A Game Rife With Problems, Or, How Do You Fix Everything At The Same Time? Options

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Okay, here's the problem.

Right now, I have a group of seven players. All of them are my friends, and three of them are my roommates. (We live in a suite.) Also, these are the only people that I know of that play Shadowrun on campus, barring one guy who earned himself a permaban from any game I run. The game's had... oh, six sessions or so now. And if I cannot fix a vast majority of these problems, I find myself wanting very much to either reboot the game or just kill it dead with fire.

Now, just about all of these things are my fault; I just didn't care about what seemed to be my worries: everyone was having fun. But when it became very, very clear to me that about half the group wasn't... well, when it's not just me, it's a problem. So now I have to fix this massive mess I've caused, and I really just don't know how to do it myself.

Here are the issues.

>There are two players I'd love to get rid of due to behavior. Unfortunately, they're both roommates of mine, and the third roommate is someone I really want to keep in the game.

>Five of the seven characters can be summarized as "moar dakka." The other two are a hacker and a sneak. Between the two, only the hacker is any good at what he does, meaning that, if I want to involve the entire group, it's dakka or TPK.

>On the flip side, because there's so much redundancy, three people are feeling completely useless. All of them are players I want to keep.

>The hacker, who is (again) the only person competently focused on something besides dakka in the group, is one of the players I want to drop.

>The group does not have the attention span to deal with lots of people splitting up.

>The party has so much dakka -- we're talking lasers and airburst grenade launchers, as well as Barretts/miniguns with antivehicular rounds -- that I am struggling mightily to find a way to have enemies not die without having them being completely immune to normal damage. I am avoiding that last because the party's entire non-normal damage resources consist of the mage's Stunball spell.

>The common response to the above would be to have them arrested. But that's rocket tag: they're incredibly easy to track down (someone has Distinctive Style 3) and could probably take on easily anything that wouldn't kill them outright.

>I also don't want to strip their weapons, because so much of their resources (especially qualities) have gone into buying said things.

So... what do I do, Dumpshock? Do I start over? Is there any way to ask Roomies A and B to leave without making my housing situation miserable for the rest of this school year? Should I just call it quits and form a different group with a different system?

[MusicMan]

Rocks fall, everyone dies.


I think at the point you have described that G.O.D. should come in and say hello. Let them go down in a blaze of glory fighting a military unit or CorpSec SWAT Team.

[Khyron]

You should pull the session over to the side of the road and have a discussion with your group over what everyone wants to do, and how they want to play until you all come to an agreement and then resume from there.

[Nemo]

Sounds like a mercenary team, not a group of Shadowrunners. I would send the on a merc mission (Azzies vers. Amazonia, somewhere in Africa or Asia).

[Traul]

How about splitting the group? 7 players sounds huge to me. You should be able to explain them that it's more that you can manage and offer somebody else to take on GMing so you can make 2 groups with 3 players each. You can already provide the books, that's a nice incentive. And that way it does not look like you are kicking anybody out of the game.

Then it's up to you to end with the right group. To get rid of your roommates, you could argue that you want to see other people too. The idea is to split your flat: 2 within each group. And you pick the one you prefer.

[ShadowPavement]

I would have to agree with Traul here. 7 is a big group and the best way to deal with it is to split them up and get a more managable group size with the people you like to run.

The best thing I ever did for my SR game was get a group of 3 players and keep it at that.

[Karoline]

>There are two players I'd love to get rid of due to behavior. Unfortunately, they're both roommates of mine, and the third roommate is someone I really want to keep in the game.
>Is this behavior at the table, or behavior as in how they have their characters act? Either way the best thing to do is to ask them to tone down whatever behavior it is that you don't like. Cutting them from the group is likely to create alot of tension, and is real bad when they are roommates. So talk to them, be polite and just say "Hey, could you cut down on making constant fart jokes?" at first, if they don't cool it, confront them more directly "If I hear the word 'Fart' at the next session, invisible snipers will be after you." (Okay, little harsh, but make them understand it is bugging you and likely others)

