Looking to play...or GM... Options

[CollateralDynamo]

I think two Zodiacs with one unassembled and stored on the Classique should be good for us.

I like 'em all, and I vote for your upgrades as well. But I don't see any guns.

Also, what about the Ducted Waterjet? -4 to detect it. Satellite Communication? Also are we adding Gunports, Weapon Mounts, Torp Launchers? Drone Racks?

Whoops, replied late. Though I don't think it'd be too bad if we get pulled over and have a few guns, our employer will square that away won't they? Cham Coating sounds great.

Chameleon Coating will run us 24K and since the sun cell doesn't work anyways that can be added to the list.

Ducted Waterjet seems pointless as our ship is already so big.

Satellite Communication could be done, but it would involve adding a huge dome to our ship, it seems a better option to just get it for our commlinks since it won't make for an unusual ship mod. But we could do it.

Gunports is a possibility, but at this point I would have to say that they would be just too suspicious for us to have any legitimacy. Weapon mounts and torpedo launchers would be very obvious. I would propose we get those on a small vessel that we take with us places. Perhaps on a zodiac (along with the ducted jets if possible). Drone Racks is a possibility, but that needs our Riggers input.

[Marwynn]

Keep it, I say. It's 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and will come in handy for when we do get shot at. We can't always assume we'd remain invisible, or won't be targets ourselves.

[MusicMan]

Off the current topic.


I has a question for Budoka:
How did your character make it through an entire military enlistment and manage to not pick up a single firearms skill? You should at least have something like Firearms Skill Group 1 or Automatics 1...



Back on topic:

I think that our best defense will be evasion/deception. I honestly don't think we need gun turrets or any somesuch. Think about it this way... given the nature of what we do, if we are found, it'll be by a formal security force, they will attempt to board us and seize our cargo. We're not paramilitary, and we're not running a warship. They'll want evidence, and they'll want to take whatever we've stolen back. This means that sinking us will be a bad idea.

The military/Coast Guard doesn't sink smugglers and pirates unless they absolutely have to. They capture them, because they want to recover the material cargo that was stolen. Furthermore, putting smugglers and pirates on trial is better publicity than just sinking them.

[CollateralDynamo]

Military boarding us is one potential option. But you also need to consider other pirates, organized crime syndicates, runners hired by disgruntled people to take us down, sea dragons, other crazy things I can come up with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Marwynn]

That's assuming they own the stuff to begin with. What if we're recovering stolen property? Sinking us seems like a good two-for-one.

It's the same principle we apply to our characters. My guy doesn't wear armour hoping to get into a fight, just when he does get shot at it'll save him. Also, we're fairly legal aren't we? With Letters of Marque? Unless it's a national navy that doesn't care about corp policies we can flash that.

We can have both Evasion/Deception and Defense.

[Penta]

...The LoMs are secret, Marwynn.

It's like any other shadowrun in that regard, your employment contracts are not for public knowledge.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MusicMan]

There is no letter of marque... it's a Mr. J giving us his "nod of approval." I think it just means that we have consistant work from the same group.

[Marwynn]

D'oh!

Well all the more reason to be prepared I say.

[Knight Saber]

Here are some numbers for a submersible version of the Cutlass patrol craft... I picture it as one refitted as a covert ops ship from the 2030s, recently sold as surplus... of course, the government might want some off-the-books favors in exchange for the sale to my character.

Cutlass (which has 2 pintel mounts, so light machineguns can be attached to them or stowed as needed)

Ballast Tanks 128K
Large Landing Drone Rack 20K
Ducted Waterjets 3.2K
Life Support Level 2 128K
Rigger Adaption 2.5K
Satillite Communications .5K
Searchlight 1.2K
Smoke Projector .7K
Smuggling Compartment x2 6K
Weapon Mount: Reinforced, Concealed, Heavy Flex Turret, Armored and Remote Control 25.5K holding
GM Light Cannon 50K

That comes to 455,600, with money left for ammo, drones, a pickup truck, etc. Too crazy?

[MusicMan]

I agree that armor would be good (and explainable), but how much better can we do with weapons mounts equipped with whatever we can buy, than we can do with small arms? I figure that rifles and LMGs will put out just as much firepower than anything we could put on a mount... unless you guys want a frackking deck gun?

If we get into a battle where it comes down to mounted weapons, we'll have lost in the first place. We might as well focus on not fighting that battle. If it comes up... we can mount up in the zodiacs and haul drek.

[Penta]

I have one question. Instead of a submersible Cutlass, why wouldn't the gov't just...build a sub?

[Marwynn]

Appearances?

I like that ship... or boat.

[MusicMan]

I just crunched a few numbers:


Any of the LMGs or MMGs listed in Arsenal, when used with APDS rounds have higher damage potential than a GM Light Cannon. FA at 6 trumps the SA at 13.

