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Thanos007
post Sep 22 2009, 07:22 PM
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I know that Renraku has the Crimson Samurai and Aztechnology has the Golden Jaguars. Do any other companies have named elite security teams?
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TBRMInsanity
post Sep 22 2009, 07:24 PM
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Cross Applied Technologies use to have the Seraphim.
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McCummhail
post Sep 22 2009, 07:26 PM
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Ares Firewatch?
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TBRMInsanity
post Sep 22 2009, 07:33 PM
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While S-K doesn't have any SecForce mentioned, Big L has his own personal Watchers (like most other Dragons).
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Dragnar
post Sep 23 2009, 04:53 AM
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Most of those aren't "elite security teams" as much as paramilitary (or even fully military) HTR-teams, though. They don't usually walk the beat in some R&D-lab, but instead get called if the semiliquid brown excrement hits the mobile air agitator.
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Dikotana
post Sep 23 2009, 05:12 AM
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Mostly. No one can afford more than rent-a-cops for most security work, even the megas. But when the corp is doing delta-grade research into the SECRETS MAN WAS NOT MEANT TO KNOW, they probably put their best on the case.

I don't think Firewatch is quite that, though. Knight Errant itself is something of an elite security force. Firewatch is more like the Ares equivalent to the Marine Corps. They don't respond to threats, they strike preemptively.
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Khyron
post Sep 23 2009, 07:22 AM
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And then there's Horizon which unleashes it's army of reporters on you, to publicly dig up every aspect of your life on live tv from interviewing your first grade teacher to condemning your position on UCAS social security.
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kzt
post Sep 23 2009, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (Dikotana @ Sep 22 2009, 11:12 PM) *
I don't think Firewatch is quite that, though. Knight Errant itself is something of an elite security force. Firewatch is more like the Ares equivalent to the Marine Corps. They don't respond to threats, they strike preemptively.

No, Firewatch is the equivalent of Delta. Quite small, very highly trained, extravagantly equipped, extremely deadly.
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PBTHHHHT
post Sep 23 2009, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 23 2009, 01:20 PM) *
No, Firewatch is the equivalent of Delta. Quite small, very highly trained, extravagantly equipped, extremely deadly.


Yeah, I'm thinking if they want a larger force, it may be more cost effective to hire mercs or shadowrunners to do their deeds (hence this game, heh). Or pull in some strings with the government (politicians). No need to maintain a large amount of money on something when you can concentrate the fundings to a small group and splurge on a large force only once in a while.
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SincereAgape
post Sep 23 2009, 09:26 PM
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Renraku - Crimson Samurai
Aztechnology - Golden Jaguars.
Cross Applied Technologies - Seraphim
Ares - Ares Firewatch.

Going to keep editing this list as the thread continues.
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the_real_elwood
post Sep 23 2009, 11:57 PM
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I would imagine that every AAA and most of the AA corps have their own elite forces that they use for company-sanctioned dirty work, threat response at critical facilities, and as personal security for high-ranking corporate employees. For a lot of things, if a corp needs some skilled muscle, they'll hire Shadowrunners because it's a deniable asset. But there's lots of things that these companies just won't trust to outsiders.

And as far as Aztechnology goes, they've got access to any Aztlan troops as well, so you can count the Aztlan Jaguar and Leopard guards in with their elite security forces as well.
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MK Ultra
post Sep 24 2009, 09:10 AM
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Actually the Leopard and Jaguar Guard are Aztech Corporate Security. The Aztlan Military has the four(?) magical warrior orders (Otontin, Puma, Eagle & Quachic, IIRC). Of course they also have those lovely blood mages.


As far as I recollect the special para-military/military* & intelligence** forces of the big ten used to be:

Ares: Knight Errant Firewatch* & The Unseen** (Shamanic Spooks)

Aztech: Leopard & Jaguar Guard* plus some lovely Blood Mages

CATCo (now mostly part of Ares, though the Seraphim didn´t convert afaik): Seraphim**

MCT made heavy use of armed security robots back in the day

Novatch (now Neonet): Schrödinger´s Cats** (Deckers)

Renraku: Red Samurai

Shiawase: Kami no Bushi*

SK: don´t remember any special name, but they have a lot of bad fraggers in regular security units.

Wuxing: Can´t remember anything special.

Yamatetsu (now Evo): Special Security Detail**

All the Megas (except one, but I forgot which) also had some standing military units of variying size, which where organized separatly from regular security, but the line was pretty blured at times. There is practically no difference between sec & mil at SK, i.e., as people get transfered back and forth on a regular basis.


