Butching Sacred Cows/Dragons, When are we finally going to see a Great Dragon Bite it Options

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok correct me if i'm wrong but the only great dragons we've seen actually die have either done so at the hands of other dragons or offing themselves. Dragons have taken hits from Orbital lasers with no real affect other then scar tissue. Ghostwalker more or less single handedly kicked the Azzies out of Denver. Another single handedly razed Tehran to the ground. Am I the only one who rolls their eyes a little bit that dragons seem to be the only beings in the whole settign who are out of the realm of possiblity for anyone but themselves. Even immortal elves have bit it (although at the hands of Dragons). Does anyone know what possible point this serves other then to pay homage to earth dawn?

[BlueMax]

Great Dragons being Uber badass sits just fine with me.

BlueMax

[Starmage21]

Great Dragons being Uber badass sits just fine with me.

BlueMax

I tend to think of the dragons we hear about are a step above and beyond the ones we have stats for. I would not make dragons any more difficult to kill than their stats indicate, including great dragons.

[Malachi]

Ghostwalker more or less single handedly kicked the Azzies out of Denver. Another single handedly razed Tehran to the ground.

The term "single handedly" is incorrect. Both of them employed a good number of spirits in their attacks. In Ghostwalker's case this is extra potent since he is described as being (probably) the greatest conjurer in the 6th World.

[LurkerOutThere]

Po-tay-to Po-tot-o as these super powered entities were depicted more or less casualyl waltzing through the considerable magical and military might the azzies had to offer, and if any mega-corp should have had magical punch it should have been the azzies. The ghost walker story was one of the least satisfying bits of that little arc. Hooray another super powered dragon pops up in the world, oh and it turns out he's the greatest conjurer ever dictating terms to nations and corporations alike. Who rather then doing the sensible thing and nuking him allow him to pretty much set up denver as his personal fiefdom with their own forces filling out his assets. Arn't dragons great? THeir so interestign and mysterious what with their ability to casually single handedly take on military powers. It raises the question of why theres corporate powers at all as dragons could esentially be running every signifigant power block on the planet. There's no reason for them to act subtly because nothing can kill them but another dragon.

[BlueMax]

Criticize through creation.
its 2072-3ish, write up what you would like to see.

Trust me, I left Dumpshock for a few years to resist the urge to complain about Surge.

BlueMax
/that rhymed!

[DarkKindness]

It raises the question of why theres corporate powers at all as dragons could esentially be running every signifigant power block on the planet. There's no reason for them to act subtly because nothing can kill them but another dragon.

Two thoughts on this - the first is that is part of the mystery of the Great Dragons - why haven't they just taken over everything? What are they playing at, hoarding all of that massive power and doing (apparently) not much with it?

Secondly - well, you've answered your own question. They act subtly to avoid stepping on each others' toes in obvious ways and instigating a conflict in which they actually stand a chance of being damaged or destroyed.

O.K., so I lied - third thought on the issue - they act subtly and play games like they do essentially because they're all but unkillable immortal beings. If they just stepped in and used brute force to resolve anything, there wouldn't be any sport in life and it would probably get boring right quick.

All of that said, I'm fine with the Great Dragons being as powerful as they're portrayed. They're the godheads of the setting and, as such, are extremely powerful, unpredictable, sometimes capricious, and inscrutable. Despite all of this, they still interact with mortals in a way that we can (basically) understand, and their games affect nations (and extra-national corporate entities) in ways that have repercussions that affect everyone in the Sixth World. They make for great rocks to start the ripples in the pond, so to speak, and are, indeed, pretty mysterious.

[PBI]

The other question that needs asking about the Denver incident is just how much force did Aztlan have there? I've always been under the impression that the various Denver forces were about equivalent to the West Berlin brigades that the NATO powers had in that city, in which case it's not unreasonable that a single Great Dragon could win.

[DarkKindness]

Criticize through creation.
its 2072-3ish, write up what you would like to see.

Trust me, I left Dumpshock for a few years to resist the urge to complain about Surge.