Secondly, if we REALLY must put out that much damage and get the AP value, a Ballista with AV rockets will give us alot more bang for our buck as we can use it in more places and it is even more concealable. Or we can just buy LAWs...

I'd also like to point out that mounted weapons require the Gunnery Skill, which only two of us have so far, and we don't really have much of it. If we use something like a PJSS with ADPS we can use the longarms skill, which we have MUCH more of.

[Marwynn]

Well my character has Heavy Weapons 1, but I figure I can be doing more than shooting when shipboard fights happen.

[Penta]

Indeed.

To prevent tailchasing, I'm going to throw you all some OOC hints, doing my best to not reveal key plot details. You've wondered what a Voice of God post looks like: This is it.

---
Your employer has a navy. If they had wanted to get some beatdowns going...They would use it.

My intent for the campaign is subtlety. You will get your chances to whip out the toys, believe me.

But you want to blend in. You are not a warfighting asset, though tensions ICly are high. Explosively so.

You are an intelligence-gathering asset primarily, commerce raiding a very close secondarily, stand-up fighting last of all.

The fact that you'll get to raid ships and be all pirate-y is to your employer a bonus.

It's how you'll make your money, but it is not necessarily the objective of the operation.
---

So don't think like a warship. Think like a spy. Think like...Privateers.

[MusicMan]

I have a suggestion on the turrets: why not use Smart Firing Platforms (SR4, pg. 311) equipped with L/MMGs and/or Rifles with APDS ammo (or whatever). My character is built as an armorer/advanced marksman and has a datajack... he can wire the platforms into his datajack and give them orders as needed. If we upgrade their pilot and autosoft they can provide some serious fire support.

[Marwynn]

I don't think we were really planning on becoming a WarShip (not with a Classique anyway). But rather for the inevitable confrontation. Do we expect these naval patrols to have magic support? Otherwise, give my character some warning and we can go all "These are not the droids you're looking for" against the run-of-the-mill guys.

Defensively speaking, we can probably get away with Concealed Armour. It's restricted but we can forge a license for that, no?

ECM's Forbidden, but a necessity. Also, if we can get a license for a Missile Defense System (requiring an Improved Sensor Array) we can pass off the guns as a defensive measure. But again that may just be much ado about nothing, the trick is not getting shot at I know. But it's nice to have something for when you do get shot at.

Weapon mounts get big and pricey fast. Might not actually be worth it, come to think about it.

Drone Racks would probably be a necessity. How many of our guys are rigging? Even if we only have one they can be useful.

Also, do we have a refrigerated storage bay? Might be useful, even if it's just for our own use.

How about a submersible Classique? That Cutlass' Level 2 Life Support seems to be way too pricey, I have it at Body x 2000, and the Cutlass has a body of 16, so 32000. Ballast Tanks L1 should cost the same.

Slightly pricier on a Classique... give me a moment or three.

[Knight Saber]

I have one question. Instead of a submersible Cutlass, why wouldn't the gov't just...build a sub?

Apperances, as mentioned... The surface arm of the navy wanting to get one over on the submarine arm, or it was proposed by a contractor who had family ties with Congress that let it get a limited production run. It's an eccentric idea, and deliberately so. The GM could put some limitations on the submersible capacity... it probably leaks, for starters.

As far as combat. the cannon would be useful for warning shots on unarmed craft... a cannon fired across the bow will make a much, much bigger impression than a spray of machinegun fire, and missiles are expensive to waste like that.

Vis a vis taking a yacht as the ship, it could have the cover (and even day job?) as a charter fishing boat. People sitting on the deck not doing much wouldn't attract any attention on one those, and the rocket launcher/LMG level of weapons, easily concealed in smuggling compartments, would be pretty efficient and genre appropriate.

[Marwynn]

Okay guys, consider this heavily modified Classique III.

CODE

Classique III            24    235000
Additional Fuel Tank            1    1000
Concealed Armour (20)            2    20000
Ballast Tanks (L1)            1    48000
Chameleon Coating            1    24000
Drone Rack (Large)            4    4000
ECM (10)            1    10000
Fuzzy Logic            1    2500
Improved Economy            1    4375
Improved Sensor Array            1    1000
Interior Cameras            0    2400
Life Support (L2)            3    48000
Rigger Adaptation            1    2500
Satellite Communication            1    500
Searchlight             1    1200
Smoke Projector            1    700
Smuggling Compartment(Sh)            1    6000
Smuggling Compartment(Sh)            1    6000
Winch (Std)            1    600

Total: 417775 :nuyen: 23/24 mod slots

That uses up almost all 24 mod slots. Yes, it's pricey. We can trim the costs here and there (ECM 10 anyone?) but I think it's worth the price. Also, I don't think SatCom is going to be that big a deal, we get portable satlinks for our commlinks.

