[X] My Assistant

[triarchic]

I agree with Chrysalis regarding the problem as a direct parallel to common inner city problems. Also as I read down the posts I started to replace the word Ork with Black Individual or Hispanic etc... some of the media problems and cultural issues are greatly represented here regarding (Black/Hispanic) people.

"Promote the image of self-destructive behaviour in music and media that the Orks (Black/Hispanic people) follow. Sneak in guns and drugs freely for the gangs. Target the small middle class and increase their debts and push them back below the poverty line; targetting middle-class ork (Black/Hispanic people) students with drugs, or simply getting them into debt."

Very interesting...

[Weaver95]

SIDS

Imagine how much damage a Mage could do by summoning a low Force spirit with orders of "Go forth and smother as many trog babies as you can!" Or perhaps a Decker could insert similair code into the interactive toys that are all the rage.

...and now I have some ideas for what Alamos 20k is going to be up to for the next story arc....

[Cardul]

I agree with Chrysalis regarding the problem as a direct parallel to common inner city problems. Also as I read down the posts I started to replace the word Ork with Black Individual or Hispanic etc... some of the media problems and cultural issues are greatly represented here regarding (Black/Hispanic) people.

Yes, there are times I think that SR Orks/Trolls are meant as veiled political commentary on minorities
in RL. The fact that you can easily say that the creators of SR might not have wanted to deal with
resurgent skin-based racism, and instead chose to go a more sub-species-ist route...

[cndblank]

No need for secret plots

Just pass a few laws and regulations to "control" the situation.


The parents (of all meta types) are taxed based on the number of children they have after the first which doubles for each child after the second (got to pay for those social services (like using the sidewalk and breathing)).

Initially include an exception for multiple births on the first pregnancy, but gradually remove it over a few decades or so.


The Sinless are not citizens and there for are committing a crime if they became pregnant (attempted delinquency of a minor - attempted smuggling of a minor over national border - Tax evasion).
Being sinless and not on birth control is a felony.
Charges dropped for voluntarily termination and temporary sterilization.
All sinless are required to be on birth control (freely provided at no charge). Reversible for a "small" fee.


Birth control is mandatory for anyone under 21 (both sexes). That will cut a female Orc's childbearing years in half.


To go one step further, the birth control in the water is a good idea. Just require potential parents to pay a "small" fee and take a "Parenting Class" before they get a prescription for the antidote to the birth control drugs in the water.

[PirateChef]

You could always crop dust the barrens with inhalant based sterility drugs. Possibly some type that is easily reversed if you have the money to afford it so you don't have to worry too much about accidentally sterilizing someone important.

[Fuchs]

I tought it was very obvious that orks and trolls stood for real life minorities. The "orxploitation" mentioned was just the last such "Hint".

[DWC]

I tought it was very obvious that orks and trolls stood for real life minorities. The "orxploitation" mentioned was just the last such "Hint".

I found it pretty odd that they went with Orxsploitation after Shadowrun has spent the last 20 years drawing orks around latino stereotypes and trolls around african american ones, but I guess trollsploitation doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Neraph]

Target the small middle class and increase their debts and push them back below the poverty line; targetting middle-class ork (Black/Hispanic people) students with drugs, or simply getting them into debt."

This is wrong. If there is a middle class for orks and trolls (I add trolls because it has come up in the course of the thread), then they are working for a Corp, and the Corp will "take care" of them. It is possible for a Corp to force sterilization, but when they could instead breed and train specialized brute fighters... you get the point.

More than likely, the ork population that are accepted into a Corp are very similar to modern-day Japanese: they focus their lives on "having fun" and their jobs instead of actually settling down and making a family. Especially if they know they only have roughly 50 years, they most probably would want to climb the Corporate Ladder rather than either splitting their already limited time between family and career, or simply be a homemaker (although purist homemakers would not neccessarily be uncommon).

The Sinless are not citizens and there for are committing a crime if they became pregnant (attempted delinquency of a minor - attempted smuggling of a minor over national border - Tax evasion).
Being sinless and not on birth control is a felony.
Charges dropped for voluntarily termination and temporary sterilization.
All sinless are required to be on birth control (freely provided at no charge). Reversible for a "small" fee.

If SINless are caught, they go to jail and recieve a Criminal SIN, if they are not brutalized and killed before reaching the jails. The cops don't regulate the SINless like you suggest; they are SINless - they have no legal protection at all. If they are found, while breaking a law or not, simply being SINless is a crime that is punishable by jail time.

But, recieving a Criminal SIN is for those fortunate enough to actually make it to the jails and to survive them.