BlueMax
/that rhymed!

Don't even start on SURGE. I never purchased or read those books beyond the first, never will, and will pretend that the section on it in Runner's Companion is, actually, just a few blank pages.

[Demonseed Elite]

The other question that needs asking about the Denver incident is just how much force did Aztlan have there? I've always been under the impression that the various Denver forces were about equivalent to the West Berlin brigades that the NATO powers had in that city, in which case it's not unreasonable that a single Great Dragon could win.

Exactly. While Ghostwalker kicking Aztlan out of Denver is impressive, Denver isn't even part of Aztlan proper. They were restricted in what assets they could keep there by the Treaty of Denver, so it's hardly like Ghostwalker waltzed into Azzie central and booted them out.

I don't much like the whole Ghostwalker-takes-Denver storyline, but it's not the all-powerful accomplishment the original poster makes it out to be. And part of it was surprise; if Aztlan had expected a great dragon and a small army of spirits to cruise into Denver gunning for them, they could have been prepared to deal with it. But that's not the sort of engagement Aztlan's assets in Denver were prepared to face.

And Aztlan hasn't exactly taken the insult lying down. It was a pretty clear signal to Ghostwalker when Aztlan not only sacrificed Dzitbalchen, but also had another dragon (Pobre) turn Dzitbalchen in for them. Dragonkind isn't entirely safe from Aztechnology.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

I think there are two main issues here.

Meta game
Something needs to tie the game into the fiction, at a level beyond the local structure. Most of us have read the books, and many of us have played Earthdawn. Dragons tie the current timeline into and with the books, and Earthdawn. Perhaps we will see the great horrors coming and battling the dragons in the future.



Deus Ex
In the metagame, Dragons are part of the overall mystery. Players need to have something mysterious, or the campaign is basically pointless. GMs need something that they can point to that is tougher than any player however twinked and broken. If a GM needs something to happen, " A dragon did it" or "It was all Lofwyr". If a player is capable of defeating the Deus Ex, why are they still playing? Time to retire and start from 400 BP characters.

[Neraph]

I think there are two main issues here.

Meta game
Something needs to tie the game into the fiction, at a level beyond the local structure. Most of us have read the books, and many of us have played Earthdawn. Dragons tie the current timeline into and with the books, and Earthdawn. Perhaps we will see the great horrors coming and battling the dragons in the future.

This is an imaginary connection, as far as game rules goes. Any game system that requires the familiarity of another system is by design a poor game, and if Shadowrun ever comes to that, I (and many other people, I suspect) will walk away from it like a bad date.

Deus Ex
In the metagame, Dragons are part of the overall mystery. Players need to have something mysterious, or the campaign is basically pointless. GMs need something that they can point to that is tougher than any player however twinked and broken. If a GM needs something to happen, " A dragon did it" or "It was all Lofwyr". If a player is capable of defeating the Deus Ex, why are they still playing? Time to retire and start from 400 BP characters.

Maybe you haven't heard the news, but a while back it was discovered that starting 400 BP "twinked, broken" characters can kill multiple Great Dragons out of the box (so long as said dragons play pretty and line up for the character - simply for the realm of possibility. Said character can still take 1 v 1 though).

In fact, multiple characters have been "twinked" and "broken" so that not even Great Dragons can get past without GM "handwaivum." (I like that word-phrase)

[pbangarth]

Maybe you haven't heard the news, but a while back it was discovered that starting 400 BP "twinked, broken" characters can kill multiple Great Dragons out of the box (so long as said dragons play pretty and line up for the character - simply for the realm of possibility. Said character can still take 1 v 1 though).

In fact, multiple characters have been "twinked" and "broken" so that not even Great Dragons can get past without GM "handwaivum." (I like that word-phrase)

And a paraplegic ork with a rusty knife could kill multiple characters if they were to "play pretty and line up". What does that prove?

[Neraph]

And a paraplegic ork with a rusty knife could kill multiple characters if they were to "play pretty and line up". What does that prove?