[Knight Saber]

Here's a thought... instead of "submersible ship" what about a Cutlass with Hydrofoils to start with? That'd give it incredible speed, 120 on the water... They'd be below the water when not in use, so it'd look like any other broken down surplus hull, but it was actually a limited-production surprise pursuit vehicle. There was a ship like that in the GI Joe comic, an unassuming freighter with some extras like hydrofoils and a phalanx.

[Penta]

Apperances, as mentioned... The surface arm of the navy wanting to get one over on the submarine arm, or it was proposed by a contractor who had family ties with Congress that let it get a limited production run. It's an eccentric idea, and deliberately so. The GM could put some limitations on the submersible capacity... it probably leaks, for starters.

A leaking submersible is a submersible that doesn't come back up. Just a thought.

Meanwhile, the yacht as charter is an idea that makes your GM smile.

[CollateralDynamo]

Total: 417775 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 23/24 mod slots

That uses up almost all 24 mod slots. Yes, it's pricey. We can trim the costs here and there (ECM 10 anyone?) but I think it's worth the price. Also, I don't think SatCom is going to be that big a deal, we get portable satlinks for our commlinks.

Marwynn: I don't want my yacht to be submersible, that may just be me tho. The cost is stupid high and the benefit is not. Sure we can hide beneath the seas when everything goes south, but i'd rather handle the foe and flee at maximum speed then sink and run off.

But, if others like the 100k sinking ship idea, you included the luxury cost in the cost of your classique, GM said we can take that out and get 10K back. I would also recommend we also pick up signiture masking at at least 4. Which means we need to dump a few mods. I'm not sure that smoke projector is worth squat. It only is a 30 meter radius after a full round and if its windy it goes away in no time. Stick a smoke projector on a zodiac and i am with you. On our big old base ship, I don't think so. I kind of think the same for the search light. It looks weird to have that on a yacht. You could use the cover of late night deep sea fishing...but it seems something we could easily get rid of. Also, I believe VoG told us that we only need one smuggling compartment upgrade and its assumed to be a few seperate hiding places.

Knight: Has the GM ruled that we could all fit comfortably on a Cutlass? If so, I could support the hydrofoil plan, but we'd need some really stellar fake permits to start getting away with having some of that stuff. What is the cost without sinking and with some hyrofoils and boost capacity.

MusicMan: I don't think we really need a weapon mount either, I don't see it as necessary. Smart firing platforms seem a cheap solution. What about throwing a fixed firing mount on a zodiac? Then we can still fire warning shots, possibly remotely with a rigger from an empty zodiac boat.

After tweaking my ship design: take my post upthread and:
- subtract nitrous injection and the second smuggling compartment
- add concealed armor 20
- add Signature Masking 4
- add chameleon coating
This brings the mod slots up 21, and the total cost to 305.85K. The main thing that it is missing that I could still fit into my design is a drone rack. There is not enough space left for a weapon mount with the current mod list. However, my option is so far the cheapest, which gives us wiggle room on smaller, secondary vehicles with things like smoke projectors, weapons, and other crazy upgrades.

[Penta]

I'm going to do something I'd promised myself I wouldn't do...Basically throw you guys my ideas, totally unstatted but my ideas, on the ship I would have imposed on you had you really come up with nothing.

This is explicitly NOT a Voice of God post. Rather, it's a suggestion. I want it to be debated and argued with.
---

First, start with the Classique, just for argument's sake. It takes handwaving until you consider that when the other group did it, starting as you guys did by stripping out the luxury accommodations, they actually got a huge whack of space. I'm going to presume the Classique III seen in Arsenal is bigger than the Classique seen in R3, ok? The 1 person per 2 body rule is a rule of thumb at best. I would be flexible with it, especially if you're downgrading quarters. (It actually looks to my eyes more like a patrol boat than a yacht when you look at the pic. Hey, I'm blind, but it does.)

Second: Actually consider: Dwarves and Trolls would fit very badly aboard a ship. Not everything can be modified to fit them, including essential systems...And with trolls, the cramped conditions of most ships come even more into evidence.

Third: Go with a new-build. ICly, your employer would be generous and give you guys only the best to start with (it is in his interests to see the mission succeed after all), in exchange for your services. Even a new ship can have character...Especially one as heavily modded as you'll inevitably turn it out to be before the sucker even gets delivered. If you -want- to go with a used build, I reserve the right to impose flaws.

Fourth: Work up a story, then pick a ship that works with the story.

This was the mistake I made with chargen - resulting in Budoka's getting through a military enlistment with no firearms skills, something that is less his fault than my fault for not catching. I didn't make it explicit.

In my view of any RP environment, you write the background...then do the stats. Not all at once, not stats with a justifying story. Story, then stats. What's done is done, but when it comes to future characters and this ship, we're going to do it right. I've never hidden that I'm learning as I go, and I thank you all for putting up with that process.

