Melee combat questions (adept can't hit himself) Options

[malichai]

We just started playing SR4a and I'm curious as to whether I understand how melee combat works.
Assume an adept character has:
8 agility
8 reaction
6 unarmed skill
1 reflex recorder for unarmed
enhanced articulation
4 levels improved unarmed
5 levels combat sense
Reakt geneware

The way we understand it is this character has 20 dice to punch someone, but he's blocking with 27 dice. After he initiates and raises his magic and bumps his combat sense up to 6, he'd be blocking with 28 dice. Is this correct? So if this adept fought his doppleganger, they'd seem to just be slap-fighting until someone else showed up to gun one of them down?

[toturi]

We just started playing SR4a and I'm curious as to whether I understand how melee combat works.
Assume an adept character has:
8 agility
8 reaction
6 unarmed skill
1 reflex recorder for unarmed
enhanced articulation
4 levels improved unarmed
5 levels combat sense
Reakt geneware

The way we understand it is this character has 20 dice to punch someone, but he's blocking with 27 dice. After he initiates and raises his magic and bumps his combat sense up to 6, he'd be blocking with 28 dice. Is this correct? So if this adept fought his doppleganger, they'd seem to just be slap-fighting until someone else showed up to gun one of them down?

Does Enhanced Articulation work to boost Unarmed? Can you have 4 levels of Improved Unarmed with only a Rating 6 skill?

[malichai]

I'm pretty sure enhanced articulation boosts Unarmed. If you can't have 4 levels of Improved Unarmed, assume, instead, Aptitude and 7 base ranks in Unnarmed. The question is really about the 20 offense, 27 defense.

[Sma]

Yes, when you start out with a melee pool that is as big as your opponent and then proceed to add defense dice you will have more defense dice than offense dice.

[Waco Kid]

Enhanced Articulation adds a die to Physical skills. Unarmed is a Combat skill. Look at the Skills chapter to see which skills fall under the Physical skill category.

Since you've spent more resources on defense, obviously your adept is better at that. But don't think 27 dice will always beat 20 dice. At contact with reality, that will quickly prove erroneous (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So the two dobbelgangers will have a hard time breaching each others defense but eventually one of them will prevail. As it should be IMO. It's very hard to make contact with a very skilled opponent.

[McAllister]

If you want to hit better, keep pumping Agility, or replace Reakt with Synch. Alternatively, sneak up behind him.

[rathmun]

My personal favorite for dealing with high defense melee foes is the counterstrike power. if they don't attack you, great, just keep flailing until you eventually connect. if they do attack you, then you get to use Reaction + Unarmed + Combat Sense to block, and any net successes plus your counterstrike rating are added to your next attack against them.

[Dashifen]

What the Waco Kid (totally read it as "wacko" first) said is probably your answer. While 20 vs. 27 dice seems like the 27 should always win, fact is they're more likely to win, but not guaranteed.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Or, to put it another way, 1st one to blow edge is likely the winner.

[Androcomputus]

I would say it would depend on who uses the terrain the best... situational modifiers might put one over 27 dice for offense or lower the defense dice below 20.

IE: If you grab a handful of sand and blind the doppleganger, I doubt he will have 27 dice on the defense. I will edit the post later tomorrow when I look up the situational modifiers for things like being blinded, prone, distracted, surprised, having higher ground...

Without the situational modifiers, it would come down to the raw statistics of how often does 20 dice beat 27... At the table it would be boring but in the game I imagine two skilled fighters blocking, parrying, and throwing attacks...

[Mr. Mage]

Also keep in mind that in some cases, more dice means bigger chance to fail. Think about it, for each individual die, there is about a 67% chance of rolling a 1-4 (ones of course, contribute to glitches) so the more dice, the more individual chances to roll 1-4.
Now, Theoretically, it doesn't really work that way, based on statistics and such, but sometimes it seems like it does.

Another thing to think about is whether you use "Rule of Sixes"(w/o edge) or not, because that's just a whole nother ballpark there....

And like other people have said, Meta-game wise, it's kinda like two skilled fighters trading blows and blocking one another until one of them fumbles and creates an opening....in RL it really only takes one hit to knock someone down, but a fight could still go on for pretty long...

[RunnerPaul]

I would say it would depend on who uses the terrain the best... situational modifiers might put one over 27 dice for offense or lower the defense dice below 20.

How quickly this goes from "So what now, Jack Sparrow? Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle until Judgment Day and trumpets sound?" to "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground."

[rathmun]

How quickly this goes from "So what now, Jack Sparrow? Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle until Judgment Day and trumpets sound?" to "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground."

You expected something else? Remember, this is Shadowrun. No one has the time for an extended fight between two defense monkeys. If the melee specialist in the team can't handle the opponent quickly, expect their friends to do something about it.

[Mr. Mage]

You expected something else? Remember, this is Shadowrun. No one has the time for an extended fight between two defense monkeys. If the melee specialist in the team can't handle the opponent quickly, expect their friends to do something about it.

Sounds like damn good advice to me!
Nuke the site from orbit just to be sure!

and it's not "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground."
it's "It's over Anakin, this high ground grants me a +2 circumstance bonus to attacks!"