A vignette, Not actually Shadowrun, but it could've fooled me. Options

[Dikotana]

Streetmodz

"It was the next step up from the tungsten knuckle reinforcements she’d been looking at, a total arm rebuild that would replace flesh and bone with nanocarbon alloys and memory plastics– a near human approximation of an arm with a central cavity that was packed tight with the razor-edges of a collapsible, spring-loaded blade."

[eidolon]

That's awesome.

[d1ng0d0g]

Awesome little story, as it voices my problem with most cyberware from a role playing perspective perfectly.

[Krypter]

Yeah, cyberware ain't what it's cracked up to be by the cyberpunk crowd. I'd never get any installed and I suspect most people, even criminals, wouldn't either.

[LurkerOutThere]

Meh, i've always felt this was one thing that shadowrun captured poorly and has actually gotten worse of.

If people got the ability to replace their limbs and bodies with stronger, faster, less prone to break down, in other words better "prosthetic" tomorrow thousands would do so. If i had the opportunity to replace the crushed L1, L2, L3 disks in my spice with a move by wire system I'd do it without question. People have always strived to be better, I don't know why theres some magic stigma that folks apply. I haven't heard of anyone turning down a pacemaker because it wasn't "part of them", athletes are caught with steroids all the time. Both of these are performance enhancers.

By 2072 it just seems to me that Cyberware should be common as all hell, it's stigma all but gone and if anythign it should be extremely run of the mill and popular. Instead we have bioware which has all the frailties of human flesh yet is somehow the prefered method because it has less "essence cost" a factor that 99.9% of the population shouldn't give two shakes because their not magically active.

/rant off

[Dikotana]

Maybe. But evolution has had a long time to make us run right. Sure, we fall apart if subjected to extreme stresses or impacts, and our warranty is definitely up after a little over half a century, but we're pretty durable. Now let's think about cars. Let's approximate the mass-produced automobile as one hundred years old. That's older than cyberware by the 2070's. How long do cars last? Even without accidents, how often do they pick up odd ticks and glitches? And that's ignoring software, which is never, ever bug-free.

No one turns down a pacemaker (well, some people do, but that's a lunatic fringe)—but nobody chooses to get one if it's not necessary. Fine; pacemakers aren't an enhancement, they're a last-ditch repair. Steroids aren't a good comparison either, though; they aren't replacement. I think the question remains: even if you could get a stronger and tougher arm, would you let a doctor amputate your arm to attach it? How much do you need a super-arm anyway? And how worried would you be about the consequences five years down the road? Or ten? Or fifty? And keep in mind the surgery. Doctors are scary. Amputation is not comfortable. Why do it if you don't have to?

Cyberware additions make sense in Shadowrun. Everyone would love to add more abilities to themselves. But replacing functional parts with artificial bits? That's for the extreme neophiles and those who absolutely need the best tech. The man on the street doesn't need or want cyberarms. Anything that gives better AR, maybe, if trodes and gloves and goggles can't do it. But major surgical trauma for upgrades? No, I don't think so.

[Ranneko]

On the other hand if you don't have a perfectly good arm/leg/spine/eye you might replace it.

I'd be pretty tempted to get cybereyes were they available, I'm reasonably short sighted but as long as it all takes place with me unconcious then I'd probably do it, and pay for the extra features because that is the kind of person I am.

[Khyron]

I'd say cyberware would go with the job you work. Middle Management Bob wouldn't run off and get move by wire or dermal sheaths or god forbid retractable spurs for the hell of it. The mundane guy who works security might. The corps may even pay higher wages to a guard they know can take a few bullets and moves twice as fast, or even offer a discount for ware surgery. Runners and gangers have dangerous lives and they need to stay prepared, hence why you'd find more wared out people in that line of work.

[caul]

I think this is a great story, that without meaning to (unless the writer is familiar with Shadowrun) depicts a crucial fork in the path for a young urban kid. Do I go with the illegal, diminishing, ware and basically slot myself out of the normal stream of society (thus becoming by default and choice SINless and probably a runner), or do I try to keep going with the flow and look for something better (or worse) inside the system?

Great work.

[LurkerOutThere]

Maybe. But evolution has had a long time to make us run right. Sure, we fall apart if subjected to extreme stresses or impacts, and our warranty is definitely up after a little over half a century, but we're pretty durable. Now let's think about cars. Let's approximate the mass-produced automobile as one hundred years old. That's older than cyberware by the 2070's. How long do cars last? Even without accidents, how often do they pick up odd ticks and glitches? And that's ignoring software, which is never, ever bug-free.

I'm not sure if your analogy holds up. With maintenance a car can easily hold up a hundred years or more. It depends on materials and construction and also amount of wear and tear. But even the most gently ridden of cars is subject to hundreds if not thousands of times more abuse then a human arm is on it's component parts. But theirs no reason to believe that given even the most hectic of shadowrunners life baring direct trama a cyberarm couldn't far outlast it's flesh equivalent. Furthermore few peoples bodies who make it to even the half century mark are in any kind of active shape. Cyberware wouldn't have that problem unless the manufacturers are building it like a KIA, to have only a ten year service life, and most people arn't going to buy that model. Because as you said, this is a replacement. It is invasive yes, but so are many medical procedures some of them even quite voluntary.

