[Shadowrun 4 Core]Riggers Options

[The Monk]

A dedicated rigger would be spending all his time jumped into a drone. Using drone mounted weapons, scouting with drones, etc. Taking over other people's drones is the hacker's job. The rigger's job is to blow up the other rigger.

[eidolon]

See, I find that to be a very limited view.

Your biggest challenge will be maintaining signal range in an area that is devoid of actual signals...

Repeater drones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See, I find that to be a very limited view.



Repeater drones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Agreed... but taking one repeater out of the link downlines your access... I prefer Satellite Link myself

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A dedicated rigger would be spending all his time jumped into a drone. Using drone mounted weapons, scouting with drones, etc. Taking over other people's drones is the hacker's job. The rigger's job is to blow up the other rigger.

Actually a dedicated rigger will probably not spend a lot of time in a single drone... he will be running groups of them, keeping an eye on everything around him and possibly even "recruiting" other drones throughout the area...

[The Monk]

Actually a dedicated rigger will probably not spend a lot of time in a single drone... he will be running groups of them, keeping an eye on everything around him and possibly even "recruiting" other drones throughout the area...

Doesn't that mean you are also hacking?

[RunnerPaul]

Agreed... but taking one repeater out of the link downlines your access...

Sure, if you only have enough to create a single linear chain. If you stop being stingy, and put out enough repeaters that they can each mesh with three or four others, it becomes that much harder to take out your lines of communication. It's why DARPA invented the internet, it's why NeoNET started the Wireless Matrix Initiative, that's how Dad did it, that's how America does it... and it's worked out pretty well so far.

[eidolon]

Doesn't that mean you are also hacking?

Precisely my point. To me, to be a "full rigger" you have to be part hacker.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, if you only have enough to create a single linear chain. If you stop being stingy, and put out enough repeaters that they can each mesh with three or four others, it becomes that much harder to take out your lines of communication. It's why DARPA invented the internet, it's why NeoNET started the Wireless Matrix Initiative, that's how Dad did it, that's how America does it... and it's worked out pretty well so far.

I agree with you here RunnerPaul, however most riggers do not have the resources to create a Mesh Network out of the Sahara or Gobi Deserts reliably... thus it is my contention that rather than trying to obtain enough drones to do so, it is FAR more economical to mount a Satellite Link on all of your drones and pick one up for yourself... problem solved...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Doesn't that mean you are also hacking?

As Eidolon has stated... it is very hard to be a Prime Rigger without having the need for hacking skills... it is part and parcel in what you do as a Rigger...

Setting up a Rigger than can in no way Hack is a sure way to guarantee that you will not be performing your duties as a Rigger for very long... if you cannot defend yourself from an invading hacker or rigger who is attempting to take over your drone, you are royally screwed...

[The Monk]

Precisely my point. To me, to be a "full rigger" you have to be part hacker.

That is my point as well. A "dedicated" rigger is not as fun as a "full rigger" or someone that does rigging + hacking (usually into other vehicles). But watch out, its a slippery slope once you go down that path. Because now you need cyber combat, attack programs, so on and so forth.

A rigger is someone that "jumps into" a device, usually a drone. A "dedicated" rigger, well I guess he would be dedicated to doing just that. Of course you can always use agents to do your dirty work, and still be a dedicated rigger. That's probably the direction I would go if I didn't want to dedicate any Karma to hacking and cybercombat.

As far as electronic warfare goes, the only uses for a dedicated rigger would be to capture a signal or to jam on the fly. Capturing the signal used to be more useful when you could edit the data that you capture, but alas I think that you can no longer do that. Tracing the user to gather an access ID to prepare for a spoof is good, but unless you have some time to do this, it just takes too long. Ultimately you don't need any of the cracking skills to be a dedicated rigger.

[The Monk]

As Eidolon has stated... it is very hard to be a Prime Rigger without having the need for hacking skills... it is part and parcel in what you do as a Rigger...

Setting up a Rigger than can in no way Hack is a sure way to guarantee that you will not be performing your duties as a Rigger for very long... if you cannot defend yourself from an invading hacker or rigger who is attempting to take over your drone, you are royally screwed...

True enough, but you can dedicate your BP, Karma, nuyen to slowing the hacker down long enough to get a bead on him and blow his ass up. And instead of being a poor cyber combatant, you can have IC and data bombs protecting your network.

[DireRadiant]

And YES!!!! Give me Rigger 4!!!!!! Hear that Mr. New Line Developer!?!? The masses are speaking out for more riggery things!

