 A thought on maneuvers for CC MA |
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 Jan 29 2004, 12:52 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112  |
Having a pretty keen interest in martial arts, I was annoyed, and still am, by the Cannon Companion martial arts rules. If nothing else, by the way that they set out the maneuvers. I mean, Jesus, I went to a Tae Kwon Do lesson once, and all they taught was kicks. Roundhouse kicks, side kicks, snap kicks, flying kicks, even kicks with chicken pox. You shouldn't have to buy it in addition to the skill, because it's the meat and bones of it. If you're going to a Tae Kwon Do lesson and they ain't teaching you kicks, what the hell are they teaching you? It's just like Jujitsu and the throw and subduing maneuvers or Choy Lay Fut and the multi-strike maneuver.
In any case, what I'm suggesting as a house rule is that a character, at certain skill levels, would learn these maneuvers as a matter of course, to reflect the fact that many of these maneuvers are actually the main basis of a martial art, things that you learn from day one, rather than something that you have to go out of your way to learn. So, comments and suggestions? |
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Jan 29 2004, 01:01 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
I completely agree. Though I'll have to do more thinking about how to work out the system for it.
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Jan 29 2004, 01:03 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
Yeah, the way I see it, it would be a lot more complex to set up, seeing as you would probably have to set certain maneuvers to certain skill levels.
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Jan 29 2004, 05:18 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
Fah... manuevers aren't needed. Let the player choose what he's doing - hopefully he'll roleplay his character's chosen combat style - and let the dice say how well he did it. You roll well on a character with TKD training? You land a kick to the target's head. You barely scratch a target with a boxer? That hook just barely caught the guy's shoulder. Miss altogether with a brawler? The opp ducks your clumsy attempt at a bearhug. Free your game! Dump the maneuvers! :P
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Jan 29 2004, 08:40 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Paris, France Member No.: 639 |
using kicks in melee combat doesn't require the Kick Attack maneuver. This maneuver represents the character's ability to efficiently use kicks in a combat, i.e. to make tactical use of kicks. Not all Tai Kwan Do make adequate use of kicks. They use kicks, and know how to kick. Use them at the right moment and in the right manner in a street fight requires the maneuver.
That's explained in the CC. |
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Jan 29 2004, 02:09 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
That would be true except the kick attack maneuver gives a specific disadvantage for the rest of the round, which someone untrained doesn't get... I think the solution is something as simple as a free maneuver when the skill hits 2, or force characters to take specific maneuvers at certain levels. On the other hand since TKD gets a specific bonus when using Kick, what sort of bumbling idiot DOESN'T take kick. Likewise with Jujutsu (my favourite of the canon MA's) - you're a complete moron if you don't take Throw, since that's where the major advantage of the art is... Now, the weapons training needs work IMO... |
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Jan 29 2004, 02:22 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Why isn't simply forcing the characters to take maneuvers enough? I'd understand forcing specific maneuvers on them if the martial art was extremely strict and only taught certain things at certain levels, but that doesn't sound right. |
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Jan 29 2004, 02:33 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
I wouldn't go for that personally, but I'm just throwing ideas around... I'd let a player have freedom with any MA - after all, IRL (IMLE) not every school teaches things in the same way and the arts as written are pretty limited. If a TKD users wanted to not take kicks, more power to him (as it were...) |
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Jan 29 2004, 02:48 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay. Sorry. I'm getting too irritated again, I'll take a break...
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Jan 29 2004, 02:50 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 22-January 04 Member No.: 6,002 |
The weapon system for the select M. Arts definitely needs work. If you can blind fight with your hands and feet, you can blind fight with a Wakizashi. If you can focus strength with your fist, you can do it with a Bo or something. I guess the real problem I have is that many of the Martial Arts of today are so closely tied to Weapon usage, that without them, it isn't said M. Art, like Ninjitsu. While Ninjitsu trains a practitioner to be an efficient killing machine without weapons, and much of the time is spent strengthening hands and feet for just such an occasion, you would NEVER go on an assignment for your Dojo without some concealed weaponry. Ninjitsu is about efficiency, and it is more efficient to kill with a weapon than with bare hands.