>Five of the seven characters can be summarized as "moar dakka." The other two are a hacker and a sneak. Between the two, only the hacker is any good at what he does, meaning that, if I want to involve the entire group, it's dakka or TPK.
>My terminology sucks, but I'm guessing that means they are all super combat monsters. Well, a big part in preventing this is in your hands during character creations. As GM you can nix a character. Had it back to them and tell them to tone down the combat power. This is also facilitated by the type of game you run. If the game contains tons of combat and little else... well there isn't much reason to not make a combat monster. Force the characters to do non combat things. Make them do legwork, give them missions where they aren't allowed to cause casualties (You know... like stealth... shadowy), give them problems that have non-combat solutions.

>On the flip side, because there's so much redundancy, three people are feeling completely useless. All of them are players I want to keep.
>Kill off/retire either the half that you want to keep or the half that you don't. Have them make characters and when character approval comes around, tell them they can't play the archetype that there is already 3 of. Edit: As the others have said, seven is a bit of a big group, and it can be hard for everyone to have a unique role with that many. Splitting the group may be a decent idea (Conveniently splitting it into the players you like and those you don't, the one with the players you don't like so much will likely die off on its own)

>The hacker, who is (again) the only person competently focused on something besides dakka in the group, is one of the players I want to drop.
>That sucks, but if the first bit of advice works, hopefully this won't be a problem.

>The group does not have the attention span to deal with lots of people splitting up.
>Do separate sessions? On normal day one group does stuff, and on alternate day group 2 does stuff.

>The party has so much dakka -- we're talking lasers and airburst grenade launchers, as well as Barretts/miniguns with antivehicular rounds -- that I am struggling mightily to find a way to have enemies not die without having them being completely immune to normal damage. I am avoiding that last because the party's entire non-normal damage resources consist of the mage's Stunball spell.
>Are you properly enforcing the availability of gear? If so are you also keeping in mind that 95% of their gear is illegal and hard to conceal? Sounds like they'd have trouble walking out the front door without having an army on them if they are carrying around grenade launchers. Also, you might be paying out too much per run if they have such easy access to expensive gear. AV ammo is 16F gear IIRC and is already kind of expensive. If they have so much of it and such easy access that they are using AV ammo in miniguns then that is a problem you can fix (Via enforcing availability and possibly reducing mission payout)

>The common response to the above would be to have them arrested. But that's rocket tag: they're incredibly easy to track down (someone has Distinctive Style 3) and could probably take on easily anything that wouldn't kill them outright.
>Team of swat snipers with Stick-n-Shock ammo camped outside someone's apartment? If they are flashing their gear and are easy to find then that is what they get. If they call bull, ask them what would happen to them if they walked down main street of campus with a rocket launcher. Really people are easy to take down. Most of SR is glass cannons, and surprise beats glass cannon.

>I also don't want to strip their weapons, because so much of their resources (especially qualities) have gone into buying said things.
>A bit too late, but this once again falls under "Don't approve things you don't want in your campaign." Also, did you remember that restricted gear gets you a single (1) item of rating above 12? Not free access to items above 12. Taking away such items might be what you need to do to get the game under control. Your other option might be to restart the campaign, allowing you to approve characters this time around with this knowledge in mind. If you don't want to just say 'Okay, we're restarting' you could have them do a mission that requires stealth (The Johnson goes on about how dangerous it will be and that a silent approach would be best) and when they screw it up because they are all combat monsters, don't feel bad about bringing in a firesquad and getting that TPK. "Maybe next time you'll invest in something besides the firearms group."

Edit: Also, are some/most/all of your players new? The 'everyone is a combat monster' problem tends to happen alot more in new players because they don't really know there are other options.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Karoline's post allows me to expand on these a bit.

>Is this behavior at the table, or behavior as in how they have their characters act? Either way the best thing to do is to ask them to tone down whatever behavior it is that you don't like. Cutting them from the group is likely to create alot of tension, and is real bad when they are roommates. So talk to them, be polite and just say "Hey, could you cut down on making constant fart jokes?" at first, if they don't cool it, confront them more directly "If I hear the word 'Fart' at the next session, invisible snipers will be after you." (Okay, little harsh, but make them understand it is bugging you and likely others)

Table. They're looking to have the best one-liner of the night.