Maybe you missed the point. The character simply can kill a great dragon. If multiple greats were within a full-auto burst, he could kill more than one. Allowing them to not line up means he just has to murder them one at a time. That doesn't stop the character from being able to kill them, it just slows him down.

[TBRMInsanity]

Dragon's haven't taken over the world yet because of a couple things:
1. There isn't enough of them to take over the world. They can control their little fiefdoms here and there but it appears that even a Great Dragon's domain is no larger then a single country at best.
2. They are not all on the same page. Any time you have a force that is concerned with both inward and outward threats, you have an advantage as a single faction (in this case one Dragon) would need to kill off all the other Dragons first before taking over the world (not an easy task as even the strongest dragons (GW and LF) are fairly evenly matched).
3. Dragon numbers are critically low (as stated in Dragon's of the Sixth World) and no dragon is interested in furthering their control until they know they have kin to inherit it first. This makes Dragon eggs critical as your literally holding the future of all dracokind in your hands.
4. Super nations (like Azland) have fought against and are currently fighting against dragons and are winning. It isn't an easy fight but there are nations out there that have the might, the magic, and the technology to take down a dragon (if not a great dragon).

IMHO dragons will not be able to conquer the world until they institute a "Rule of Two" type rule that eliminates infighting between dragons and focuses all of the dragons' assets to one unified goal.

[BlueMax]

And a paraplegic ork with a rusty knife could kill multiple characters if they were to "play pretty and line up". What does that prove?

TNSTAAFF?

There is no such thing as a fair fight.

First lesson my father taught me.
"Go ahead , take a swing I'll be gentle."

Dragons are deep planners, so deep, GM handwavium simulates depth because none of us have Logic 15.

BAMMM

BlueMax
/Still Recovering

[Neraph]

Dragons are deep planners, so deep, GM handwavium simulates depth because none of us have Logic 15.

Poor justification for poor planning.

[LurkerOutThere]

Meta game
Something needs to tie the game into the fiction, at a level beyond the local structure. Most of us have read the books, and many of us have played Earthdawn. Dragons tie the current timeline into and with the books, and Earthdawn. Perhaps we will see the great horrors coming and battling the dragons in the future.

I will echo others here and say that I am interested in Shadowrun, not Earthdawn and do not want to see SR chained to Earthdawn's dead body. Furthermore the horrors returning in canon shouldn't be for thousands of years so no I don't see that as a very viable storyline within the context of the Shadowrun story. However I hear there is this game called Eclipse Phase and one by the same company called Cthulu Tech if you want to try that flavor of game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Deus Ex
In the metagame, Dragons are part of the overall mystery. Players need to have something mysterious, or the campaign is basically pointless. GMs need something that they can point to that is tougher than any player however twinked and broken. If a GM needs something to happen, " A dragon did it" or "It was all Lofwyr". If a player is capable of defeating the Deus Ex, why are they still playing? Time to retire and start from 400 BP characters.

There are many many things in the setting that work perfectly fine a Dues Ex if one is absolutely required but those mechanics are best if used sparingly, or not at all. It is very poor story telling to tell someone "Your plans didn't work because this guy can beat you utilaterally, and further more if you broken a roleplaying game down to a simple combat simulator and your only challenges offered are the next beasty to kill, well there are better simulators for that as well i think.

For me at least RPG's are about the story to be told. While mysteries are good, Dragons in Shadowrun are about as Mysterious as a forest fire. They may do things you don't understand but your only interaction boils down to avoid or get killed by them. That's interaction undermines the role playing game portion of things.

[BlueMax]

Poor justification for poor planning.

Is this comment an insult to me for not being as smart as a Logic 15 Dragon? Who made the poor planning? The 400 Point characters, the Dragon, me?
So confused, likely due to poor planning, that I don't know how to react.

The game escapes reality and by that alone parts of it can surpass our comprehension.

Are you an I.E. laughing at us?

