[X] My Assistant

[Blade]

No, they just make the acceptance of certain "medi-chines" injected into your bloodstream mandatory in the employment contract. These medi-chines keep you fit and productive, eliminating the need for wasteful exercise periods.

Okay, I know that's a little further out than the canon SR tech level, but they'd do it, wouldn't they?

I've been told that gymnastic was one of the tool for the creation of national identity in some countries (such as Danemark). So I'm not sure that the ideas behind physical exercises are just to have fit employees (even if that's already a good thing for the corp).

[AK404]

It's not. Group exercises are just that: group exercises. It's meant to cut down on individuality and competitiveness and foster a collective identity. I'm not sure you've ever seen one of those in action, but everyone moves at the same pace (or at least, they're supposed to); if you move too fast, you look impatient to everyone else and thus slow yourself down, if you move too slow, you're holding everyone back and thus try to catch up.

And to the OP, the problems that you've listed...they're happening now. There've been numerous books (those things that are in bookstores, somewhere behind the tons and tons of DVDs, music CDs, audiobooks, and e-readers) written on the subject of what modern multimedia is doing to our thinking processes, attention spans, and values. For starters, go pick up "The Dumbest Generation" or maybe "The Age of American Unreason."

[Ravor]

As it has been pointed out, the corps don't really want a happy and healthy workforce using their wireless 'links to work while seeing the world, they want a depressed, downtroddened, and fairly sickly workforce that they can grossly over charge for third world style medical care and who more importantly, are simply too numb to get ideas about changing the world.

Remember, although the corps love profits, they are willing to run in the red for the one thing that they love even more, control.

[Kumo]

As it has been pointed out, the corps don't really want a happy and healthy workforce using their wireless 'links to work while seeing the world, they want a depressed, downtroddened, and fairly sickly workforce that they can grossly over charge for third world style medical care and who more importantly, are simply too numb to get ideas about changing the world.

Yes and no.

Yes - in case of phisical laborers. No need to make them happy; they are expendable. But some corps could think that increasing loyality of "little troll workers" may be profitable, and give them a bit better terms than competition.
Of course, phisical laborers don't need additional exercises.

Not at all - if we mean white-collars. If they are depressed, their effectivness goes down. So a bit better working terms, medical care etc. are profitable. And stress will be directed in a profitable way (read: rat race).

Without phisical activeness, people are less concentrated, more depressed and more often ill. Corps want good, concentrated and sharp-minded workers to make good programs, good marketing, good PR etc. Group exercises are relatively cheap - why not?

[Ravor]

I disagree, because although they would like to be able to have healthy and happy workers for the reasons you gave the reasons that they don't want healthy and happy workers outweighs the benefits.

Tis Cyberpunk, "quality" no longer exists except at the extreme top end, and not always there either.

[Kumo]

Well, it depends what kind of game style You prefer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .
I think corps will do at least some things for wage slaves. I mean security (two dozen cops can watch a whole neighborhood), medical care (they don't need full-blown clinic; just something better than public hospital), school for their children (read: investment in future wage slaves). If corps would tread employees like a trash, and then one corp would give them a bit better terms... zombies from other corps would blow up own firms from inside, just to get a job in the "good" corporation.
That's a trick: corps give wage slaves relatively cheap necessities and comforts, and in exchange has a bit of loyality. Workers feel and see that corporation "cares" for them, and are less willing to escape, spying for competition, help runners... Of course all this "goods" are as cheap as possible. And more important workers get better terms. All this is a part of indoctrination process.

Back to the gym problem: I don't think it would be really hard or expensive to make many of wage slaves do some exercises. Only building some sports fields and gym rooms in enclaves and arcologies would be a major cost. But AR gym instructors? Sport guides in public library? Martial arts teachers (AR or flesh)? No problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Back to the gym problem: I don't think it would be really hard or expensive to make many of wage slaves do some exercises. Only building some sports fields and gym rooms in enclaves and arcologies would be a major cost. But AR gym instructors? Sport guides in public library? Martial arts teachers (AR or flesh)? No problem.

Just look at the Popularity of the Wii Gaming Console today... Wii Fitness anyone?

[hobgoblin]

link it into the office network, and have a "best of" after some period...

just look at all the "reality" shows about loosing weight and so on...