You do know what comes right after Rigger 4?

[Jaid]

Precisely my point. To me, to be a "full rigger" you have to be part hacker.

sure, and if you're going to be a good auto-body mechanic, you're going to have to know a thing or two about welding. this does not mean that anyone is in a hurry to fire all their welders and replace them with auto-body mechanics, interestingly enough.

like i said, just pick up hacking 2 (vehicles +2) or even hacking 1 (vehicles +1). you are not quite respectable at hacking vehicles, and you suck at hacking anything else unless it's not much more complicated with a vending machine. is it that hard to imagine that someone who spends much of their time subverting a vehicle's computer systems might have just a teensy bit of insight into hacking a computer that isn't in a vehicle?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

True enough, but you can dedicate your BP, Karma, nuyen to slowing the hacker down long enough to get a bead on him and blow his ass up. And instead of being a poor cyber combatant, you can have IC and data bombs protecting your network.

You can use the Hacker-in-a-Box, IC and Data Bombs on the Access ports for a good portion of protecting your assets or acquiring more, but do not be surprised when they fail you, after all they are just speed bumps to the competent hacker/rigger... your theory for blowing his ass up is only valid if the Hacker so involved is in the immediate vicinity... makes it kind of hard to do so when he is 20 miles away, safe in his command couch... especially when he is employing his 5 drones to your one... kind of makes a difference when the Competent Rigger brings more toys to the party than you do...

[The Monk]

You can use the Hacker-in-a-Box for a good portion of protecting your assets or acquiring more, but do not be surprised when they faiol you... your theory for blowing his ass up is only valid if the Hacker so involved is in the immediate vicinity... makes it kind of hard to do so when he is 20 miles away, safe in his command couch...

Yes, but unless you have your own hacker on overwatch, you are in trouble no matter what. The last thing you want to do is hack into a vehicle, that is slaved to the hacker's commlink.

If the hacker got into your commlink, at least you have forced him to detect your hidden node, decrypt your signal, hack into your commlink, defeated your IC, and disabled your data bombs. If you hack into his commlink with your two dice at cybercombat, you've just served yourself to him on a silver plater.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but unless you have your own hacker on overwatch, you are in trouble no matter what. The last thing you want to do is hack into a vehicle, that is slaved to the hacker's commlink.

If the hacker got into your commlink, at least you have forced him to detect your hidden node, decrypt your signal, hack into your commlink, defeated your IC, and disabled your data bombs. If you hack into his commlink with your two dice at cybercombat, you've just served yourself to him on a silver plater.

And yet you assume that I would only have 2 dice... You do not have to be the combat gumby... hacking into his comlink is the first step, at which point you do as I do and drop a Batiworm in it, as well as an IC program to cover your actions and keep him busy... while he deals with those threats, you can continue with unsubscribing the drone from his link and subscribing it to yours... then disconnect while your cover is keeping him busy...

As for keeping the attacking Hacker busy in your own link; once he has bypassed all of your security, what do you intend to do with him then, throw cookies at him? You must be able kick him out yourself when all else fails... If you are incapable of dealing adequately with intruders, you will not be a rigger long, as you will have no drones to command/Rig... that is the plain truth of it...

Easy Peasy...

[The Monk]

And yet you assume that I would only have 2 dice... You do not have to be the combat gumby... hacking into his comlink is the first step, at which point you do as I do and drop a Batiworm in it, as well as an IC program to cover your actions and keep him busy... while he deals with those threats, you can continue with unsubscribing the drone from his link and subscribing it to yours... then disconnect while your cover is keeping him busy...

As for keeping the attacking Hacker busy in your own link; once he has bypassed all of your security, what do you intend to do with him then, throw cookies at him? You must be able kick him out yourself when all else fails... If you are incapable of dealing adequately with intruders, you will not be a rigger long, as you will have no drones to command/Rig... that is the plain truth of it...

Easy Peasy...

If you have devoted your BP, Karma, and nuyen to be a good hacker, you are going to defeat someone that dedicated their character to piloting, gunnery, etc. That is correct, is this what we are arguing about?

There are other tricks for a dedicated rigger, you can use ECMs to jam signals, you can turn off your wireless signals and use laser links.

All I'm saying is that you can be a dedicated rigger, you don't have to be rigger+hacker. Yes you are restricting yourself, but hey, that is what you are setting off to do. A character that is controlling an army of drones with command from the comfort of his couch, has the skills to rebuff any attempts to hack his network, and can infiltrate other hacker's networks to subvert his drones is not a "dedicated" rigger, he is a hacker.

