Missing the broad side of a bus, sigh Options

[BlueMax]

Howdy Dumpshockers! During this weekend's game session, I may have run things wrong and its really bothering me. The bad guys couldn't hit the bus during the great "Race scene". This was not pivotal to the plot so I could care less about the effect for Saturday but I worry about getting this right during future sessions.

Yes, bigger badder drone stats could be made... Gunnery 6 and so on.. Thats not an issue. What is at issue is a bus driving down the road dodging laser fire. Which is awesome, so awesome I want to make sure it was intended.

The drone was killed by a Powerbolt before it got its next shot. As all the drones do at our table.....

Attack Drone 9(7) Dice
(Mitsuhama Tomino (Cyborg Walker Combat Drone))
Gunnery 4
Sensor 3
Smartgun(perhaps not allowed) 2


TM rigger 12 dice
Reaction 5
Handling -3
Ground Vehicles 5 [ TM throws 1 of his 5 IP into Evasive Driving]
Diangostics assistance from Rating 6 Machine Sprite: 4 (this is an average)
Jumped in: +1

The maths may be wrong. Help a runner out.

BlueMax

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Was full auto on wide burst not being used?

[Warlordtheft]

Don't have the rule book in front of me. But, did you forget to add in the tight terrain modifier for the bus? I think that would be an additional -3 for the TM. But given the TM's capabilities-yeah it does make sense.

[BlueMax]

hi hi

Was full auto on wide burst not being used?

The Laser weapons are SA or SS as far as I can tell.

BlueMax

[BlueMax]

Don't have the rule book in front of me. But, did you forget to add in the tight terrain modifier for the bus? I think that would be an additional -3 for the TM. But given the TM's capabilities-yeah it does make sense.

I thought the terrain mods were all Threshold mods?

BlueMax

[Rasumichin]

Arsenal has modifiers for the size of the target in the chapter with optional combat rules.
If you find it implausible that someone misses a very large object, these may be just the right thing for you (even though they may be discouraging for people who want to play troll tanks).

[IceKatze]

hi hi

If I'm not mistaken, if you have a threshold modifier on an opposed test, it subtracts from your net hits. But I'm not entirely sure on that either.

[BlueMax]

Arsenal has modifiers for the size of the target in the chapter with optional combat rules.
If you find it implausible that someone misses a very large object, these may be just the right thing for you (even though they may be discouraging for people who want to play troll tanks).

To be clear, I love the fantasy dodging by the man, Turtle, who *is* his bus whilst driving. However, I want to play Shadowrunas accurately as I can.

BlueMax

[BlueMax]

hi hi

If I'm not mistaken, if you have a threshold modifier on an opposed test, it subtracts from your net hits. But I'm not entirely sure on that either.

I think the two of you are on to something.

When a vehicle is attacked in ranged combat, the driver rolls his
Reaction +/– Handling as the defense part of the Opposed Test.

Now, I did not consider Opposed Tests with Thresholds when I read the above. If, and only if, the driver must meet an extra threshold in this circumstance it would be +1 or +4, Driving down a thuroughfare but this was after a riot blew though, so some burning wreckage.

At the +4 threshold, bam bus gets hit. At the +1, now that I know Drones definitely don't get smartgun he would have still dodged. Now to look up Opposed Tests with varying thresholds.

BlueMax

[DarkKindness]

Where's the rule regarding Smartlink and Drones? Also, does this rule apply to jumped-in riggers not getting the benefit of a Smartlink while in a Drone? I was just asking this the other day...

[Adarael]

Also don't forget to have the drone lock-on first, to get extra dice to zap him.

So you could get a turn that goes like so:

Drone locks on with gunnery, rolling Sensor 3 + Clearsight 4 or Gunnery 4 or whatever is used for the lock-on test (make sure the drones have that) PLUS the Signature of the bus (which I believe is also +3, due to size) for a total of 10 dice. And it'll probably score 4 hits. Then when it fires, it rolls attack with 7 (or 9 dice, if you allow smartgun, but I don't think that's valid) + the 4 dice from the lock-on test, for a total of 11 or 13 dice, and will probably net 5-6 hits.

The TM rigger dodges, and he rolls his 5 Reaction and 5 Skill, and 4 bonus from the sprite and one from the jump in... minus 3 for handling, minus 3 for tight terrain, and is left with 9 dice. Not enough to reliably dodge 5-6 hits.

And that TM isn't even that bad. I had a street sam/rigger who had a buncha ware, and he tossed something like 18-22 dice depending on the vehicle and if he was hot simming or not.