Back to the main thread concept: there would be a certain population size that would be self-sustainable, where those at a natural peak would be able to be reduced to amino/nutrient soups and fed to those born, and where there would be no such thing as "natural cause" death, since allowing one to live that long would be a drain of resources. This would be especially true if the population in question were also Infected: this is what I'm thinking about for my current campaign, in fact.

[Ravor]

Meh, just sell hunting rights and allow the wealthy to legally kill the SINless for a fee.

[Lok1 :)]

Ork overpopulation is not and probably never will be a problem. However, as far as your average human is concerned ork population is. Evolution, god, mana, whatever you want to call it made orks in a manner that they will maintain a steady population, just like every other species out their. Now your humanists out their would LOVE for ork overpopulation to be a viable threat, but the hard core reality of it is that most likely it won't ever be.
That said on a similar topic, orks aren’t humans. Anthropology has pretty much proven that the "races" we see in humanity really have no or very little actually baring on the kind of human produced, and that all the differences in behavior and cutler are all socially created. However, the awakening throws all these rolls out of the window. Orks, Trolls, Elfs, and Dwarfs are not human and should not behave the same way socially as toughs of other species. They should experience emotions in ways that simply aren’t "Human" because they just are not human. I'm tired of the portrayal of the goblinized races set as today’s ethnic groups because they shouldn't be "forehead aliens" cast by the way society sees them into a roll. They should be a whole different species, with a different set of reactions, but influenced just as much by the Society around it.
~Just my two Nyune~
Warning posts my be deluded by dyslexia, I'm not nearly uneducated or stupid as my posts make me out to be.

[tagz]

I'm also one of those that think orks & trolls are supposed to be reminiscent of today's minorities. Heck I've heard a good argument comparing techonomancers to homosexuals (ie: many are prejudiced against them, "outed" technomancers are at risk of being a hate target, you could be standing next to one and not even know it... etc, etc) Anyhow, I like it cause it lets people explore racism as a storytelling tool without having to drop 'N'-bombs and such.

Anyhow, as such, they are at risk to all the problems of those in poverty in inner cities: disease, drugs, crime (both victims of and perpetrators of), gang warfare, higher toxicity and pollution levels (lead paint anyone?), STDs, genetic disorders that treatment cannot be paid for, and the list goes on.

Poverty kills. If an ork has a litter of 5 or 6 and only half survive to see 30, how are they going to become overpopulated?

[PirateChef]

Ork overpopulation is not and probably never will be a problem. However, as far as your average human is concerned ork population is. Evolution, god, mana, whatever you want to call it made orks in a manner that they will maintain a steady population, just like every other species out their. Now your humanists out their would LOVE for ork overpopulation to be a viable threat, but the hard core reality of it is that most likely it won't ever be.
That said on a similar topic, orks aren’t humans. Anthropology has pretty much proven that the "races" we see in humanity really have no or very little actually baring on the kind of human produced, and that all the differences in behavior and cutler are all socially created. However, the awakening throws all these rolls out of the window. Orks, Trolls, Elfs, and Dwarfs are not human and should not behave the same way socially as toughs of other species. They should experience emotions in ways that simply aren’t "Human" because they just are not human. I'm tired of the portrayal of the goblinized races set as today’s ethnic groups because they shouldn't be "forehead aliens" cast by the way society sees them into a roll. They should be a whole different species, with a different set of reactions, but influenced just as much by the Society around it.
~Just my two Nyune~
Warning posts my be deluded by dyslexia, I'm not nearly uneducated or stupid as my posts make me out to be.

Actually, orks and trolls, and elves and dwarves are "human" in all the ways that matter. They are a subspecies, not a separate species. (We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. They are Homo Sapiens Something Else) The fact that interbreeding can occur proves this. So why should they react to the same basic stimuli any differently than any other human?

[Neraph]

Actually, orks and trolls, and elves and dwarves are "human" in all the ways that matter. They are a subspecies, not a separate species. (We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. They are Homo Sapiens Something Else) The fact that interbreeding can occur proves this. So why should they react to the same basic stimuli any differently than any other human?

I agree, mainly because the rules of this game completely align with this. Humans as we know them are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, orks are Homo Sapiens Robustus, trolls are Homo Sapiens Ingentis, et cetera. It is entirely possible that the above poster has played a little too much D&D, as the different races are in fact separate races alltogether.

I also should point out that "overpopulation" is a lie: it is always a problem with food transportation, not overpopulation. In the late 90's, it was found that the entire population of the world could fit into the state of Texas with the population density of New Jersey, and recently it was found that the entire population of the world could fit into Jackson County (IIRC, it was in the far north east), Florida... Twice. It is also well known that the entire (human) population of the earth can all go drown in Loch Ness at the exact same time. So there is in fact no such thing as "overpopulation," only a lack of available resources. If it's overpopulated where you are - move.