>My terminology sucks, but I'm guessing that means they are all super combat monsters. Well, a big part in preventing this is in your hands during character creations. As GM you can nix a character. Had it back to them and tell them to tone down the combat power. This is also facilitated by the type of game you run. If the game contains tons of combat and little else... well there isn't much reason to not make a combat monster. Force the characters to do non combat things. Make them do legwork, give them missions where they aren't allowed to cause casualties (You know... like stealth... shadowy), give them problems that have non-combat solutions.

It doesn't work: they're so bad at everything else (a few social rolls aside) that doing pretty much anything else would be a TPK. And creation's four months come and gone.

>Kill off/retire either the half that you want to keep or the half that you don't. Have them make characters and when character approval comes around, tell them they can't play the archetype that there is already 3 of. Edit: As the others have said, seven is a bit of a big group, and it can be hard for everyone to have a unique role with that many. Splitting the group may be a decent idea (Conveniently splitting it into the players you like and those you don't, the one with the players you don't like so much will likely die off on its own)

I should mention: the three people feeling most redundant joined the campaign three sessions in. We tried to think of unique things for them to do, but most roles were covered by then.

>Do separate sessions? On normal day one group does stuff, and on alternate day group 2 does stuff.

Another thing worth mentioning: I just don't have time for this one. It's a stretch to run one game -- a stretch worth making, because I love it -- but two is impossible.

>Are you properly enforcing the availability of gear? If so are you also keeping in mind that 95% of their gear is illegal and hard to conceal? Sounds like they'd have trouble walking out the front door without having an army on them if they are carrying around grenade launchers. Also, you might be paying out too much per run if they have such easy access to expensive gear. AV ammo is 16F gear IIRC and is already kind of expensive. If they have so much of it and such easy access that they are using AV ammo in miniguns then that is a problem you can fix (Via enforcing availability and possibly reducing mission payout)

I am indeed. Pretty much all their gear was nabbed at creation; see below for more on this and why army slapdown doesn't work.

>Team of swat snipers with Stick-n-Shock ammo camped outside someone's apartment? If they are flashing their gear and are easy to find then that is what they get. If they call bull, ask them what would happen to them if they walked down main street of campus with a rocket launcher. Really people are easy to take down. Most of SR is glass cannons, and surprise beats glass cannon.

That's certainly true, but it doesn't work for the simple reason that the hacker is an AI and has the largest DPs in the group. Even if the snipers can take the entire team down in one round -- which would be required, since the team would basically one-shot them if they got their turns -- the hacker could get them out easy as anything.

>A bit too late, but this once again falls under "Don't approve things you don't want in your campaign." Also, did you remember that restricted gear gets you a single (1) item of rating above 12? Not free access to items above 12. Taking away such items might be what you need to do to get the game under control. Your other option might be to restart the campaign, allowing you to approve characters this time around with this knowledge in mind. If you don't want to just say 'Okay, we're restarting' you could have them do a mission that requires stealth (The Johnson goes on about how dangerous it will be and that a silent approach would be best) and when they screw it up because they are all combat monsters, don't feel bad about bringing in a firesquad and getting that TPK. "Maybe next time you'll invest in something besides the firearms group."

Edit: Also, are some/most/all of your players new? The 'everyone is a combat monster' problem tends to happen alot more in new players because they don't really know there are other options.

I am well aware of how Restricted Gear works, thanks. Are you aware that a minigun, a Barrett sniper rifle, an Ares M2 laser and charge pack, and an airbursted grenade launcher are all things within the scope of one or two applications of that quality?

Frankly, any of those things would have been fine on their own. (Okay, maybe not the minigun, but the allowing of that was a complex issue anyway.) It's just that when they're all in the same party, there's a problem. Though, as it happens, no one had played Shadowrun before this campaign.

[nezumi]

I'm assuming these are all adults. So given that...


Yes, 7 people is way too many. Online you can pull that off, but IRL, someone is going to get forgotten. Either pull someone up to be a narrator, or better, split the group.