[BlueMax]

I think the two of you are on to something.


Now, I did not consider Opposed Tests with Thresholds when I read the above. If, and only if, the driver must meet an extra threshold in this circumstance it would be +1 or +4, Driving down a thuroughfare but this was after a riot blew though, so some burning wreckage.

At the +4 threshold, bam bus gets hit. At the +1, now that I know Drones definitely don't get smartgun he would have still dodged. Now to look up Opposed Tests with varying thresholds.

BlueMax

Opposed Combat Test page 149 says to just count total hits, so no threshold.

Where are folks finding the Penalty for Tight Terrain in the vehicle rules?

BlueMax

[DarkKindness]

Again, where's a rule regarding drones and smartlinks? I'll agree that it's not valid for the drone by itself, but if the drone had a jumped-in rigger who had an implanted smartlink, I don't see why it shouldn't work. The limitation on the system seems to be that it needs both the smartgun and the smartlink components in order to run trajectory calculations and the like, so I don't see why a jumped-in rigger who had access to both of these components couldn't take advantage of the system...

[BlueMax]

Also don't forget to have the drone lock-on first, to get extra dice to zap him.

So you could get a turn that goes like so:

Drone locks on with gunnery, rolling Sensor 3 + Clearsight 4 or Gunnery 4 or whatever is used for the lock-on test (make sure the drones have that) PLUS the Signature of the bus (which I believe is also +3, due to size) for a total of 10 dice. And it'll probably score 4 hits. Then when it fires, it rolls attack with 7 (or 9 dice, if you allow smartgun, but I don't think that's valid) + the 4 dice from the lock-on test, for a total of 11 or 13 dice, and will probably net 5-6 hits.

The TM rigger dodges, and he rolls his 5 Reaction and 5 Skill, and 4 bonus from the sprite and one from the jump in... minus 3 for handling, minus 3 for tight terrain, and is left with 9 dice. Not enough to reliably dodge 5-6 hits.

And that TM isn't even that bad. I had a street sam/rigger who had a buncha ware, and he tossed something like 18-22 dice depending on the vehicle and if he was hot simming or not.

Doesn't the Rigger get the following to fight the Lock?
(Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction +/– Handling
Infiltration 3
Reaction 5
Handling -3
8 dice, say 4 hits. THat chews into the benefit of aiming.


I may get a chance to use this at some point. However, had he taken the Simple Action for Active Targeting, the drone would not have survived long enough for the next pass to Fire a Vehicle Weapon Complex action.

BlueMax

[X-Kalibur]

Again, where's a rule regarding drones and smartlinks? I'll agree that it's not valid for the drone by itself, but if the drone had a jumped-in rigger who had an implanted smartlink, I don't see why it shouldn't work. The limitation on the system seems to be that it needs both the smartgun and the smartlink components in order to run trajectory calculations and the like, so I don't see why a jumped-in rigger who had access to both of these components couldn't take advantage of the system...

My understanding is that if you are rigging directly you get smartgun bonuses provided you have an implanted version and the weapon has the right equipment.

[DarkKindness]

My understanding is that if you are rigging directly you get smartgun bonuses provided you have an implanted version and the weapon has the right equipment.

Slick. That was my biggest concern for my rigger build, so thanks for the concurring answer. Goes a long way toward being able to take relatively low Gunnery skill and still be relevant in combat.

[Adarael]

I may get a chance to use this at some point. However, had he taken the Simple Action for Active Targeting, the drone would not have survived long enough for the next pass to Fire a Vehicle Weapon Complex action.

BlueMax

I don't believe they can combat the lock through use of Infiltration. I think that's a test vs the ECM of the vehicle+/- Signature, but it's been a long time since I've had anything lock on, so I could very well be mistaken and be mixing SR3/SR4 rules.

And sure, the drone woulda gotten smoked if it locked on, but that's another problem entirely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

About the drone getting smoke, though. It's my memory that a Tomino has a Body of... 4? 5? I'm curious under what circumstances it did get smoked. Because let's suppose a Magic 8 opponent, for the sake of argument. Magic 8 opponent goes, "Pfeh, I toss a Force 8 spell with my die pool of 8 magic and 6 Sorcery and 4 Power Focus for 18 dice. Bwahaha! Die, puny drone!" And then the 20 dice gets a -2 for "Defender Running" due to the speed difference between the two (I'm assuming a speed difference) and probably a -2 to -3 for cover, since you probably can't see the full body of the drone. Maybe even an additional -1 for glare or something, I dunno - there are a lot of environmental modifiers that are often overlooked. This leaves McMage with: 18, -2 for Defender Running/speed difference, -3 for Cover & bad LOS, -1 for glare, leaving him with 12 dice. Which will generally cook up enough to hit the drone in SR4, but not SR4A - 5 hits. Chances to slag the drone with a powerball decrease massively as the base die pool is reduced from my example.

