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> Shadowrun 4th Edition!, 2007 is right around the corner
Shadow
post Jan 29 2004, 01:09 AM
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I was reading the SR3 book today and I read the page, 'The Developers say'. At the end they said,

"9 years is a long time, yet we are confident we just set Shadowrun up for another 9 years... see you in 2007!"

I am sure it was totally Whimsical but I have to ask, is FanPro planning a 4th edition, ever? I think we all agree there are some things that could be changed or clarified. But does SR3 need a whole new edition? Personally, I don't think so. I think they should use reprints as an opportunity to add in clarification, or revise rules. Stick the errata in everytime the book prints and always look for new things to change. That may not be economical, as the artical hinted at in the back of SR3, you need a new edition to make money. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 29 2004, 01:15 AM
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I think they have too much planned for third edition for several more years to switch even by 2010. If the sourcebooks keep selling then another edition won't be seen as "more" profitable.
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GoldenAri
post Jan 29 2004, 01:24 AM
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I disagree. It's even worse in my opinion that they stick the errata into the newer editions. I always get my books as soon as they come out. It's impractical for me to after a year or so buy the exact same book with just a few minor corrections. It is good for those that wait I admit, but whatever. Not that I mind greatly, and I think it's better than nothing.

[EDIT]People misunderstand my comment. I think it's great that they put out the erratas for free (I've got a organizer filled with them) and that they keep going back and revise the erratas. I think it's great that they include the errata in each new printing. What I was trying to say (all be it very poorly) was that I think that getting an errata after errata should not make someone think that there is no reason to have a 4th edition. Also, constantly putting revised version of the same book can lead to confusion as one persons book says one thing and another persons book says another (though if your keeping up with the erratas this shouldn't be a problem). I hope this clarifies my position a little better. I realize what I wrote somewhat contradicts the purpose of what I was saying, but the edit is closer to what I had initially intended[/EDIT]


How long was it between SR2 and SR3? I'm in a lab right now so I don't have my stuff.
[EDIT] 9 years...Oh...right...god I'm an idiot.[/EDIT]

Maybe 2007 isn't a bad target date. 3 more years. I'd be willing to buy a new core book by then. Plenty of time to moderize shadowrun's story and system.

This of course begs the question "What would SR4 look like?"

BP in the core rule?
Becks in the companion?
Cyberlimbs that make sense?
Stats having a greater impact on skills?
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Fortune
post Jan 29 2004, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE (GoldenAri)
How long was it between SR2 and SR3?

9 years, as Shadow quoted in the first post. ;)
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Adam
post Jan 29 2004, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE
I disagree.  It's even worse in my opinion that they stick the errata into the newer editions.  I always get my books as soon as they come out.  It's impractical for me to after a year or so buy the exact same book with just a few minor corrections.

Nobody expects you to. The errata is released for free online, and you can do with it what you wish - ignore it, print it out, write it in the margins of your books, whatever.

Would you prefer that FanPro didn't correct new printings as they were released?
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Domino
post Jan 29 2004, 02:49 AM
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I'd prefer they didn't make the errors in the first place but since I have trouble spelling my own name I can't complain. ;)
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LoseAsDirected
post Jan 29 2004, 02:50 AM
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Hey, don't mind him, Adam.

I'm sure he's among the minority in regards to this issue.. I know that I, for one, am grateful that FanPro provides errata for confusing rules and misprints. The fact that they can be downloaded for free makes is that much better.

At least they haven't made SR3.5 yet.. :please:
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 29 2004, 03:35 AM
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They should make SR 3.125 or 3.0625. That way we can let people know our commitment to infinite incremental revisions :D

~J
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Adam
post Jan 29 2004, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (LoseAsDirected)
Hey, don't mind him, Adam.

Oh, don't get me wrong; I'm not upset or annoyed, more confused. :)
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Spookymonster
post Jan 29 2004, 04:11 AM
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I'd love to see streamlined design rules. As it stands now, gun and vehicle design follows one set of rules, spell design follows another, lifestyle follows a third, Skillsofts a fourth, and so on. Every sourcebook seems to want to reinvent the wheel. IMHO, this creates an obstacle for new players learning the game, as well as old players wanting to GM.