So, having to learn a maneuver all over again to use it with a corresponding skill is wrong, IMHO. I dont think you should have to use Karma or build points to use the same maneuver. Here is a weak solution: your character must start with a weapons skill equal to said M. Art, and the skills must improve together. You could not improve the M. Art without improving the weapon skill as well, enough Karma for both must be spent. Then, when it comes time to learn a maneuver, you learn it for both skills. Example: Aido wants to learn the Disorient maneuver. He is a Physad. with a Ninjitsu skill of 3 and an Edged weapons skill of 3. He has already taken Evasion, so he must first improve his skills. To do so, he must train at his Dojo, and spend a Total of 10 Karma (5 for Weap, 5 for M. art), to improve both skills. They cannot be improved seperately. When he spends 2 Karma for the maneuver, he learns it for both skills |
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Jan 29 2004, 03:57 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Paris, France Member No.: 639 |
False. The mistake probably comes from the name "Kick attack". Doing a kick is different from using Kick Attack maneuver. Someone untrained doesn't get the disavantage, but doen't get the benefit either. Someone without Kick Attack can give punches or kicks, SR rules doens't diferentiate them, and the damage code or reach will be the same in both cases. Someone who learned the Kick Attack maneuver, however, learned to tactically use kicks so that he gets reach bonus, at the price of being more vulnerable. The only exception to the rule stating that SR melee system doesn't make a distinction between (non maneuver) blow types like punches and kicks is when a MA gives a bonus/malus for this particular type of blow. For instance, surely TKD practitioner has a bonus to use kicks, so one can assume that unless stated otherwise, this practitionner will always use kicks when in melee. But sometimes the situation won't allow him to do that, or at a price (for instance, when fighting in 1m of water). of course a jujutsu practitioner can perform throws, but the Throw maneuver is a different thing. In fact, writing this rant helped me to point to a possibly helpful vocabulary trick: a kick or a punch or a throw is sort of a BLOW, while Kick Attack or Throw is a MANEUVER. They are different things and shouldn't be confused. BLows, everyone can use. Maneuvers, you must have specific training. |
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Jan 29 2004, 04:06 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Between the electrons Member No.: 465 |
And let us not forget that canon SR doesn't use a blow-by-blow system. I made blow-by-blow house rules for my campaign which integrate perfectly with martial arts, weapons, and firearms. I suppose I could post them somewhere.
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Jan 29 2004, 04:10 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Paris, France Member No.: 639 |
I agree that something feels wrong with weapons, weapons skills and MAs. And that these things are not well explained, too.
While I agree on the first assertion, I disagree with the second one.
This doesn't mean that the RL Ninjutsu should correspond to a global SR skill that would grant skill in any weapon aknowledgedly (sp?) associated to RL Ninjutsu. This as well could mean that when a character follows a Ninja training, he is thaught the SR skill of Ninjutsu along with various weapon skills. The global training teach him how he should combine both in practical situations. That should be coverd by background and roleplay, more than game mechanics, IMHO.
At least the game mechanic behind that is wrong, I agree. Plus I think only some maneuvers can be considered as similar unarmed and armed. In conclusion, the very problem seems (to me) to have its origin in the maneuvers implementation itself rather than the concept of maneuver or anything else. i.e. the list of maneuvers and their effects, and so on, has not been thoroughly thought about/playtested "enough". |
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Jan 29 2004, 04:13 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
I don't like the MA rules in general. The idea that whole disciplines can be reduced to a variation on unarmed combat is absurd. Here's an example: The SR implementation of ninjitsu.
Putting aside the absurd clan loyalty BS (my friend practices at a ninjitsu dojo, and if he decided to stop coming, nobody would be hunting him down...) if one wanted to authentically build a character who is a high-level practitioner of ninjitsu (i.e., a ninja), he wouldn't just have a 6 in "Ninjitsu." He'd have a high level fo Unarmed Combat, probably Clubs and Edged Weapons fairly high, Atheletics with a specialization in Acrobatics, a good Stealth rating, and a number of knowledge skills, like those related to the history of the art. The point is, a martial art is not just a type of unarmed combat, it's a constellation of skills. The way the SR MA rules work, it's almost like they made a skill called "Soldier," which can be used to dig trenches, shoot guns, march in formation... in other words, one skill that encompasses a large number of individual skills related only be the fact that theu're used by soldiers. |
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Jan 29 2004, 04:14 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
The thing is that SR melee combat is abstracted beyond this level - you don't make individual blows - the single complex action represents more than A punching B and B counterattacking, it's posturing and positioning as well. Anything else is simply flavour.
The only times the rules mention "kick" or "throw" they do so in relation to the maneuvers and associated bonuses. If you want that layer of abstraction removing I suggest that Ninjas and Superspies might be a better game. I'm still trying to come up with coherent and sensible rules for the weapon skills... (edit: this was in response to Namergon and a few people beat me to the posting!) |
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Jan 29 2004, 04:20 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 12-August 03 From: Sulphur, Louisiana Member No.: 5,418 |
I actually love the MA rules.. One of my favorite characters of late is a human adept who took 3 different MAs.. His style is a mix of Muy Thai (Skill 6, Kick Attack, Kip-Up, Sweep), Grecko-Roman wrestling (Skill 6, Ground Fighting, Zoning, Herding), and Akido (Skill 4, Throw and Focus Will). He switches back and forth between styles depending on the situation.. Muy Thai when he's got plenty of room to work with, Akido when on the defensive, and Crecko-Roman when it gets real dirty..
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Jan 29 2004, 05:44 PM
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#17
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
THE MA rules are horribly out if character and ill concieved in the context of the game because of the abstraction issues mentioned earlier. To boot a number of techniques are useless while others are overpowering. It is completely unbalanced and completely removed from any sense of reality.
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Jan 29 2004, 05:49 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757 |
The Munchie's response to LoseAsDirected's post would be.
"Haha, you should have used the karma on just raising one skill really high that has all of the manuvers you need." My response is... I thought you could only use one style per combat round. Someone double check me on this please? I don't have my book handy. |
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