What we are arguing about ultimately is how you assign your resources. Without the burden of raising your cracking skills, you can dedicate your Karma to raising other things that can help you rig your drones. With the right equipment and planing you can slow down hackers or be completely immune from them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you have devoted your BP, Karma, and nuyen to be a good hacker, you are going to defeat someone that dedicated their character to piloting, gunnery, etc. That is correct, is this what we are arguing about?

There are other tricks for a dedicated rigger, you can use ECMs to jam signals, you can turn off your wireless signals and use laser links.

All I'm saying is that you can be a dedicated rigger, you don't have to be rigger+hacker. Yes you are restricting yourself, but hey, that is what you are setting off to do. A character that is controlling an army of drones with command from the comfort of his couch, has the skills to rebuff any attempts to hack his network, and can infiltrate other hacker's networks to subvert his drones is not a "dedicated" rigger, he is a hacker.

What we are arguing about ultimately is how you assign your resources. Without the burden of raising your cracking skills, you can dedicate your Karma to raising other things that can help you rig your drones. With the right equipment and planing you can slow down hackers or be completely immune from them.

The Argument apparently centers around whether you can be dedicated to ONLY RIGGING and continuously succeed... You do not need to build up the Cracking Skill Group to crazy levels... and it is not necessary to have Cybercombat to be efficient if you do not want to (I would take it however) as you can definitely use IC, Agents and Worms for protection. You WILL need the Hacking Skill and EW Skill however as a Rigger, and I am pretty sure that no one will argue that point. Are you telling me that a Single Skill (Cybercombat) is your sole definition seperating a Hacker from a Rigger? Riggers will need Computer and Probably Hardware and Software, so buying that group just saves you a littel Karma over the skills individually, and Data Search is useful in its own right anyway... so that is the TWO Groups that are the defining Groups for a Hacker, of which 5 of those 7 Skills represented are absolutely needed for a Rigger... the only differentiation at this point that I can see is the requirement for Vehicle SKills for the Rigger as well as Gunnery... You can also dedicate some skills to Mechanical Skills, and this is probably a good idea to do so, but with you needing those 5 other skills to be effective, where are you going to skimp? Lets face it, at start, Skills of 2-3 will work well and you will succeed...If you are shooting for the Rating 4-6 skills, well then it is a concept issue rather than a functionality isse in my book...

Yes, you can be either a dedicated Hacker or a Dedicated Rigger by your examples... It is a point of centention whether you can be a GOOD rigger without hacker skills (which are also useful, and even necessary, for Rigging in a lot of cases)... you CAN cover your bases by using a team hacker as your defense, or a Hacker-in-a-box along with IC and some tricks to slow the penetration of a network down so that you may complete your mission... but the latter is not a guarantee in any way.

ECM used for jamming is a good defenese (only works out to about 50 meters or so for general, and 120 meters or so for Directed however), and is used quite often, but you are just as susceptible to this type of attack as the next man (which can force you out of your drone with relative ease if the jamming is powerful enough, turning off your wireless signal only works so well, and using laser or microwave links are very ineffecient for a vehicle that moves and does not present the receiver (WHICH MUST BE IN DIRECT LINE OF SIGHT) towards the transmitter at ALL times... Do that and you will lose your drones... Face it, You will NEVER be IMMUNE to a Hacker or Opposed Rigger

My Contention is that you cannot be a Competent Rigger without having access to hacking skills at least on some level... and your contention that anyone who can do so is a Hacker is erroneous, he is a RIGGER... hackers do not tend to have the specialized skills needed to pilot the various vehicles that the Rigger does... Your skill set and program loadout will tend to differentiate between both categories...

Hacking and Rigging are Mindsets.. you can be both or neither depending upon the mindset of the character being played... I have a character that is neither, he is a communications expert... can he hack, sure, but he is not a Hacker (though he is competent)... Can he Rig... Sure, but he is not a Rigger either (but again, he is competent)... He specializes in communications technology, which is used in both job decriptions...

Your Mileage may vary, but I think that you will find that if you concentrate on specifically RIGGING, you will tend to not be as proficient or efficient as if you had some ability at hacking to complement the rigging skillset. It is really embarrassing for the Rigger to ask the Hacker to hack a backdoor for you so that you can attempt to take over the Drone... Especially when he has his own job to contend with...

I apologize for the Wall of Text... I tend to Ramble a bit when excited... And again, it is probably flavor for me, but you really cannot seperate hacking from Rigging, it is inherent in your job description... But that is just my opinion and you (or others) may not entirely agree with me...