As you pointed out, the nature of your missions is enabling people to play like this. If everyone is having fun, that's fine, but it's clear YOU are not having fun, and you are playing too (and let's be honest, the most important player - you work for hours and hours on this stuff). Change the plots to ones you'll enjoy more. Make the change gradually, so they don't go into shock and die. Dealing with big guns isn't hard, but you have to be creative. Jobs like bodyguarding, 'no casualties', discrete jobs (high concealability weapons only), jobs overseas where they have to smuggle stuff, or jobs where it's against a LOT of little people, rather than a small group of equivalent people. If they like big booms, feel free to make the job include big booms. Most basic Shadowrun plots can be transplanted to the barrens, against big professional gangs or the mafia, which means they can go to town pink mohawk style against combat helicopters and punktanks. But they still have to get the job done.

Don't be afraid to let characters die for failing to adapt. Don't go out of your way to kill them, but make the challenge clear, let them meet it, and let it stand or fail based on their skills and creativity. It doesn't sound like your players have invested much emotionally in the characters, so killing them won't send them away crying, but it'll be a lesson in what is necessary to survive.

Really, the goal is balance, and it's hard to balance between different players if their interests are widely divergent. There's no getting around that. In my game, I juggle. A little combat, a little planning, a little exploring, and everyone seems more or less happy. Don't expect everyone to enjoy every aspect, but you can at least expect them to respect it, and get good enough at it not to get killed.

[deek]

It sounds like you are making the game unsalvageable. What do you want to get out of your game? Meaning, what direction do you want to take it?

I would suggest giving them missions that required finesse or stealth, but your comments sound like you wouldn't do that because they are all combat focused.

Do you want to remove the gear? That should be easy enough. Just vastly outnumber them or drop some high force spirits on them...the nice thing about SR is that numbers always win and you, as GM, have an infinite supply of people, spirits and ammo to throw at them.

I guess I am at a loss to figure out what to help you with without knowing where you want to go. If you want a smaller group, then just say so. You are allowed to say that 7 people is too many for you to deal with and see what your players have to say. Maybe some of them would leave on their own?

[Dr Funfrock]

It doesn't work: they're so bad at everything else (a few social rolls aside) that doing pretty much anything else would be a TPK. And creation's four months come and gone.

I should mention: the three people feeling most redundant joined the campaign three sessions in. We tried to think of unique things for them to do, but most roles were covered by then.

What... But... How?!

You've told us that these guys have absolutely no useful skills except for dakka, but when 3 players joined the group after a few sessions (giving plenty of time to expose where the group needed shoring up) there was apparently nothing left for them to cover.

...

This must be what a recursive logic error feels like.

[Marwynn]

Well a Face, more magic support, a Rigger, and even a sneaky guy could've been one of those new characters.

I suggest a change of venue. Go mercenary and go to the NAN. If that doesn't appeal to you, then have them all start over.

[CollateralDynamo]

It sounds to me like the OP doesn't want to: kill players, have players re-do character creation, punish players for making not fun or not nonsensical choices, or talk to his players out of game to get them in line with what he wants. I'm not trying to be rude here, but those are really your only options.

I have GMed bigger groups for SR before (6 or 7 being a median for one of my groups). The key here is to make sure that all people are diversified or that your campaign is heavily focused on one thing. In your case, its too late to make everyone diversified, AND you don't want to heavily focus on combat it sounds like. That means you either need to reboot, or force your players into realizing they need to diversify.

I do want to know, if a mission calls for something "other then dakka" and they don't have that skill, how will it result in a TPK? The mission statement "minimal to no casualties" seems unlikely to result in that...it will just result in the them failing funs. And losing money, and having to sell off their uber gear to keep up their lifestyle...hey, wait a minute, that could help.

And how can your team kill snipers in the first pass? Snipers should be hidden incredibly well...with rediculous cover and concealment...I'd figure they'd have at least 15 seconds before they can both be located and fired upon. Realism here is key, the guy with big Minigun isn't going to take out the sniper thats five blocks away in a plascreet building.

