Tips for 1st Time Players & GM., Help a newbie! Options

[Jackalope]

Howdy all,

I just was lucky enough to score nearly every book for 3rd edition and my small group (just me and 2 other guys) will be starting a 3rd edition campaign. We've played D&D on and off now for 15 years and I've always been the DM, so I really want a different experience and Shadowrun seemed like a great choice.

Do you guys have any tips or advice for a first time GM and his 2 players?

Thanks in advance.

[McCummhail]

1) Go to a spa for deep cleansing as I hear that D&D does things to you.

2) Get the players together and make characters together while watching some cyberpunk or near-future scifi films.

3) Be flexible. SR is a whole new beast.

[SincereAgape]

Three players. That is fantastic. Just roll with it.

If you have the third edition book "First Run"

I suggest starting with that module.

[Fezig]

1 - Since you only have two players, encourage them to have a lot of range in their abilities. The more different types of runs you can do, the more fun and lasting the campaign will be. That being said, feel free to use NPC contact characters to fill in the gaps. Let them meet a hacker who can assist them over the matrix on runs, or a mage who may be able to loan them a spirit. Ofc....this is shadowrun, so there is a fee for all of it. That fee can be a favor (run made for no additional pay), or just raw cred.

2 - I was also a DM prior to being a SR GM, and one major difference is that your planning pays off MUCH more in SR. In SR you need to plan the entire compound, all the security, etc. Also remember though, your planning can easily be shot all to hell when you players get ahold of your run. Know your security protocol and have logical security contingencies. You set up a maze, they have to run through it by any means they can find.

3 - Stick n Shock is nasty. Not all guards should have it, so give them gel rounds early on or you will get a TPK if they slip up. Just want to say sorry to that group of runners...it didn't seem quite so deadly when I read it the first time...

[Jackalope]

Thanks for the quick responses!

I do have first run and figured that would be a good place to start. So I will definatly work from there.

I am lucky that these guys aren't really "power gamers" they aren't min/maxers more often they just like to come up with a concept and really roll with it.

Since neither of them know a thing about SR I am telling them to re-watch Blade Runner and work from there.

I will also be starting them with a third character that I'll be playing along side them as a NPC just to help them in touch spots and flesh out the team a bit more with a permanent member (well as permanent as characters get in SR).

I would like one of them to branch out as either a Rigger/Decker. Do you guys know which would be more fun to play for a first time player?

[Fezig]

I personally feel that there is a ton of rules baggage that goes into being a good/effective rigger, and thus they can really overwhelm a new player. You may also find having a true hacker opens more windows into different types of runs. Also, for a two player team, running a mage/face and hacker/gunner combo actually works quite well as a way to broaden them out while still maintaining effectiveness.

All that being said though, ask your players which one grabs them more and that is the one to go with.

[deek]

I would like one of them to branch out as either a Rigger/Decker. Do you guys know which would be more fun to play for a first time player?

I would think a Rigger would be more fun to play and be more entertaining for the other player at the table. Unless both of them are deckers, you may have to really work on planning special time in the spotlight for both players.

Don't forget to have them watch Johnny Mnemonic. IMO, nothing screams Shadowrun more than that movie!

[Jackalope]

Johnny Mnemonic would have been great if not for Keanu...

I'll have no problem tailoring events/jobs for them. Since D&D assumes you have a full party of 5 people I've had to modify everything for them for years so they don't get crushed by the pre-made dungeons.

Anything I should strictly stay away from?

[Tricen]

My suggestion is to put them up against "low-time" opposition to start with. Gangers, small courier runs, things they can handle without having to face trained guards. Low-timers will run should they get shot, not necessarily true with corp men. The more resources the opponents have, the worse it is for the PCs. Street thugs with some hand guns? No big deal. Mafia with SMGs and wired-reflexes? That's a problem.

Finally, don't throw many opponents at them. Shadowrun isn't like D&D in that you have a fight that lasts a couple of hours and everything is even. Either one side will have the advantage in a hurry or the other. Fights tend to tilt quick. Ideally, you want the PCs to get the advantage if they are smart and loose it if they are morons.

[Jackalope]

My suggestion is to put them up against "low-time" opposition to start with. Gangers, small courier runs, things they can handle without having to face trained guards. Low-timers will run should they get shot, not necessarily true with corp men. The more resources the opponents have, the worse it is for the PCs. Street thugs with some hand guns? No big deal. Mafia with SMGs and wired-reflexes? That's a problem.

Finally, don't throw many opponents at them. Shadowrun isn't like D&D in that you have a fight that lasts a couple of hours and everything is even. Either one side will have the advantage in a hurry or the other. Fights tend to tilt quick. Ideally, you want the PCs to get the advantage if they are smart and loose it if they are morons.

Alright, that makes a lot of sense. And it lets them feel a sense of build up and accomplishment as they work up the food chain from local gang-bangers to the corporate big wigs. I can see that working out real well.

In an average session how many "fights" would you normally see. I know for D&D if was usually around 3-4 depending on the setting. But that seems it would be a bit much for Shadowrun. Also it seems escape is more an option in Shadowrun that D&D where you don't leave until everything is dead and looted.