Keep the Faith...

[RunnerPaul]

You do know what comes right after Rigger 4?

The same thing that came after Rigger 3 Revised. Nothing of importance. The curse of the rigger book is a myth.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The same thing that came after Rigger 3 Revised. Nothing of importance. The curse of the rigger book is a myth.

Well Said...

[The Monk]

The Argument apparently centers around whether you can be dedicated to ONLY RIGGING and continuously succeed... You do not need to build up the Cracking Skill Group to crazy levels... and it is not necessary to have Cybercombat to be efficient if you do not want to (I would take it however) as you can definitely use IC, Agents and Worms for protection. You WILL need the Hacking Skill and EW Skill however as a Rigger, and I am pretty sure that no one will argue that point. Are you telling me that a Single Skill (Cybercombat) is your sole definition seperating a Hacker from a Rigger? Riggers will need Computer and Probably Hardware and Software, so buying that group just saves you a littel Karma over the skills individually, and Data Search is useful in its own right anyway... so that is the TWO Groups that are the defining Groups for a Hacker, of which 5 of those 7 Skills represented are absolutely needed for a Rigger... the only differentiation at this point that I can see is the requirement for Vehicle SKills for the Rigger as well as Gunnery... You can also dedicate some skills to Mechanical Skills, and this is probably a good idea to do so, but with you needing those 5 other skills to be effective, where are you going to skimp? Lets face it, at start, Skills of 2-3 will work well and you will succeed...If you are shooting for the Rating 4-6 skills, well then it is a concept issue rather than a functionality isse in my book...

If all you want to do is rig vehicles, and you are not interested in hacking other vehicles, why do you need any of the cracking skills?

A rigger with a souped up horseman, some dobermans, and fly-spys all connected with laser and microwave links is just as viable a character as the gun-bunny. He can go anywhere the troll can go, and he can unplug himself from all of that and be a regular Joe without cyberware that will raise eyebrows.

He can be a dedicated gear-head, just like the previous editions, without having to also be the quasi-hacker. In fact the more I think of it, the more I like the concept. He'll need Mechanic Skills, tools, workshop, maybe the electronic skills at low levels (but even this is not necessary).

He doesn't need the cracking skills or a souped up commlink with all the goodies, just an impact wrench, grease, and a lot of bullets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If all you want to do is rig vehicles, and you are not interested in hacking other vehicles, why do you need any of the cracking skills?

A rigger with a souped up horseman, some dobermans, and fly-spys all connected with laser and microwave links is just as viable a character as the gun-bunny. He can go anywhere the troll can go, and he can unplug himself from all of that and be a regular Joe without cyberware that will raise eyebrows.

He can be a dedicated gear-head, just like the previous editions, without having to also be the quasi-hacker. In fact the more I think of it, the more I like the concept. He'll need Mechanic Skills, tools, workshop, maybe the electronic skills at low levels (but even this is not necessary).

He doesn't need the cracking skills or a souped up commlink with all the goodies, just an impact wrench, grease, and a lot of bullets.

Maybe.... But I would contend that your drones controlled by Laser and Microwave links are not going to be useable if they move... at all... Laser and Microwave links are grreat for stationary linkages, but when movement is a concern, you will need to be wireless if you want to control tham at all... OR you could issue commands at initiation, and then shut down your Wireless... but at that point, you are not controlling the drones, their pilot program is, and you will be unable to intercede when you need to make adjustments, because adjustments are always necessary in a dynamic environment...

Other than that, if you are going to hardwire yourself into a vehicle, sure, you will be useable as the getaway man, or some such, but that is a limited view of what a Rigger truly is...

Doable, but why would you want to limit yourself that way?

Anyhow, it is all good as we all do what is fun, and if that is fun for you, then Go For It...

Keep the Faith

[The Monk]

Maybe.... But I would contend that your drones controlled by Laser and Microwave links are not going to be useable if they move... at all... Laser and Microwave links are grreat for stationary linkages, but when movement is a concern, you will need to be wireless if you want to control tham at all...

Whoa, forgot about that part, hmmm...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Whoa, forgot about that part, hmmm...

Instead of Laser/Microwave Links, I would use a Non-Standard Wireless Link... it is harder to detect, so it may give you a small edge there...

[Telion]

I'd make the comment that if your a vehicle rigger, you don't need any hacking skills really. If you have a few drones probably not necessary but its helpful. The more drones you get, the more important I can see it. But if your plan is just to jump into a drone, I think your set without the hacking skills.