Remember, always apply your ranged combat modifiers to spells as well.

[Jaid]

there is nothing anywhere restricting drones from using smartlinks that i am aware of, even if it's just a drone pilot.

also, i'm a bit confused why a piece of hardware worth hundreds of thousands of credits doesn't have a decent pilot in it. 7 dice to attack? you gotta be kidding me. that's the kind of DP i might expect for a drone that they spent 5-7k on. tominos are crazy expensive.

also, how are they beating the object resistance 5 on these drones so routinely? with 15 dice, you're looking at getting past the object resistance fairly often, but certainly not what i would call consistently. start throwing in visibility mods, not to mention the tomino is going to have lots of damage boxes... what are they hitting it with, 20 dice on the spellcasting test and a force 12 powerbolt?

[BlueMax]

there is nothing anywhere restricting drones from using smartlinks that i am aware of, even if it's just a drone pilot.

also, i'm a bit confused why a piece of hardware worth hundreds of thousands of credits doesn't have a decent pilot in it. 7 dice to attack? you gotta be kidding me. that's the kind of DP i might expect for a drone that they spent 5-7k on. tominos are crazy expensive.

also, how are they beating the object resistance 5 on these drones so routinely? with 15 dice, you're looking at getting past the object resistance fairly often, but certainly not what i would call consistently. start throwing in visibility mods, not to mention the tomino is going to have lots of damage boxes... what are they hitting it with, 20 dice on the spellcasting test and a force 12 powerbolt?

#2 hey man, I didn't make the Tomino's stats. 350,000 and sensor 3. The gunnery 4 I did set under the impression that having Gunnery at 4 was supposedly competent. Tominps' arent even worth the money, but I wanted the shape for visual impact and well... the NPCs didn't have a "budget" per se if it came to looking cool. (Note , it was Hacked/Stolen and driven by the NPC TM who hacked it... not the poor Marine trapped inside)

#3 Spellcasting 6 (starting one skill at 6), Magic 6(started at 5) , Powerfocus 4, and Dragonslayer 2 is what 18 dice? or the 17 he started with months ago. Either way, that makes 6 successes perty darn easy and he usually edges the more dangerous bits like walking drones with Anti-vehicle lasers.
And the drain on a Force 9 Powerbolt is ... what 3? Which he could buy with his crazy elf+charisma based tradition-ness

And those 9 boxes are just the mage... on the first pass. Suddenly the drone is -3 to do anything, making the troll with the BFG's life a great deal easier. (Or if my group of 7 had a second mage... )

BlueMax

[BlueMax]

I don't believe they can combat the lock through use of Infiltration. I think that's a test vs the ECM of the vehicle+/- Signature, but it's been a long time since I've had anything lock on, so I could very well be mistaken and be mixing SR3/SR4 rules.

And sure, the drone woulda gotten smoked if it locked on, but that's another problem entirely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

About the drone getting smoke, though. It's my memory that a Tomino has a Body of... 4? 5? I'm curious under what circumstances it did get smoked. Because let's suppose a Magic 8 opponent, for the sake of argument. Magic 8 opponent goes, "Pfeh, I toss a Force 8 spell with my die pool of 8 magic and 6 Sorcery and 4 Power Focus for 18 dice. Bwahaha! Die, puny drone!" And then the 20 dice gets a -2 for "Defender Running" due to the speed difference between the two (I'm assuming a speed difference) and probably a -2 to -3 for cover, since you probably can't see the full body of the drone. Maybe even an additional -1 for glare or something, I dunno - there are a lot of environmental modifiers that are often overlooked. This leaves McMage with: 18, -2 for Defender Running/speed difference, -3 for Cover & bad LOS, -1 for glare, leaving him with 12 dice. Which will generally cook up enough to hit the drone in SR4, but not SR4A - 5 hits. Chances to slag the drone with a powerball decrease massively as the base die pool is reduced from my example.

Remember, always apply your ranged combat modifiers to spells as well.