I think the question remains: even if you could get a stronger and tougher arm, would you let a doctor amputate your arm to attach it? How much do you need a super-arm anyway? And how worried would you be about the consequences five years down the road? Or ten? Or fifty? And keep in mind the surgery. Doctors are scary. Amputation is not comfortable. Why do it if you don't have to?

By 2072 cyberware has been in use for nearly 50 years, the long term consequences have been established as well as say birth control pills are currently. So no i wouldn't be too concerned about consquences. Furthermore your implication is that i'll be frightened because something might happen to my cyberarm when i know for a fact that within 20-30 years (basing on my self as a late 20's human) my regular arm is going to have a host or problems. Hell it already does my arms cant haul the rest of my fat body through pushups liek they used to. Why would i or anyone else have this completely unfounded attachment to their meat bits. One need only look at our culture to see how utterly unsatisfied people are with their bodies and capabilities, cyberware and other advanced medical techniques gives a no fuss solution to that. Do you really think in a world of boob jobs, steroids, concealed carry permits, and just our eternal, and some would argue hardwired, determination to be prettier, faster, and stronger that people wouldn't jump at the chance to have those things.

Cyberware additions make sense in Shadowrun. Everyone would love to add more abilities to themselves. But replacing functional parts with artificial bits? That's for the extreme neophiles and those who absolutely need the best tech. The man on the street doesn't need or want cyberarms. Anything that gives better AR, maybe, if trodes and gloves and goggles can't do it. But major surgical trauma for upgrades? No, I don't think so.

I guess we have different beliefs on what the man on the street wants, people are cosntantly comparing themselves to others in their peer group. Cyber augmentation would be the nuclear weapons of evolutions arms race, something I dont' think shadowrun has captured properly in their quest to make everything balanced against magic at character generation (which is bull by the way but that's something for another thread).

[Apathy]

I think many of us are more comfortable with the idea of 'enhancements' of our existing parts than we would be with removing and replacing those parts. So, bone density, enhanced articulation, muscle toner, cerebral booster are great. But I'm unlikely to ask them to chop off my wang and stick a Mr Stud in its place anytime soon. Over the years I've grown rather fond of the one I've got.

Also, for most of us physical stats aren't as important as mental ones. What in the world would I need a Strength 6 arm for, anyway? I work on a computer terminal all day.

And I think I'll look a bit freaky years from now when the rest of my body has gotten old and wrinkly, but my arm sill looks like it belongs on a 20-year old. I'll probably be able to get a new sleeve for it, but I'll still have that weird 'professional bowler' look, with one arm twice the size of the other.

[Ravor]

Meh, I'd kill for the chance to go full replacement on my left leg.

As for a Mr Stud, well, you'd have to convince me that there would be NO change in how sex felt and I'm not quite sure how I'd ever trust that to be true... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

*EDIT*

I'd love cybereyes/ears though, never have to worry about weldingflash/staring into the sun or deafness from shooting ever again... But I'd need alittle "extra" such as being able to see in the dark for the eyes...

[Ranneko]

I think that as prosthetics/cyber became better, the bar for people to get them would get lower until eventually you might have people without any problem at all getting replacements. But certainly long before that you would have people getting new hands because they broke their originals, or because they have really bad arthritis, etc.

[Dikotana]

Your body is a wonderful nano-hive for repairing things, including your arms. Replace those with metal and plastic and sure, you have something more durable. But for decades? Only with good maintenance, as you said about cars. But do you want to have to regularly run maintenance on your arms? I sure don't.

Breast implants make me reconsider, though. That isn't quite like losing an arm, but there are clearly already those willing to go through unpleasant elective surgery for cosmetic reasons. Being able to see in the dark and lift weights like an Olympian wouldn't be for everyone, but it probably would be for a handy few. Actually, though, I wonder how the bodybuilder set would take to cyberlimbs. There's no point in going to the gym to exercise prostheses. But they're entirely unearned. What's the point, having strength or building up strength? And how does one get sufficient exercise when one lacks real limbs? I'd imagine obesity and heart problems would be major problems for the hard-core cyber crowd. Maybe that's why there's all the hormone-altering bioware and the digestive alterations.

[Blade]

But I'm unlikely to ask them to chop off my wang and stick a Mr Stud in its place anytime soon. Over the years I've grown rather fond of the one I've got.

You don't have to have yours removed, just find a place where to install another one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ravor]

Aye, but the problem is that although the human body is good at fixing things "good enough", there are oftentimes when "good enough" is not the same as good as new which any cyberlimb can be repaired to.

As for exercise, if the limbs are run off of your own body, perhaps that is enough to handle fitness.

[LurkerOutThere]

One could also easily make the argument that the human body needs maintenance, regular doctor visits, special tyreatments for ailments and maintenance of health (exercise) to maintain certain levels of performance. Performance thresholds that get harder and harder to hit as one gets older.