[Knight Saber]

Just look at the Popularity of the Wii Gaming Console today... Wii Fitness anyone?

They've gone the Wii one better in Shadowrun... you play Killing Floor by running around outside. You have to meet and interact with strangers if you want to win.

[Tachi]

They've gone the Wii one better in Shadowrun... you play Killing Floor by running around outside. You have to meet and interact with strangers if you want to win.

Hehe. Wasn't there something about a bunch of 'Miracle Shooter' AR players getting killed because they jumped in front of moving vehicles and off of roofs while dodging imaginary fire?

Where was that?

[hobgoblin]

Hehe. Wasn't there something about a bunch of 'Miracle Shooter' AR players getting killed because they jumped in front of moving vehicles and off of roofs while dodging imaginary fire?

Where was that?

SR4, under gear, specifically AR software...

[Kumo]

There are also corp-owned professional sport teams promoting sport, probably soccer/baseball/basketball/other teams for children (in corp-owned schools) - OK, I don't believe in children Urban Brawl teams... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And sport mean also demand for equipment, clothing, nutrients... "So, most our workers can't buy regular cosmetic surgery, muscle replacement or juwenalization... but we can sell them Muscle Power-Builder™ powder, dumb-bells, steppers, Urban Explorer Jumpsuits, and still get back a bit of their wage! And we give them sense of co-working (group exercises), upgrade sense of corporate "tradition" (healthy, strong Americans in Ares; tradition of martial arts in japanacorps). And this way we bound them with corporation even MORE.

[hobgoblin]

heh, this whole thread reminds me of how wacky the economics thinking of SR must be...

[Semerkhet]

heh, this whole thread reminds me of how wacky the economics thinking of SR must be...

Which is why I hand-wave away the most extreme corporate dystopia from my version of the SR world. The corporations are going to do whatever increases shareholder value. If that means keeping your knowledge workers happy enough to be creative, then that's just part of the cost of doing business and maintaining an edge over your rivals. This doesn't mean the corporations are altruistic, it just means that the shareholders' best interests will sometimes line up with treating the employees decently. In situations where the workers can be productive without being happy, i.e. simple repetitive assembly tasks, then I am totally on board with the employees being treated little better than animals. All depends on the situation, IMO.

[hobgoblin]

well the thing is that i have a hard time finding out how the corps are making a profit, unless there is a large percentage of independently wealthy sinners that we never hear about.

their workers are going to be payed/given as much as they need to survive, unless they are seen as highly important to maintaining the corp edge, but that will be a zero sum game.

so who is buying the goods and services that brings in the profits?

[Ravor]

Because the "corps" aren't really companies in the modern sense, they are more akin to fedual kingdoms of the Dark Ages.

[hobgoblin]

a economic aristocracy? i guess it could make sense...

especially if each AAA corp runs its own bank(s), with a bit of lending from the big bank in the sky...

[Semerkhet]

Because the "corps" aren't really companies in the modern sense, they are more akin to fedual kingdoms of the Dark Ages.

That's a pretty sweeping statement. Are there no markets? Are there no shareholders? Do they not provide goods and services in exchange for currency?

Could you please elaborate?

[Ravor]

The answer to your question is yes, but in name only. The markets are designed by the corps, for the corps, the only "real" shareholders are amongst the ultra rich, and the services and goods are usually low end crap akin to the cheap plastic toys you can get out of vending manchines today.

All in all, tis the Dark Ages all over again with a new coat of paint, and even that paint is faded and falling off in ragged chucks.

[Semerkhet]

The answer to your question is yes, but in name only. The markets are designed by the corps, for the corps, the only "real" shareholders are amongst the ultra rich, and the services and goods are usually low end crap akin to the cheap plastic toys you can get out of vending manchines today.

All in all, tis the Dark Ages all over again with a new coat of paint, and even that paint is faded and falling off in ragged chucks.

Are you are saying that the Shadowrun world is governed by a totalitarian communist-style planned economy? If the markets are "designed" then they are planned. This would seem to imply that the AAA's are all in cahoots in designing the market. If that's true, why are they hiring shadowrunners to steal/sabotage/etc. their rivals' latest product/research/etc.? If there is no real capitalist market with consumers that have choice, why are people inundated with AR advertisements for the latest and greatest products?

