special Attributes out of 375 points, which screws them over something fierce. Also, there have been hints that the "problem" of "free" metatypes will be "fixed" in the new version.

Overall, I will be very disappointed if this is how they go. Karmagen might have been technically more powerful than build points. However, if you give players more, often you will find that they are not as driven to min-max. Karmagen didn't encourage more balanced characters because higher stats were more expensive. If that was all it did, people would pay the price for the higher stats, grumble about it, and be even more one-dimensional. It encouraged more balanced characters because you could get what you needed for your specialty, and then flesh out the character some more.

[Udoshi]

For those of us new players who aren't aware of changes before our time(like me) could someone mention exactly what 4a's stealth nerf changes were?

[Kerenshara]

I apologize, I wasn't being too clear to people who haven't been following other threads about Karmagen.

The original Karmagen in Runner's Companion is recommended as a base of 750 Karma, with up to 375 (more for a metahuman) that can be spent on Attributes. Under the old multiplier of (x 3), that was plenty of points.

Currently, in various threads, Ancient History, one of the people who worked on Karmagen, has been saying that it should have been 600 Karma, and that the fix for the higher (x 5) multiplier was going to be to leave it at 750 Karma. The biggest problem with that, is that now technomancers and awakened characters have to squeeze their base Attributes and two special Attributes out of 375 points, which screws them over something fierce. Also, there have been hints that the "problem" of "free" metatypes will be "fixed" in the new version.

Overall, I will be very disappointed if this is how they go. Karmagen might have been technically more powerful than build points. However, if you give players more, often you will find that they are not as driven to min-max. Karmagen didn't encourage more balanced characters because higher stats were more expensive. If that was all it did, people would pay the price for the higher stats, grumble about it, and be even more one-dimensional. It encouraged more balanced characters because you could get what you needed for your specialty, and then flesh out the character some more.

I'll choose to respectfully disagree on the very last point. I think it's because there's a difference (in my own twisty brain, anyhow) between Munchkinism and Min-Maxing. A really GOOD Min-Maxer is going to look at KarmaGen and realize that in terms of utility and survivability, there's far more to be gained from a dozen skills at 2 which are secondary than defaulting on them or taking them at 1 just so they can raise that last point in their primary skill. Even using the "Hit Cap", 4 Skill is more than enough to max things out reasonably, and an extra two dice getting to 6 isn't worth what you can buy at the low end. A Munchkin is going to keep focused on their individual "tricks" and pump them to the last die, and to hell with the consequences for any kind of secondary capability or functionality outside their special region. The troll with the assault cannon is in the room with the rest of the party, and when asked to introduce himself, he says "I'm a troll. I kill shit." or if they're feeling expansive "I'm Thuggy the troll, and I kill shit good wit' my big gunz". KarmaGen (especially how our table handled it) really discourages that by making the "tricks" increasingly expensive to twink to the max at start. With BP, skills are easy to max out, and as long as you avoid racial max, the attributes are a flat cost too. In fact, BP DISCOURAGES lots of low skills by having flat prices - Why take three skills at 1 when you can pump one skill to 4? See where I am going on that? That is why I disagree with your last statement.

[Glyph]

I'll choose to respectfully disagree on the very last point. I think it's because there's a difference (in my own twisty brain, anyhow) between Munchkinism and Min-Maxing. A really GOOD Min-Maxer is going to look at KarmaGen and realize that in terms of utility and survivability, there's far more to be gained from a dozen skills at 2 which are secondary than defaulting on them or taking them at 1 just so they can raise that last point in their primary skill. Even using the "Hit Cap", 4 Skill is more than enough to max things out reasonably, and an extra two dice getting to 6 isn't worth what you can buy at the low end. A Munchkin is going to keep focused on their individual "tricks" and pump them to the last die, and to hell with the consequences for any kind of secondary capability or functionality outside their special region. The troll with the assault cannon is in the room with the rest of the party, and when asked to introduce himself, he says "I'm a troll. I kill shit." or if they're feeling expansive "I'm Thuggy the troll, and I kill shit good wit' my big gunz". KarmaGen (especially how our table handled it) really discourages that by making the "tricks" increasingly expensive to twink to the max at start. With BP, skills are easy to max out, and as long as you avoid racial max, the attributes are a flat cost too. In fact, BP DISCOURAGES lots of low skills by having flat prices - Why take three skills at 1 when you can pump one skill to 4? See where I am going on that? That is why I disagree with your last statement.

I think at that point, you just need to set the starting caps lower, instead of making it impossible to be good at what you do and functional outside of that. And then crying "munchkin!" when someone gets that skill of 6 anyways. Shadowrunners tend to use their abilities offensively, so being good at your main schtick is usually a lot more important than being good in other areas.

I don't think the revised Karmagen rules will make it harder for the min-maxer to cover other areas. But characters will be more boring - they will be good at what they need to be good at, and just good enough at other essential areas. You will see a lot of sammies with influence group: 1, infiltration: 2, pilot ground vehicle/wheeled: 1/+2, and a lot less of people doing things like taking artisan/engraving for their armorer, or getting full-fledged secondary specialties. Everything else being equal, it seems to me that lowering points tends to increase min-maxing, rather than discouraging it.

[Kerenshara]

I think at that point, you just need to set the starting caps lower, instead of making it impossible to be good at what you do and functional outside of that. And then crying "munchkin!" when someone gets that skill of 6 anyways. Shadowrunners tend to use their abilities offensively, so being good at your main schtick is usually a lot more important than being good in other areas.

I don't think the revised Karmagen rules will make it harder for the min-maxer to cover other areas. But characters will be more boring - they will be good at what they need to be good at, and just good enough at other essential areas. You will see a lot of sammies with influence group: 1, infiltration: 2, pilot ground vehicle/wheeled: 1/+2, and a lot less of people doing things like taking artisan/engraving for their armorer, or getting full-fledged secondary specialties. Everything else being equal, it seems to me that lowering points tends to increase min-maxing, rather than discouraging it.

I think we're talking about apples and oranges, chummer. I was saying that COMPARED to BP, KarmaGen as currently implemented (as written in Runner's Companion, but not forcinnng the "special stats" under the cap) encourages roundedness. But if they cut points, I agree with you completely; I just wasn't discussing that aspect of it the problem at the time.

[Omenowl]

I like karma generation better as it allows for a more rational method for making characters. I think to be fair Karma generation should be lowered for starting out shadowrunners. The current 750 is just too high even with changes. It makes shadowrunners more like those of 3rd edition rather than 4th edition. 650 Karma would be more reasonable for starting characters.

As for roundness of characters perhaps a better point spread allocation should be used for Karma gen. Up to 50% for attributes, at least 10% for knowledge skills and the rest as the player sees as appropriate.

[Zormal]

I play with BPs all the way. You need to houserule some stuff like magical advancement and the like, but not as much as you'd think. Karma to BP ratio is roughly 3:2, and you can use that as a guideline.

I like the linear advancement (I know many people like it the other way around) and the simplicity of it. Nobody needs to min-max in chargen, as there is no change in the costs after that.

You can get started with this thread by Frank.

[Mäx]

I play with BPs all the way. You need to houserule some stuff like magical advancement and the like, but not as much as you'd think. Karma to BP ratio is roughly 3:2, and you can use that as a guideline.

Just a little warning, coing this way makes the characters advance a much faster then normal and fastly moves the game to very high power levels.