[Tricen]

This is the BIG change from D&D: You expect maybe one fight and a few blowouts. In D&D, the goal is to reach the objective by means of strength. In ShadowRun, the goal is to complete the objective as quickly and QUIETLY as possible. If you get into lots of big fire fights, people will hear about you. You'll make enemies, and most importantly, your cover is blown. A runners most prized possession is that NO ONE KNOWS HE EXISTS!

Instead of "You're in a room full of rust monsters. Roll initiative." you should plan shadowrun like it is one big D&D trap. "You come upon a locked door. You have no idea what's in the next room." Newbs will bust the door down and probably die to the defenses. Experienced players will find a matrix access point to view the cameras in the room/astral project to check the room/scan the room with sonar/etc. and find a way to bypass defenses.

Shadowrun is deadly. If your group likes to destroy all in their path (a la D&D) then put a lot of single guards in their way. It's not gonna be much of a fight. If you put more, it's likly that the tides will turn against them in a hurry

[PatB]

My suggestion is to put them up against "low-time" opposition to start with. Gangers, small courier runs, things they can handle without having to face trained guards. Low-timers will run should they get shot, not necessarily true with corp men. The more resources the opponents have, the worse it is for the PCs. Street thugs with some hand guns? No big deal. Mafia with SMGs and wired-reflexes? That's a problem.

Finally, don't throw many opponents at them. Shadowrun isn't like D&D in that you have a fight that lasts a couple of hours and everything is even. Either one side will have the advantage in a hurry or the other. Fights tend to tilt quick. Ideally, you want the PCs to get the advantage if they are smart and loose it if they are morons.

Just to emphasize on this point,
- In D&D, you get experience for killing things
- In SR, you get karma for completing objectives (amongst other things), but nothing for killing things.

What I'm trying to say is that your runners could complete the same job by killing every one or by finding ways to bypass the meat opposition.

[Jackalope]

So more or less fighting is when something goes wrong or there is no alternative. Which is a very welcome change. I think they'll really enjoy once I can wrap their head's around the idea that they don't need to kill everything in order to get the job done. Once they are thinking in that frame of mind it should be a real hoot.

So what race/"class" combination do you all enjoy playing? It seems the system is very flexible as to allow you to play hybrids of all the core classes fairly easily.

[X-Kalibur]

The opportunity for combat is rampant in SR. The trick is knowing how to avoid it as much as possible. But when the shit hits the fan, pull out the biggest guns and make sure your side is the only one left standing.

[Tricen]

I'm a huge fan of face/Magician, myself. Gives you a social expert and a Swiss army knife in one.

[Screaming Eagle]

Awards are very different as mentioned.
No more EXP for monster kills - You botch the mission but kill every on on site? One karma for survival. Probably one more for opposition.
You complete the mission, rob the place blind to boot and are unseen save by one guard you knock out with a particulaly zippy on liner? the first 2 + 1 for the bonus robbery + 1 for the mission completion + 1 for making everyone stop playing from laughter.
I tend to further award "Doing the right thing" - have "secondary objectives" written in that in fact have nothing to do with the mission - an orcish child is captive in the medical testing lab, obviously an unhappy subject, AWARD them a Karma if they throw the mission to save the kid but award them 1 more if the manage to take a screaming child though their Run and succeed without doing anything to endanger the child futher.
OR
My fav:
Have secondary objectives that are in fact VILE - but not presented as such, the team need to do reaserch and find these things out (what do you mean that address is an orphnage? How much are we getting payed to set in on fire on the way out? No, not enough.) and in this case make them choose between the Money and the Karma
I find this to be a better way the the "Cash for Karma" systems as they are making the choise each and every run.

Don't hesitate to off them if they are being blatantly dumb. This was one of my early mistakes.
To your players - Don't be blatantly dumb, you don't have HP or BAB anymore, armor doesn't stop attacks from hurting but it might stop you from dying and any ganger can get lucky on your bad day and KILL YOUR BUTT DEAD

[Tricen]

...any ganger can get lucky on your bad day and KILL YOUR BUTT DEAD

Here here! ^_^

[Jackalope]

Very interesting ideas all around. I like the reward system of karma far more than XP, as it seems to give more value to Role Playing rather than hack and slashing your way to victory. I can see why you need to have the mission much more flesh out than your average D&D dungeon crawl.

How often to PC's die in a game? In D&D it's not all that frequent unless you botch one of the life-or-death saving throws. Is there insta-kill situations in Shadowrun that PC's just have no chance to survive?

[Paul]

There is no right or wrong Shadowrun. Do what you, and your group finds fun, and exciting. 3rd Edition had lots of support-both fan based (Web sites, character generators, and character sheets) and officially supported stuff. (Well, there was before fourth edition anyways!)

There's a lot of flexibility in the game if you don't get bogged down in the rules. Personally we have a rule at the table, any rule discussion, debate or question is limited to 45 seconds or less. Then I rule on it, right or wrong and we debate it after the game is over.

[Tricen]

How often to PC's die in a game? In D&D it's not all that frequent unless you botch one of the life-or-death saving throws. Is there insta-kill situations in Shadowrun that PC's just have no chance to survive?