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AngelisStorm
post Sep 24 2009, 10:45 AM
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A question I've wondered about in the past:

"Company Men" are effectively Corp Shadowrunners. Because of this, there must be the Corp equivelant of Street Sams (aka not yet a cyberzombie), though I expect there will be more covert oops amonst company men (but you never know when you might need a Vindicare or Eversor).

(I just finished Neuromancer; mmm cloned bio-ninjas.)

Anyway, I've always been curious what differences people see between combat oriented Company Men/Company Sams and the elite combat units such as Firewatch, besides that Firewatch (for the most part) is on the books.
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Naysayer
post Sep 24 2009, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Sep 24 2009, 12:45 PM) *
A question I've wondered about in the past:

"Company Men" are effectively Corp Shadowrunners. Because of this, there must be the Corp equivelant of Street Sams (aka not yet a cyberzombie), though I expect there will be more covert oops amonst company men (but you never know when you might need a Vindicare or Eversor).

(I just finished Neuromancer; mmm cloned bio-ninjas.)

Anyway, I've always been curious what differences people see between combat oriented Company Men/Company Sams and the elite combat units such as Firewatch, besides that Firewatch (for the most part) is on the books.


IMHO, even an Ares FW squad is, at their core, still a bunch of mooks, albeit high-powered mooks with above starting-character level dice-pools, big guns, some cyber and the explicit IC permission to bring down an entire wiki of SWAT-tactics on the PC's asses. But, still mooks, with group edge and all that.

A "corp-sam" is exactly that. A group-level appropriate samurai with the street-theme filed off and refitted with corp-fluff. That should include MOAR alpha/betaware, MOAR bioware, MOAR ressources and MOAR etc.: the corps version of a 00-agent, a guy wades through a bunch of mooks and competently, mercilessly ties up any "loose end" with the same ease as a halfway decently built street-sam.
Thematically, such a guy can be awesome.
Or dastardly dumb.
It really depends on the type of campaign you enjoy.
Because, if you get down with it, even a badass "corp-sam" lacks the versatility of a FW squad: no (relevant) hacking, no magic, no drones, no ability to set up crossfire... Then there's the fact that, sending such a guy to do stuff that he could "realistically" solo is probably overkill, while stuff that would be a challenge would also mean an disproportionate risk to everything the corp has invested in the guy. In the same vein, most every group that is not the Occult Investigator and his buddy the Technomancer will probably find a way to put one single enemy out of business very fast and very anti-climactically.

In short, personally, I find the idea of a corp-sanctioned cyber-ninja singlehandedly daniel-craig-ing his way through the PC's periphery awesome and fitting.
However, IF I were a Shiawase accountant and found out that we just sent several million nuyen with basically our company logo on them out into the sprawl to do a job that could be done by a spirit on remote service, a C4-rigged mini-drone or, you know, 5 grand and a sleazy handshake from the "Special Operations Budget" to hire an actual street-samurai, I'd totally cancel casual Friday. Forever.

[nerdrage]Oh, and people, PLEASE! It the RED friggin' Samurai!!![/nerdrage] (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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kzt
post Sep 24 2009, 04:12 PM
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Depending on just what version of Firewatch you use. The fluff and supporting crunch is mutually contradictory. Firewatch has mages who cast heavy duty spells in deep space. Firewatch has guys who routinely go to metaplanes, fight their way into hives and blow things up with nukes, killing everything that tries to stop them.
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Warlordtheft
post Sep 24 2009, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Naysayer @ Sep 24 2009, 06:54 AM) *
[nerdrage]Oh, and people, PLEASE! It is the RED fragging' Samurai!!![/nerdrage] (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Corrected for proper grammer.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


SK doesn't have any special forces because, all his troops are of special forces quality. They are 100% percent successful in their missions, and if not, they are wyrmfood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Naysayer
post Sep 24 2009, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (Naysayer @ Sep 24 2009, 01:54 PM) *
[nerdrage]Oh, and people, PLEASE! It's the RED fucking Samurai!!![/nerdrage] (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 24 2009, 06:29 PM) *
Corrected for proper grammer.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If you wanna go down that road... corrected for proper edition... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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McCummhail
post Sep 24 2009, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 24 2009, 12:29 PM) *
Corrected for proper grammar.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Corrected because Kelsey has nothing to do with this discussion.
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Thanos007
post Sep 25 2009, 02:01 PM
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The Tir had the Moonlight Thorns. Are they still in business?
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Naysayer
post Sep 25 2009, 03:23 PM
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They all got laid off.
They're all bouncers at goth-clubs, now.

edit: I have no idea. Actually, I think I've never even heard of these guys. The Tir DO have the Ghosts, who are apparently super-bitchin' awesome. Isn't one deadly awesome specil force per major player enough?
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McCummhail
post Sep 25 2009, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (Thanos007 @ Sep 25 2009, 10:01 AM) *
The Tir had the Moonlight Thorns. Are they still in business?
QUOTE (Naysayer @ Sep 25 2009, 11:23 AM) *
They all got laid off.
They're all bouncers at goth-clubs, now.