Basically, what I am saying is, if you don't want "da dakka" make negative repurcussions for killing people. Either hit them in their wallets or hit them at home. Their characters will either adapt, or be killed off. And seriously, if you can't figure out how to kill them off, you aren't looking in a single SR4 sourcebook.

[Warlordtheft]

I would suggest that you decide how to approach this. If 7 PCs is too much. Tell the group, and see about splitting it up.

Really, I'd tell the group that at some point you'd like to reboot. Since this is your 1st time running SR, you could use this as a time to discuss the campaign style that you want to play.
First off Pink Mohawk (lots of carnage-think of the movie die hard) or mirrored shades and trenchcoats (think of the movie Ronin)?

If you need to force the issue---TPK the players. Keep in mind, killing someone in SR is easy. Also the corp opposition should have the same or better gear than the players. They bring a minigun, the corp brings 3.

[kzt]

That's certainly true, but it doesn't work for the simple reason that the hacker is an AI and has the largest DPs in the group. Even if the snipers can take the entire team down in one round -- which would be required, since the team would basically one-shot them if they got their turns -- the hacker could get them out easy as anything.

If you are allowing the hacker to play god you have lost. Everyone in SR knows that people can hack computers. Effective organizations don't believe stupid things.

Not only that, but large organizations have the ability to track people who hack their systems and bring lots of effort to bear on resolving this effectively. Things like wirecutters, a couple of military grade jammers and a kg on c12 on the AIs home node will often resolve things effectively.

[DireRadiant]

>There are two players I'd love to get rid of due to behavior. Unfortunately, they're both roommates of mine, and the third roommate is someone I really want to keep in the game.

Move the game to a different location, this gives an opportunity to split the group along lines other then who lives at the place the game is at.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Okay, I really want to thank you guys for your help. Some of the options are unappealing (I really hate having to disallow something I've already allowed) and some are downright untenable (we're all college students on the same campus, and only three of us have cars. Guess who two of them are.) but it's given me a pretty clear idea of what I want to do.

If anyone has anything else to offer, though, please leave a post; the game's not until Sunday, and I have time to figure it out.

[deek]

Okay, I really want to thank you guys for your help. Some of the options are unappealing (I really hate having to disallow something I've already allowed) and some are downright untenable (we're all college students on the same campus, and only three of us have cars. Guess who two of them are.) but it's given me a pretty clear idea of what I want to do.

If anyone has anything else to offer, though, please leave a post; the game's not until Sunday, and I have time to figure it out.

Remember, this is a game and the goal is to have fun. GMs make mistakes, too. While you may have to swallow a smidge of pride, I don't think the world is going to crash down if you go back and say, "On second thought, I really allowed you guys way too much firepower for what I was wanting to run."

I've got a bit of experience and there are still times I have to talk things over with my players (and we all get along AND have cars:) ) In fact, sometimes players come to me with suggestions on what can make the game more fun for them, and after talking to the rest of the table and getting agreement, I change the campaign and run it in a way that more fun is had by all.

I think you may be trying to do too much by yourself and not allowing it to be "okay" for you to make a mistake. Use your judgment and try to run your game that is the most fun for the most people. Those not having fun will deal with it or drop out, but as long as you talk it out, there won't be hard feelings...again, its just a game!

[Apathy]

[Personal opinion]It's an exercise in futility to try and fix an out-of-character problem with in-game changes. If the problem is that your players are dickwads, sniper teams with head shots won't really fix it. The only thing that can fix this is an out-of-character discussion with the players where you honestly state your issues and let them know what you need them to do in order for you to have fun. If they don't want to play that way everyone can agree to walk away with no hard feelings.

[StealthSigma]

That's certainly true, but it doesn't work for the simple reason that the hacker is an AI and has the largest DPs in the group. Even if the snipers can take the entire team down in one round -- which would be required, since the team would basically one-shot them if they got their turns -- the hacker could get them out easy as anything.