Fifth: Think surprise. You can actually arm your ship...But hey, I suggest the weapons be on concealable mountings.

Coast Guard tends to freak out when anybody but them is armed, after all.

Sixth: About the only activities your employer will ban you from doing is attacking his ships....and engaging in the slave trade. The latter, you will understand why when you figure out who it is, he will persecute with extreme prejudice. (Not that I'm banning you OOCly from that rioute, but it would come with heavy IC consequences.)

Finally, as this post is huge: Let me re-emphasize: story, then stats. A limited production ship is unlikely to wind up in the hands of you guys, it'd be parked in a secret museum. (Yes, there are such things.) Subtlety, not stand-up fighting.

[Penta]

Some actual Voice of God stuff:

Characters - until play starts, you get a one-time opportunity to withdraw your posted character and change it. Not change it wholesale, but to flesh out the background, fiddle with the sheet, whatever, for whatever reason. Call it GM learning credit. Talk to me if you want to do this. Again, you may only do this once, and only until play starts.

MusicMan is essentially my go-to guy on military sheets - making sure I don't miss anything stupid. I make the final calls, but I mention this to make a broader point: if you have specialist knowledge, I'm willing to listen if contacted privately. I'm a setting geek, not a rules geek. In the real world, I'm a gimpy...geek. I used to be rated as "above-average" intelligence as a kid, not Mensa but enough for gifted programs...not sure how much that holds true now, but my spectrum of interests remains wide; I know a little about a lot. I use that base of knowledge liberally here.

CollateralDynamo wins 2 karma for doing yeoman's work keeping the numbers straight. This is karma to be spent later...and it's his job to remember he earned it.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Knight Saber: I have your background and sheet. I'm going over it with a fine-toothed comb, in part because you took a while to get it to me and I have the time to go over it. *shrugs* Not your fault, but the slower you are, the more I notice.

Ship stuff, I'm going to let you guys keep arguing on til you come to a consensus. When I see things turning into tailchasing, I'll speak up. Similar if I think you're misinterpreting the setting.

I'd like, PMed, some suggestions as to posting format and such. I'm not a very visual person, unsurprisingly, so help in making IC posts look good but be readable is welcome. If there's a dumpshock standard, please tell me.

[CollateralDynamo]

Thanks for the direction GM, I think one of the problems we are having with putting a real story behind our boat now is we are unsure what its going to be doing a few in-game months down the line. We have vague concepts, but who knows which way it will go.

That said, I'm already seeing stories emerge from the four different vehicles we have proposed, here are some concepts that I already see:

Marwynn's Submersible Yacht: A yacht that is submersible is not difficult to believe in the least. Originally it was created to give those rich kids a chance to go down beneath the surface and wave at their wealthy friends snorkling in the reefs. In the end though, it was bigger and better yachts that stole the hearts of the Tad's and Trixie's that wanted to spend their parents money and the boat model was abandoned...for a time. Eventually the model of boat fell into the hands of a different type of user. It still runs cover with the chameleon coating showing itself off as any one of dozens of high-rate tourist companies. But now it a few less then legitimate mods to cause confusion and escape if necessary.

Knight's Submersible Cutlass: A small group within the navy has been looking into the capability of underwater surveillance/gun class vessels. In the end it was still not the most profitable program and the early versions of the vessel were sold off at private auction to cover expenses. Only the most prestigious of collectors even know of the project, let alone how many of these vessels were sold to private interests. But one found their way to the ports of Miami, and Mr. J thinks it might just be the thing we need.

Knight's High Speed Cutlass: The seas are lawless, but the Coast Guard of the CAS and UCAS do their best, not to mention the Cuban Nationals. Smugglers are always trying to outrun blockades, so this "Smuggler Buster" vehicle design is fairly common in the Carib. Its never sold to private interests before being demilled, but with a few connections and money in the right hands, you can find a weak link. As long as you are broadcasting a believable Fake SIN as a Navy man, you can usually get away with the illicit gear..assuming nobody looks too close...and assuming you are in the right nation's waters.

CollateralDynamo's Fortress Yacht: The wealthy love to spend their money. On top of this, the wealthy love to be kept safe. This vessel was originally contracted by a wealthy (but paranoid) industrialist working out of Miami. Unfortunately, the boat took too long in construction and, by the time it was finished, the original buyer was taking a long dirt nap. His loss, however, is the Shadow's gain. A few calls to the right people put this custom designed and highly defensible ship into our very capable and loving hands.

These are just rough thoughts and I don't want to step on the toes of anyone making their ships if you have your own story for them that you've yet to share. I'm just attempting to illustrate the different ways our ships could appear, fall into our hands, and to a lesser extent, how we could play them off while we own them. Thoughts?