I thought the Moonlight thorns had gotten their act together and even use ghosts as backup these days?
They always put on one hell of a show.
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rob
post Sep 25 2009, 04:54 PM
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My two cents on 'combat-oriented-company-men' vs. elite forces: different job entirely. A combat oriented company man IS more like a street sam, and has an entirely different skill set from a military dude.

The company man will be a badass with very light weapons (assault-rifle-and-below). He will have the various concealable thingies. He will have tricked out armor that looks like clothes and assorted infiltration stuff.

The mil dude will have heavy body armor, heavier weaponry (assault-rifle-is-the-smallest-thing-for-a-primary-weapon), won't much care how much his ware is visible, and will travel in packs, probably with vehicles and drones.

The company man will do shadowrunner stuff and probably work directly with runners to make sure jobs meet intent. The mil-dudes will be quick response for big facilities and action targets in things like rural areas where there's no particular danger of being exposed if you go weapons-free.

The company man wouldn't survive for five seconds versus a mil dude in a no-holds-barred, screw the visibility, screw the collateral damage fight. The mil dude wouldn't survive five seconds against the company man in a bar fight with an ulterior motive.
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Dikotana
post Sep 26 2009, 03:21 AM
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I think you're close, Rob, but my analysis is a little bit different.

Corps may, on bad days, be lumbering, inefficiant titans that can be stung by shadowrunner gadflies, but they're not stupid. They know that shadowrunners are very effective, and they are a risk? The answer? Company men are essentially indistinguishable from shadowrunners with loyalties, probably to the extent of having extensive underworld contacts. You don't get one man in a posh uniform sporting extensive 'ware, you have one or two of them backed up by a mage and a rigger. They're elite teams. They aren't quite special ops, because they aren't really military. They are more accurately espionage and counter-espionage with exceptionally high combat ability. 007 is pretty much spot-on. Or in other terms, it wouldn't be outrageous to view them as SEALs who also happen to maybe be CIA spooks.

So what happens in a fight? Well, in an open field, a platoon of well-equipped and well-trained soldiers can take down any small group. But drop them both into a combat zone without clear lines of sight, and the platoon is likely to start shrinking rapidly by drone sniping, spirit attacks, traps, and ambushes.

Why both? Cyberware is expensive. These "company men" are expensive. But compared to special forces? Well, special forces have expensive gear, and training isn't cheap. In both cases, people are a limiting resource as well. It takes a high caliber of metahuman to become the kind of combatant these guys have to be.

So which do you hope to face? If you burst into a corridor and find yourself facing an enemy, you'd better hope it's not elite security, because they will be launching an impossible hail of fire at you and you will die. If you're crawling in the ventilation system, you can go around, distract, or otherwise deal with even high-grade security. It's the corprunners who will know your tricks, hunt you down, follow you into the sprawl, kill off your fixer and your favorite black clinic docs, and bring you to ground and take you out.

Put in game terms, security should be a location threat. They are guarding a place (or thing), or they are sent in to bust down doors somewhere. They won't be sent after you. They fall narratively more into the player vs. environment area. In that, they're still faceless mooks. Corprunners can be anywhere, and they're task-oriented. They can be pursuing you (or what you took, or what you know), and they will keep coming. They are people. They are player versus man, and they should be scary in a dread way as well as a cybered-up monster way. A group of shadowrunners with corporate runners after them should be peering around corners with fiber optic cables and changing SINs and commlinks on an hourly basis.
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kzt
post Sep 26 2009, 06:02 AM
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It's time to grab your bug out bags, leave town and go to ground somewhere a long way away. And not tell anyone where you went.
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Dikotana
post Sep 26 2009, 06:38 AM
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Turning off all electronic devices and surrounding yourself with FAB can't hurt while you're being somewhere else for a while. Alternately, if you can become a shedim and be someone else for a while, that'd be good to.

(Has anyone ever had a shedim as a player character?)
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