AHA
This came up during the game. SR4A states to apply Visibilty Modifiers apply to spells. Please , for the love of Rod, help me find where it states the other mods apply to spells. I would have much rather used them.

I am glad I am not the only one who wants to apply the other mods.

BlueMax

[Adarael]

Powerbolt's drain is actually +1, as I recall. So force 9 should net you a drain value of 6, since you round up for Drain. And 18 dice will definitely crush just about any drone reliably, but it becomes more unreliable if you apply the ranged combat modifiers as above. It'd leave him with 12-13 dice, and that's not quite enough to do it every time. But enough to be able to bank on it if you're gonna blow edge to waste a laser-wielding combat machine. Which I think is probably wise.

In terms of the other mods, I would suggest that a large portion of Defender Running or other speed-difference mods in ranged combat come from visibility, as it relates to not being able to see the target as clearly. Glare definitely applies. Wish I had my book on me, but I don't, since I'm at work.

[BlueMax]

Powerbolt's drain is actually +1, as I recall. So force 9 should net you a drain value of 6, since you round up for Drain. And 18 dice will definitely crush just about any drone reliably, but it becomes more unreliable if you apply the ranged combat modifiers as above. It'd leave him with 12-13 dice, and that's not quite enough to do it every time. But enough to be able to bank on it if you're gonna blow edge to waste a laser-wielding combat machine. Which I think is probably wise.

In terms of the other mods, I would suggest that a large portion of Defender Running or other speed-difference mods in ranged combat come from visibility, as it relates to not being able to see the target as clearly. Glare definitely applies. Wish I had my book on me, but I don't, since I'm at work.

Adarael and Jaid,
Thanks for the reality checks. I am not trying to be argumentative in any form. Please understand that I am looking to verify.

Step 4: Make Spellcasting Test
Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. The Spellcaster rolls
Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits,
and/or Visibility modifiers.

On the Drain, are you saying to round up? What I meant to say 9/2 = 4.5 round to 4 add 1 , 5. 12 dice usually ignore 4...
For a friggin force nine PowerBolt.

[Jaid]

given the cost of upgrading the drone relative to it's base cost and the increased effectiveness in combat, i tend to assume that anyone willing to blow 350k on a drone and 250k on a CCU (plus maintenance and training costs for the cyborg) is willing to spend a few thousand more on making their heavy combat drone a bit more accurate. otherwise, as i said... they would have probably just used a fleet of dobermans or steel lynx drones, or LEBDs, etc... something substantially cheaper, more mobile, and able to put out a heck of a lot more firepower because it's got the ability to fire a dozen times per IP rather than once.

in this case, i would probably have recommended the TM use a sprite to control the tomino instead though... if the TM doesn't even have skill 6 (or at least 4 plus specialisation), he's probably better of calling up a force 6 machine sprite.

also, drones can share info iirc. this implies that they can lock on with some drones, and transfer that information to other drones... so with additional drone support, you could've locked on, and then opened fire. also iirc, when you use sensor assisted gunnery, you no longer use sensor in the attack test, and would instead use response* (and the tomino should probably count as a military drone)

* edit: or command, pilot, etc, depending on method of control.

[Adarael]

On the Drain, are you saying to round up? What I meant to say 9/2 = 4.5 round to 4 add 1 , 5. 12 dice usually ignore 4...
For a friggin force nine PowerBolt.

When you have a fractional value for drain, it should be rounded up, so a Force 1 spell, divided by 2, is .5... but has a final value of 1, since drain is always rounded up. 9/2 = 4.5 -> 5, +1 for the spell, final value of 6.

For visibility modifiers... yeah, it's a little unclear what constitutes a visibility modifier in combat vs. for perception checks, but I've always erred on the side of caution and included Defender Moving/Running, all cover modifiers, and whatnot, just to keep the power of spells high, but not ridiculous. I didn't think you were being argumentative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I'm just loathe to assume Defender Running is NOT somehow vision related.

But really, a lot of this is moot in SR4A, because cover gives bonuses to the defense roll and not penalties to the attack roll in 4A, and unless it's an indirect spell... no defense roll.

[BlueMax]

Jaid,
Thank you for your input on the drone build and tactics. The Tomino was used solely because it looked like a cool toy to the kid, NPC TM, and it was not a tactical operation. I have sent some questions regarding the Sprites over PM as to try to keep focused here on the Attack and Dodge mechanism.

Open questions
* Where does the "Tight Terrain" dicepool modifier come from?
* Do all the Ranged Modifiers apply to Direct Combat Spells? Or only Visibility?


BlueMax