Depends on your group's personal tastes. In MY group death is pretty rare. I know in most other games death is mildly frequent. It is a powerful tool for a GM to use to "adjust" a player's more psychotic tendencies.

[Screaming Eagle]

Death rate is personal - I've lowered mine of late as I've been running campaign styled games rather then one off missions (the difference between a crime action T.V Series and an Action movie) but have played with GM who had never offed anyone, and one who averaged about 1/3 of the party killed per mission - near or total PK about one in 6 and fairly frequent casualties.

By default it is ALOT more leathal than D&D. Seriously. Some random ganger with a taser and a good roll can WRECK your gunslinger adept regardless. You will NOT get much tougher as you gain Karma either. Better at dodging sure, but if you get shot, you are still just a guy with organs, not a frankly comidic 15th lvl fighter ignoring the first 30 sword blows he take on any given day. The bigger opposition is not about the character able to take this extra damage - it is about their increased ability to aviod the confontation or to get the jump on the opposition effectivally.

I haven't killed a PC in Shadowrun in some time. I have a good player base that make good choises and have prepared emergency plans for "we're boned!" once I've got them past the initial shake down - hospitalised them for months yes, dead no. Edge works wonders for the PC attached to theri character.

[Paul]

In my own games death and massive wounding is pretty common place, but rarely permanent.

[nezumi]

As a first time GM, I would recommend you start out only with straight-up, mundane combat rules. Combat, magic, decking and rigging each have their own rulesets, and if you're trying to memorize all four simultaneously, you may have a tough time. Tackling them one at a time helps. Run some one-shots with normal, physical combat 'til you get your head wrapped around it, if it seems at all complicated. Then wrap in magic, then rigging or decking (rigging and decking are the most complex to handle, and the easiest to skip). Be aware that the decker may be sort of 'on his own' for his part, which may get to be boring. Some GMs skip decking altogether and hand it off to an NPC because of that, so unless someone has a specific interest in it, don't be afraid to do the same (or make both players deckers).

The scripted adventures are generally good to excellent, and help take a lot of the pressure off. First Run is definitely not the best of them, but it's not bad either.

The template characters in the middle of the book are pretty miserable. Use them for NPCs or one-shots, but for a full campaign, they're pretty bad.

ANd of course, don't be afraid to stick to the main book. I've run a campaign for a few years now just on the main book.

[Wounded Ronin]

Howdy all,

I just was lucky enough to score nearly every book for 3rd edition and my small group (just me and 2 other guys) will be starting a 3rd edition campaign. We've played D&D on and off now for 15 years and I've always been the DM, so I really want a different experience and Shadowrun seemed like a great choice.

Do you guys have any tips or advice for a first time GM and his 2 players?

Thanks in advance.

I'd advise as a GM to be organized. Have all your maps and note sheets ready in advance. SR3 can have a lot of book keeping and being organized makes everything faster and more smooth and more correct. In fact, you might consider not having deckers or riggers the first time round just to let you have less rules to deal with. You can always introduce them in a few games...chargen in SR3 isn't that hard if you don't want to make it complicated.

Did you ever play the old Rainbow Six games, when it was all about planning because it was very easy to be shot and killed and you couldn't just engage large groups of enemies hoping to shoot them all faster than they could shoot you?

SR3 is kind of like that because in general it's easy to be killed especially with the way they revised initiative from 2nd edition. Rather than making large battles where you expect the PCs to defeat large groups of enemies in open battle let them plan and set things up so that they try and shoot all the bad guys according to a plan where they try to incapacitate everyone immediately. Just like the old Rainbow Six games. In my personal experience a lot of times when my friends would get into SR for the first time the GM would accidentally TPK the player characters by overestimating the number of bad guys the players could fight successfully.

[Jackalope]

As a first time GM, I would recommend you start out only with straight-up, mundane combat rules. Combat, magic, decking and rigging each have their own rulesets, and if you're trying to memorize all four simultaneously, you may have a tough time. Tackling them one at a time helps. Run some one-shots with normal, physical combat 'til you get your head wrapped around it, if it seems at all complicated. Then wrap in magic, then rigging or decking (rigging and decking are the most complex to handle, and the easiest to skip). Be aware that the decker may be sort of 'on his own' for his part, which may get to be boring. Some GMs skip decking altogether and hand it off to an NPC because of that, so unless someone has a specific interest in it, don't be afraid to do the same (or make both players deckers).

The scripted adventures are generally good to excellent, and help take a lot of the pressure off. First Run is definitely not the best of them, but it's not bad either.

The template characters in the middle of the book are pretty miserable. Use them for NPCs or one-shots, but for a full campaign, they're pretty bad.

ANd of course, don't be afraid to stick to the main book. I've run a campaign for a few years now just on the main book.

That's really sound advice, Perhaps I'll just go with physical and magic if either of them plays an awakened character. I could certainly run my NPC as a decker and though him explain what it is they do, see if it sparks interest in one or both of them.


Now you said First Run isn't so hot, is there one you would recommend or should I just cook up something simple to show them what it's all about?