BP as opposed to Karma Options

[Zormal]

Yes. This is by choice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But it's very good that you pointed that out.

[AllTheNothing]

They shouldn't, but in the Karma gen rules as written, ALL attributes count toward the half Karma you can spend on attributes, including Edge, Magic, and Resonance.

It seems that I have mixed up the normal BP chargen rules with the ones of the karmagen; man that restriction stinks badly for awakened and emerged characters, not only they have more things that they need to burn karma on, they also have to gimp their attributes.

[AllTheNothing]

I think at that point, you just need to set the starting caps lower, instead of making it impossible to be good at what you do and functional outside of that. And then crying "munchkin!" when someone gets that skill of 6 anyways. Shadowrunners tend to use their abilities offensively, so being good at your main schtick is usually a lot more important than being good in other areas.

I don't think the revised Karmagen rules will make it harder for the min-maxer to cover other areas. But characters will be more boring - they will be good at what they need to be good at, and just good enough at other essential areas. You will see a lot of sammies with influence group: 1, infiltration: 2, pilot ground vehicle/wheeled: 1/+2, and a lot less of people doing things like taking artisan/engraving for their armorer, or getting full-fledged secondary specialties. Everything else being equal, it seems to me that lowering points tends to increase min-maxing, rather than discouraging it.

To avert this it would be auspicable a change in the way that skill groups work, as they are now they grant a karma discount only if the skills are takled in block (which isn't the way it goes in real life as trying to get better at several things at once just makes things harder), it could be corrected by granting a discount for increasing a skill if you olready have one skill at that level that is part of the skill group, in this way you still enjoy the benefits without the "I have to increas the whole skillgroup at once or I'll end up paying more" sideffect.

P.S.
Kerenshara, your posts are indeed well thought and well exposed but that font that you use results tiring for my eyes after a while, couldn't you use one a bit easier on eyes?

[cndblank]

It seems that I have mixed up the normal BP chargen rules with the ones of the karmagen; man that restriction stinks badly for awakened and emerged characters, not only they have more things that they need to burn karma on, they also have to gimp their attributes.

From what I've seen that is a badly needed rebalancing.


Mundanes have been getting the short end of the stick in 4th for a while.


Everyone seems to favor taking awakened and emerged characters because not only are they Kool but they are very powerful from the get go.


And while they have more stuff to spend Karma on, they also have to spend a great deal less on Ware and gear both at creation and in play.

[DarkKindness]

From what I've seen that is a badly needed rebalancing.


Mundanes have been getting the short end of the stick in 4th for a while.


Everyone seems to favor taking awakened and emerged characters because not only are they Kool but they are very powerful from the get go.


And while they have more stuff to spend Karma on, they also have to spend a great deal less on Ware and gear both at creation and in play.

Not so - the restriction of having Edge and Magic/Resonance fall under the half karma spent on attributes limit means that it is very difficult to make a functional Awakened or Emergent character under the Karmagen rules as written. You could, of course, get yourself more points by choosing a non-human metatype, but even then they'll be inferior to almost any non-awakened non-emergent character. That isn't a re-balancing, it's just a solid shafting in the other direction.

The point here is that they have more attributes to spend Karma on, but they flat-out can't because the rules prevent them from doing it. Contrasted to mundane characters, who can generally spread their Karma out in any way that they see fit in order to be successful.

As to the point of people favoring awakened or emergent characters, well, I don't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Out of the six characters that I've made and presented to the board, only two have been awakened, and one of those two is a bio-adept, so is taking a hit to awakened stats. The other is a Mage and was necessary for astral/magical security for the group, so...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not so - the restriction of having Edge and Magic/Resonance fall under the half karma spent on attributes limit means that it is very difficult to make a functional Awakened or Emergent character under the Karmagen rules as written. You could, of course, get yourself more points by choosing a non-human metatype, but even then they'll be inferior to almost any non-awakened non-emergent character. That isn't a re-balancing, it's just a solid shafting in the other direction.

See, this is where I would disagree...

[DarkKindness]

See, this is where I would disagree...

Well, with your average awakened or emergent character spending 1/5 of their available stat Karma on their special stat alone, it doesn't leave a lot of room to build up the remainder of their attributes in any sort of significant way. With stats as strong as they are compared to skills, this leaves such characters at a pretty significant disadvantage, in my experience.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, with your average awakened or emergent character spending 1/5 of their available stat Karma on their special stat alone, it doesn't leave a lot of room to build up the remainder of their attributes in any sort of significant way. With stats as strong as they are compared to skills, this leaves such characters at a pretty significant disadvantage, in my experience.

Only if you tend to maximize your special stats to their fullest potential... Try a Magic/Resonance of 3 or 4... not so bad at that point...

And No, that is not a gimp... But YMMV of Course...

Keep the Faith...

[KCKitsune]

OK, guys... I've just looked at Runners Companion and it didn't have Magic/Resonance tied into Attributes. Attributes are Step 3 and Magic/Resonance stuff is Step 6.

Where did it say that Magic/Resonance stuff is taken from the Attributes pool?

[DarkKindness]

Step 3: Purchase Attributes
Next, purchase the character's attributes (including special attributes)
using the costs given in the Karma Character GenerationTable.
Characters begin with the minimum attribute ratings defined
by their race/metatype. The maximum Karma a character
can spend on their attributes at character generation is half their
starting Karma (rounding up) plus twice the listed BP cost for their
metatype or alternate racial concept. Characters cannot begin the
game with more than one attribute at their natural maximum.
Characters begin with an Essence of 6. The metatype maximum
rating for Edge is 6 (7 for humans); other character races may have
different Edge maximums (refer to their descriptions).

Note that it explicitly includes Edge, unlike the BP gen system and does not exclude Resonance/Magic, also unlike the BP gen system.

Step 6: Purchase Magical and Resonance Resources
Characters with the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic
Adept or another quality that lets them use foci may bind any
foci they purchased by paying the Karma costs listed in the Focus
Bonding Table. Spellcasters may purchase a number of spells up to
their Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting (whichever is higher) skill
x 2. Technomancers may purchase a number of complex forms up
to their Logic x 2.
Magicians may start the game with bound spirits by paying 2
Karma per service owed. The number of services owed may not exceed
the character's Summoning skill, and its Force is equal to the
character's Magic rating. The character cannot have more bound
spirits than her Charisma attribute.
Technomancers may start the game with registered sprites by
paying 2 Karma per task owed. The number of tasks owed may
not exceed the character's Compiling skill, and its Rating is equal
to the character's Resonance. The character cannot have more
registered sprites than her Charisma attribute.

Step 6 has nothing to do with attributes - you've already purchased your Magic/Resonance as part of the 1/2 of your Karma pool that you can spend on attributes in Step 3. Step 6 is the same as its analogue in BP gen - the step where you bond Foci, buy spells and complex forms, and take care of Adept powers.

[KCKitsune]

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

[Kerenshara]

Note that it explicitly includes Edge, unlike the BP gen system and does not exclude Resonance/Magic, also unlike the BP gen system.



Step 6 has nothing to do with attributes - you've already purchased your Magic/Resonance as part of the 1/2 of your Karma pool that you can spend on attributes in Step 3. Step 6 is the same as its analogue in BP gen - the step where you bond Foci, buy spells and complex forms, and take care of Adept powers.

Excellent, I was wondering how our group could have made such a huge "oops" but apparently we didn't. Well, we didn't put EDGe under the cap, but nobody maxed out the cap either, being how skills are paramount at our table.