[Fuchs]

The game would be losing a lot if the different metahuman races were not human anymore. That a troll and a dwarf are just humans that look different (forehead aliens) and how the world reacts to that is an important theme of Shadowrun.

[Weaver95]

The game would be losing a lot if the different metahuman races were not human anymore. That a troll and a dwarf are just humans that look different (forehead aliens) and how the world reacts to that is an important theme of Shadowrun.

If anything, I think Shadowrun underestimates the reaction people would have if magic started working again. Do you really think the Department of Homeland security would tolerate the thought that someone could just conjure up an elemental and rip an engine off a plane in mid flight without anyone being able to stop it? Or political leaders having to wonder if someone in the crowd during election season was reading their minds?

I think the government would freak. They'd have a full on psychotic break, and start rounding up everyone with the Talent and consider permanent imprisonment and isolation.

[Cardul]

No need for secret plots

Just pass a few laws and regulations to "control" the situation.


The parents (of all meta types) are taxed based on the number of children they have after the first which doubles for each child after the second (got to pay for those social services (like using the sidewalk and breathing)).

Initially include an exception for multiple births on the first pregnancy, but gradually remove it over a few decades or so.


The Sinless are not citizens and there for are committing a crime if they became pregnant (attempted delinquency of a minor - attempted smuggling of a minor over national border - Tax evasion).
Being sinless and not on birth control is a felony.
Charges dropped for voluntarily termination and temporary sterilization.
All sinless are required to be on birth control (freely provided at no charge). Reversible for a "small" fee.


Birth control is mandatory for anyone under 21 (both sexes). That will cut a female Orc's childbearing years in half.


To go one step further, the birth control in the water is a good idea. Just require potential parents to pay a "small" fee and take a "Parenting Class" before they get a prescription for the antidote to the birth control drugs in the water.

Heck, you can even try some other things as well. Set up free hospices, but only for "Normal" humans. put taxes on the Elves, Dwarves, Orks,a dn Trolls for marrying and having children, use this money to offer free medical care
for normal human parents, important goods for normal humans right after marriage to set up home, a year paid vacation for the mother, and a copy of Brackhaven's Memoirs....

[PirateChef]

If anything, I think Shadowrun underestimates the reaction people would have if magic started working again. Do you really think the Department of Homeland security would tolerate the thought that someone could just conjure up an elemental and rip an engine off a plane in mid flight without anyone being able to stop it? Or political leaders having to wonder if someone in the crowd during election season was reading their minds?

I think the government would freak. They'd have a full on psychotic break, and start rounding up everyone with the Talent and consider permanent imprisonment and isolation.

I think something like that was attempted. Then they realized they were trying to round up people who could just conjure up an elemental and rip an engine off a plane in mid flight without anyone being able to stop it. The Awakened are more than capable of defending themselves.

Plus, the first real use of magic was to help establish the amerindian nations, which I assume offered refuge to any Awakened who wanted it.

[Ravor]

Only in the retcon version, in the original timeline the NAN didn't like white Mages anymore than they liked white mundanes.

[Lok1 :)]

I agree, mainly because the rules of this game completely align with this. Humans as we know them are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, orks are Homo Sapiens Robustus, trolls are Homo Sapiens Ingentis, et cetera. It is entirely possible that the above poster has played a little too much D&D, as the different races are in fact separate races alltogether.

I also should point out that "overpopulation" is a lie: it is always a problem with food transportation, not overpopulation. In the late 90's, it was found that the entire population of the world could fit into the state of Texas with the population density of New Jersey, and recently it was found that the entire population of the world could fit into Jackson County (IIRC, it was in the far north east), Florida... Twice. It is also well known that the entire (human) population of the earth can all go drown in Loch Ness at the exact same time. So there is in fact no such thing as "overpopulation," only a lack of available resources. If it's overpopulated where you are - move.