A SWAT grade sniper or better will likely have at least a DP8 when using sniper rifles. SnS rounds would deal 7S damage if you buy hits. Each sniper would get 2 shots that the PCs would most likely be unable to dodge due to surprise. That's a fairly reliable 14S damage from each sniper. Since it's stun damage, they resist it using willpower rather than body, and only get half their impact armor to resist. If they all have low willpower, they will be taking a lot of stun damage. Then they have to make a Body + Willpower (3) test, adding half their impact armor, just to avoid being incapacitated by the SnS for 3 rounds. Even if they succeed on that test, they're taking a -2 DP penalty for 3 rounds. Let's say they each take 9S damage on average, they're also taking a -3 DP penalty from that. So each of them are now basically staggering about with a -5 DP modifier. They aren't going to waste the snipers because it's going to be damn hard for them to locate them without ungodly perception checks.

Still, I have no idea how an AI hacker is supposed to get them out of their if authorities have the place surrounded and are capable of giving chase.

[BlueMax]

[Personal opinion]It's an exercise in futility to try and fix an out-of-character problem with in-game changes. If the problem is that your players are dickwads, sniper teams with head shots won't really fix it. The only thing that can fix this is an out-of-character discussion with the players where you honestly state your issues and let them know what you need them to do in order for you to have fun. If they don't want to play that way everyone can agree to walk away with no hard feelings.

This.

BTW, I have 7 players who are part of my Saturday game. I do think seven is too many for Shadowrun 4A.

BlueMax
/2nd ed, I could totally do it

[Traul]

If they don't want to play that way everyone can agree to walk away with no hard feelings.

No they can't: they LIVE together (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Omenowl]

It is hard to involve 7 players. I would recommend 2 GMs for the group. 1 GM handles tasks like astral and matrix the other handles the normal day to day interactions. It may also help to have Both of you switch NPCs so you can give a more immersive experience.

As for the too much combat I would say reboot or warn players that high visibility will have consequences. Also ask them how they spend time and roleplay a basic day for them. Something mundane, but see how they approach their daily life and routine (nothing exciting, but what time they wake up, what they watch, etc). After you have done that if they get notoriety then have that wrack up until you get enough for the hammer to fall. No mercy. If they all die that is fine, but if some survive then that is fine also. Just make sure they are repercussions for what they do. Also make it so they have to run or at least move even if they win the initial confrontation.


Finally, once that is done then reboot the game. Surviving characters can stay intact, but otherwise get a cohesive group where people pick roles.
Leader
Rigger
Hacker/Technomancer
Mage
Muscle
Infiltration specialist
Other (demolition, face, investigator, etc)
No more than 2 per category and some overlap is both expected and ok.

[Audious]

I see an easy fix to a lot of these problems. Get them hired, as said by another poster, for a mercenary campaign. Either private or commercial flight, they can't bring everything. Then, once they get where they're going, their safehouse isn't in the best of areas, they encounter magic on an increasingly dangerous level (starting relatively harmless, but causing them to realize this weakspot.) This may even cause some to get their characters killed and roll new ones for the situation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A SWAT grade sniper or better will likely have at least a DP8 when using sniper rifles. SnS rounds would deal 7S damage if you buy hits. Each sniper would get 2 shots that the PCs would most likely be unable to dodge due to surprise. That's a fairly reliable 14S damage from each sniper. Since it's stun damage, they resist it using willpower rather than body, and only get half their impact armor to resist. If they all have low willpower, they will be taking a lot of stun damage. Then they have to make a Body + Willpower (3) test, adding half their impact armor, just to avoid being incapacitated by the SnS for 3 rounds. Even if they succeed on that test, they're taking a -2 DP penalty for 3 rounds. Let's say they each take 9S damage on average, they're also taking a -3 DP penalty from that. So each of them are now basically staggering about with a -5 DP modifier. They aren't going to waste the snipers because it's going to be damn hard for them to locate them without ungodly perception checks.

Still, I have no idea how an AI hacker is supposed to get them out of their if authorities have the place surrounded and are capable of giving chase.

Just curious, but where are you getting that SNS damage is resisted with Willpower? For the initial damage, targets resist it with Body + 1/2 Impact Armor...
Secondary Damage is resisted as Body + Willpower (3)...

Please Elucidate...