[Dikotana]

It's quite possible to go years at a time without needing a doctor. The reason for checkups is so that a little problem can be caught early before it becomes a really big problem.

A lot of cyberware tune-ups are probably similar, but I still very much get the sense from SR3 crunch and SR4 fluff that you're going to knock your servos out of alignment bit by bit. You need to go see your mechanic every few months, not every decade.

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually no both by crunch although possibly by fluff a shadowrunner does not need periodic maintenance for their cyberware unless (and this is an optional rule) the ware itself takes damage in the course of ones activities. SImilarly therte are no rules for sprained ankles, broken knuckles and all those other miscelanious things combat does to the body so saying that because of an active lifestyle your cyberware might need a tune up is a mis-nomer as so will the human body under the same stresses.

Point of fact: It takes nearly fifty times more pressure to bend a like amount of steel as it does to break a human femur. There is no reason to believe that artifical limbs and parts who be less durable then the human body when all common sense tells us they are more.

[Karoline]

Well, I don't think I'd have my arms/legs chopped off, but as soon as they have a datajack that lets me interface with a computer with my MIND I am all over that. Cyberears most likely. Being tone deaf sucks. Cybereyes.... well I always have a weird thing about things going near my eyes, and I don't think I could ever ware contacts, but maybe cybereyes would help with that, and it would hopefully cure my colorblindness.

I do have to agree though, I don't think Joe Wageslave is going to have much insentive to chop off an arm and put on a mechanical replacement. He would likely however have a sleep regulator so he can have more free time, a datajack so he can use his commlink better (And it is just dirt cheap), and perhaps some other small things. I would imagine the biggest reason to not get alot of cyberware like cybereyes is that you can get the same thing by wearing glasses with some upgrades for a fraction of the price.

[Chrysalis]

I would definitely like to move faster, think quicker, see farther, do extreme sports without concerns about irrepairribly damaging my own body.

[Angelone]

Personally, I'd be all over cyber/bioware. I don't care about the consequences 50, 20, or even 5 years down the road. The future doesn't matter if I have no present.

[Dikotana]

Actually no both by crunch although possibly by fluff a shadowrunner does not need periodic maintenance for their cyberware unless (and this is an optional rule) the ware itself takes damage in the course of ones activities. SImilarly therte are no rules for sprained ankles, broken knuckles and all those other miscelanious things combat does to the body so saying that because of an active lifestyle your cyberware might need a tune up is a mis-nomer as so will the human body under the same stresses.

And I show my status as behind the times. SR3 gives some very light rules for regular maintenance. They're certainly not mandated, but they're there, and they make a point of saying that higher-grade cyberware requires more frequent fixing.

Point of fact: It takes nearly fifty times more pressure to bend a like amount of steel as it does to break a human femur. There is no reason to believe that artifical limbs and parts who be less durable then the human body when all common sense tells us they are more.

Point of fact: Your cyberlimb is almost certainly not going to snap in half. But what do you do if you knock a servo out of place (pull a muscle?), or a circuit gets chipped, or a wire comes loose? Entropy always wins. What makes you think a complicated device that has to interface with flesh and nerves will be immune to bitrot?

The really scary thought is how often cyberware will get infected with viruses. I can just imagine the script kiddies giggling over creating a "Doctor Strangelove" virus. Talk about alien limb syndrome.

[LurkerOutThere]

Which is actually completely opposite of the way things work logically I'm not sure why people think a better made piece of equipment needs more maintenance then a poorly made one. It's not that entropy will never win it's just a point of fact that flesh is far far less durable then steel. Again it's not that things never break, it's literally that they certainly don't break any more frequently then the human body while offering substantial benefits.

Yes you could live in fear that your cyberware might get infected with a virus, you could also catch AIDS and die or get your arm broken in a street fight. You could catch gangrene from lack of adequate medical care. The poibnt of fact is any problems that flesh has chrome has less of them any spins folks want to put on that are purely in their head.

[Dikotana]

Higher grade cyberware is higher tech cyberware. The tech is newer, the parts are more finicky, and things go wrong more often. Or so I suppose; I didn't write the rule.

And you're not reading what I'm writing. A piece of steel in your arm isn't going to break. The wiring, microchips, interfaces with nerves, and other tiny things that are going to get rattled around by being part of an arm? Those will break. Not suddenly, and not badly, but something will start working ever so slightly worse than it first did, and then something else will go wrong, and as little glitches add up you find yourself in need of maintenance.

Always? Who knows? The Mars rovers were built to take a beating, and they've far exceeded their expected operating time. And sometimes your new computer will start making funny sounds a couple of months after you buy the parts. Things break down, and if you don't get them checked out and possibly tweaked the will break down catastrophically.

The human body, on the other hand, breaks all the time. But as I said before, it's also an amazing self-repairing machine. Yes, you can do some damage more easily, but it also recovers more easily. If you pull a muscle, you'll get better if you give it a rest. If you fray the casing on a wire, it's fried until you go in their and replace or repair the sucker. If your arm gets shot and doesn't end up pulped, it'll heal. If your cyberarm gets shot and the bullet goes through, you're looking at a huge repair bill that can't come from eating right and getting enough sleep.