I beg to differ, yes Orks, Trolls, dwarfs, and dandelion eaters are subspeices of humanity. And are therfore have an equal stake to humanity as anyone else. But when it comes down to their nature, the nuts and bolts they are not the same of humanity. It makes very little sense for them to return to their baser forms in the awakening if all that changes is their body. I finder a better parallel to the Metahuman-human differation as to that of the man is to woman.
Yes wemon and men are both human, yes they both have equaly capacity for talent or culter influnce. Wemon and men both can be set into a unlimited amount of combinations. But their are some basic diffrences (non-biological) in the way they behave and reason.
The point hear being that if the metahuman varaitions are souly artifical then the story is a masked retelling of our curent condition. And in many ways it is a retelling, but the awakeing didn't just rejumble the sets in wich humans clasify themselfs. It braught into the mix a set of creatures that ARE diffrent from humanity, but still deserve the same treatment. Its just as hard a story to tell of the one that we already live in where we make-beleive that people are diffrent from us because of the color of their skin but its a wholl new ballgame when it comes to the sixth world.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I beg to differ, yes Orks, Trolls, dwarfs, and dandelion eaters are subspeices of humanity. And are therfore have an equal stake to humanity as anyone else. But when it comes down to their nature, the nuts and bolts they are not the same of humanity. It makes very little sense for them to return to their baser forms in the awakening if all that changes is their body. I finder a better parallel to the Metahuman-human differation as to that of the man is to woman.
Yes wemon and men are both human, yes they both have equaly capacity for talent or culter influnce. Wemon and men both can be set into a unlimited amount of combinations. But their are some basic diffrences (non-biological) in the way they behave and reason.
The point hear being that if the metahuman varaitions are souly artifical then the story is a masked retelling of our curent condition. And in many ways it is a retelling, but the awakeing didn't just rejumble the sets in wich humans clasify themselfs. It braught into the mix a set of creatures that ARE diffrent from humanity, but still deserve the same treatment. Its just as hard a story to tell of the one that we already live in where we make-beleive that people are diffrent from us because of the color of their skin but its a wholl new ballgame when it comes to the sixth world.

Metahuman Variations are solely artificial, and it is a masked re-telling of our current condition... That is indeed what it is all about...

Keep the Faith

[Bitten the Bug]

Hmm.. I've read somewhere in the books that magic triggered a set of genes/a set of genomes that couldn't be expressed until there was a high enough level of mana. Thus Homo Sapiens evolved into the awakened genetic variantions of humanity.
Thus the odd one out is in fact the purebred human, because he hasn't got anything that marks him as special in the eyes of what ever gods and goddesses he devoutly follows.
A hoary old chestnut I like to tell: If you want to see a purebred human, go to the zoo.

Odd data: Humans as we know them today, has jumbled DNA/scrap DNA, that the human molecularscientist has no idea what is for. Weird, eh?
Me?? I am counting down to 2011. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) With my luck, I turn into a mundane orc or a troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) If I am fortunate, then I get magic. Hey, a girl can dream, eh?

I know I am a bit slow on the uptake when it comes to certain things, like the color of a person's skin, but I never thought of orcs= hispanics, trolls= american/indian. Maybe it is because I am not american and do not see it as such. I probably should have, but I didn't.

My two nuyen. So far. Most of what I wanted to say, has already been said. Other than ork life is hard, harsh and brutal. You compete from you are born until you die. If 1-2 child from each litter survives, I'd be surprised. And as a mom myself, I know how hard it is to take care of infants and toddlers, tweenies and teens.. You bet I'd make sure that I do not get pregnant again and again and again. It is hard on the body!

[pbangarth]

Actually, orks and trolls, and elves and dwarves are "human" in all the ways that matter. They are a subspecies, not a separate species. (We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. They are Homo Sapiens Something Else) The fact that interbreeding can occur proves this. So why should they react to the same basic stimuli any differently than any other human?

I concur with you, for the most part. Just to qualify your position a bit, though, differences can be magnified by social conditions, training, even (un)natural selection. Take for example, the situation of a two-year old child running, squealing and waving her hands. Now, have her observed by two dogs, a Labrador Retriever and a Border Collie (I won't pick on the obvious breed everybody picks on). Same species, inter-breedable, but the responses to the stimulus will be very different, even if the individuals receive the same basic training.

And I concur with you for the most part because as you will leap to say, people are not dogs.

[Screaming Eagle]

And I concur with you for the most part because as you will leap to say, people are not dogs.

This made me laugh... mostly because people are dogs. And that is a minor slight on dogs, not people.

SELF - is cynic - Y/N? Y

[Lok1 :)]

Wow, beat me to the punch, I was guna use the dog annology.

[BlueMax]

Wow, beat me to the punch, I was guna use the dog annology.

<points to the IC symbol>

And your are all still wrong. Dogs came about and have been bred for millennia. Trogs, fairies and dopey's kind are a new byproduct of the gift of magic. If we purge those who have been cursed, its a small price to pay for a better society.

Unless, perhaps your going to tell me Barghasts have always been around?

The White Dove.

/The bar guests though
//you can never get rid of them