Everything that follows has a large YMMV sign posted on it:

I like to picture my SR dystopia as plutocracy and laissez-faire capitalism taken to an extreme. The system is rigged, but it's essentially an extremely corrupt form of capitalism rather than a totalitarian corporate state. I find trends in our current economic system scary enough that I all I have to do is project them forward in an exaggerated (I hope) manner and *poof* , instant dystopia.

As a side note on the "cheap plastic toys" theory of Shadowrun consumer goods. Over the last twenty years the standard of living for the lower two quartiles in the U.S. has climbed even as the gap between the ultra-wealthy and everyone else has soared. The advent of cheaply made consumer goods has meant that low income families can afford things that would have been considered luxuries forty years ago. Now project that trend forward into the Shadowrun timeline where you've got another several decades worth of technological advancement in materials science, fabrication methods and product design. For next to nothing, corporations can provide their employees with consumer goods and entertainment options that would seem, to us, like magical luxuries. The dystopia here isn't that life is *materially* bleak for everyone or that they're all living in Orwell's 1984. That's too obvious. The tragedy and dystopia is that the bulk of the population is so comfortable and mesmerized by entertainment that they don't pay any attention to the significant minority of the population whose lives really are materially bleak (the sinless population in the Barrens, etc.) and the tiny slice of the fabulously wealthy who are the primary beneficiaries of the system.

Edit: Which, upon reflection, ties back into the OP since what I'm describing as my pictured dystopia has all the elements the OP was worried about. So to the OP I say, "Don't worry, embrace the dystopia."

[Ravor]

Don't have much time, but my quick off the cuff reply is no the corps aren't communist, there're fedual. And the only thing that they are "in cahoots" over is maknig sure that the "little guy" has not chance in hell of ever getting out from under their thumb. On everything else they are in a neverending cold war over, hence the need for Shadowrunners.


And remember, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk in general are children of the Eighties, so Eighties style dystopia is what should be the default.

[Penta]

....Which raises the excellent question of "How many current Shadowrun players were even out of kindergarten by 1989?"

[Semerkhet]

Don't have much time, but my quick off the cuff reply is no the corps aren't communist, there're fedual. And the only thing that they are "in cahoots" over is maknig sure that the "little guy" has not chance in hell of ever getting out from under their thumb. On everything else they are in a neverending cold war over, hence the need for Shadowrunners.

I hesitate to go all Wiki on you, but: The social and economic system which characterized most European societies in the Middle Ages goes by the name of feudalism. The system, in its most basic essence, is the granting of land in return for military service.

I think you are using the "static social structure" that you see in both feudalism and SR society and using that one similarity to label SR's global economic system as "feudal." Maybe what you're looking for is Corporatocracy or Oligarchy. Feudalism doesn't seem like a good label to describe the economics of SR.

And remember, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk in general are children of the Eighties, so Eighties style dystopia is what should be the default.

Totally IMO, previous editions of SR were children of the Eighties, as am I. However, one of the things I like best about SR4 is that it lets the setting shed some of those dated trappings and project forward from a more contemporary viewpoint. Now, if a big part of the draw for you is the 80's style dystopia then I'm not going to tell you to change your vision.

[Semerkhet]

....Which raises the excellent question of "How many current Shadowrun players were even out of kindergarten by 1989?"

I graduated from high school in 1989. I think the posters on DS skew older, but I have no idea what the mean age of SR players is.

[CanadianWolverin...]

I don't know if this will help any as I am a newcomer to SR (I only have the 4 and 4A books) but I graduated in 2001.

As far as the economics of SR4A 2072 go, I see it a lot like the world of today only the "free" market has been allowed to run wild, you know, sorta like the latest depression. Say, wasn't there a dip in the market in the 70s/80s after a bunch of deregulation too? Rich get richer, poor get poorer, regulation of the system goes bye-bye, crashes become more and more frequent but periods of insane profits happen too and so on and so on. The biggest things in SR verse that seems to have not contributed to social-economic change appears to be resource shortages and climate change, which between the VITAS reducing world population significantly and magic restoring some of nature's dominance on climate change seem to be what prevented those end/change games. SR even screwed with religious dogma dominance too, didn't it? SRs wars probably contributed too.

I kinda see it like the world has had its economic complete collapse clock reset back to the days of just when the Train Barons started to get going, only now those lines go completely around the World. say in a Wide Web. The world balkanized but not at the same time.