BlueMax

[Rasumichin]

Ok correct me if i'm wrong but the only great dragons we've seen actually die have either done so at the hands of other dragons or offing themselves.

The German army shot down a great dragon directly after it awakened, somewhere around 2012 i think.
This actually should happen more often if dragons behave as retarded as Ghostwalker.
We had a thread here a while back where methods to kill great dragons where discussed and it offered some workable methods.
The premise was to find suitable tactics in case a nation or corp had to fend off another scaly Mary Sue running amok.

From the bare stats alone, it's quite easy.
One or two well-placed shots with an Itzcoatl gauss rifle could be enough.

The crucial points are :
-staying out of their reach (not that hard with a gauss rifle or indirectly fired missiles)
-finding them in spite of magical concealment (difficult, but managable- they're glowing like christmas trees on the astral, so just take some astral spotters, let them look at the wyrm and triangulate it's position)
-get past defensive spells such as Armor, Combat Sense and Deflection (this would be the most difficult part, even if you hit them with the most kickass Mana Static you can come up with)

Am I the only one who rolls their eyes a little bit that dragons seem to be the only beings in the whole settign who are out of the realm of possiblity for anyone but themselves.

No, i'm completely with your there.

[ravensmuse]

Like the cycle of magic, it rises again!

As someone's sig says: Shadowrun is not DnD. When it comes to Great Dragons, your team does not collect your dragonlances, does not jump into your Thunderbirds, and do not go knocking scales out of the sky. It's out of genre people!

Great Dragons are a source of plot in Shadowrun and have been all the way from 1e and on. They exist to set up, interfere with, or be the center of a plot and that's it. They set up new background material. They freshen up a stale piece of the setting. They give us mysterious mysteries to play with. And sometimes, they run for President (and I would have voted too, had I been around!).

Some Great Ideas for Great Dragons:

1. Fulfill Wilhelmina Graff-Beloit's dying wish and kick Lofwyr out of Saeder-Krupp. Huzzah! You've now got what could very possibly be a two year long campaign.
2. Your Johnson sets you up with a job to steal some old tech called "records" out of a collector's house - the catch being that they're all by some deader named Elvis.
3. In Hawaii, you're hired to steal two artifacts from the local people - the Eye and Teeth of Storms. Doing a little fact checking will net you stories about a fearsome Shark God... (Oh wait. That's another one of mine. *steals it back*)
4. Go hunting for some Shasta Deer. No seriously! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
5. Got the urge for some ancient history? Draco Foundation versus the Atlanteans. You got your Tomb Raider in my Stargate!
6. Just why the hell did the Azzies sacrifice that dragon? Many minds (including the scaly kind) wonder.
7. Is there really a Great Dragon Mama hiding in the depths of Africa? Let's find out!
8. Ghostwalker was hiding his physical body somewhere in the mountains between DeeCee and Denver. Betcha there's all sorts of goodies hanging out there...
9. For that matter, where the heck was he this whole time? And is he connected to the appearance of the Shedim?
10. Whatever happened to that bunch of crazies that worshipped Dunkelzahn? Actual religion or crazy cult?
11. Dunkelzahn's ghost called - he wants his toenail clippings back.

There. Now instead of arguing about who killed who (hee!) you can go back to what really makes Shadowrun fun - yelling at me for coming up with these stupid ideas!

[LurkerOutThere]

I'll check my copy of Running Wild but i think the dragon the Germans shot at is alive and well and only mildly scarred by the experience. I think it was the one hit by the orbital lance

[ravensmuse]

Uh, IIRC, wasn't that one stunned by the orbital cannon and then pk'd by Lofwyr? He was attached to Shockwaves.

I could totally be wrong on this one and I'd love for a full translation of Shockwave one of these days.

[LurkerOutThere]

That could be the case, i'll may do up a chart, but my point still stands no dragon has died by means other then a dragons actions.

[Fix-it]

That could be the case, i'll may do up a chart, but my point still stands no dragon has died by means other then a dragons actions.

you're making that assumption because no one knows who offed the Big D.