While we're at it, apply the standardized design rules to cyberlimb creation and get rid of the current half-assed design rules.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 29 2004, 04:33 AM
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Ewww... standardized design rules? Just... ewww...
Magic design for magic. Vehicle design for vehicles. Etc. Combining them can only end in grief.

~J
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Diesel
post Jan 29 2004, 04:37 AM
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Ditto. How /would/ you standardize such massively different fields?
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Aristotle
post Jan 29 2004, 04:40 AM
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But I was really hoping for a High Lifestyle with Rigger Controls that can sustain Force 10 spells. Can I squeeze all of that into a pistol, or will I have to go SMG?

er ... sorry, It's been a long day.
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Iggy
post Jan 29 2004, 05:09 AM
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All I want to see is rules for computers that make sense. For the love of god computers get cheaper and faster as time goes by. Millions of Nuyen for the top of the line deck with all the goodies? They should figure out a better way to limit the Decker other than money.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 29 2004, 05:15 AM
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The top price for the top-of-the-line deck is exactly what it should be. The Fairlight Excalibur is like heavy metal in a man-portable package. It is a tiny god.

~J
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hp_warcraft
post Jan 29 2004, 05:26 AM
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The component cost should be negligible - it's the programming cost that is the problem. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but in order to create an Excalibur Fairlight someone with the Computer (Programming) Skill of 12 has to write the code.
Of course, if all Fairlights have the same factory MPCP then it is a one time cost for the company, but Programming 12 - Ouch!
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 29 2004, 05:32 AM
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Negligible component cost? Eheh...

~J
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nezumi
post Jan 29 2004, 02:04 PM
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I'll disagree with you, hp. Check out the cost of video cards, as a nice example. The code in video cards is negligible. You're paying for R&D, processors, fans... And the more power you put into your box, the more hardware you need to support it. The difference between a server and a laptop is far more than just the OS.
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Spookymonster
post Jan 29 2004, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Diesel)
Ditto. How /would/ you standardize such massively different fields?

Maybe something like build points?

Start with a set of base container objects with BP ratings (e.g., a car chassis has 200BP, a Severe drain spell has 75BP, a low lifestyle would have 50BP, a basic activesoft has 100BP, a heavy pistol would have 150BP, etc). Each modification would have a cost in build points and nuyen. Some are flat costs(burst fire capable: 15BP), others are percentages (Illusion class spells: 25% base BP). To fit more things into the base container, you'll need to accept modifications with limitations (one-shot activesoft: -50% base BP), or pay more nuyen to get the BP cost reduced.

Final nuyen cost is equal to base container object cost plus all modification costs, maybe even give a discount if you didn't use all your available BPs (still have 20BPs left over for your lifestyle because you cheaped-out on security? Take 10% off the cost).

Oh well... just an idea.
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LoseAsDirected
post Jan 29 2004, 04:02 PM
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Let us not forget that cyberdecks =/= cyberterminals in the direct sense..

A good cyberterminal will only run a few thousand nuyen, and that's about standard.. You get get a Desktop PC for cheap as well..

Remember, cyberdecks are HARDLY standard off-the-shelf-at-the-local-Gateway terminals.. They're restricted as all hell, and sometimes just down right fraggin' illegal.. Besides, what self respecting Decker has an off-the-shelf deck? I just wish it was easier (and better defined) to start your decker with a custom made deck at character generation..

The same goes for programs.. A Decker can create a nice program for virtually no cred during a few weeks of downtime, and possibly even make a copy of it and try to sell it off.. In my games, Deckers tend to be either stinking fraggin' rich, or so lazy that they just barely manage to pay the bills (regardless of relative skill level).

And why the frag are programs so damn huge? Seriously, why should a data file that is nothing more than a glorified .doc+.vid be so damn huge? I usually make datafiles (even paydata) rather small.. I can almost understand the size of actual programs, since they have to operate on a 3D level in a virtual world, but does every choice bit of paydata have to be comparable to an Attack program (as far as Mp size goes)?

And has anyone figured out just how large an Mp is? Sure, it's a million pulses.. But how large is a pulse? I understand the use of a generic term like Mp to keep things simple, but face it.. We all know that the deckers in every group are the biggest computer nerds around, and they want to know just how large an Mp is.. My best explanation so far is that a single pulse is roughly a MB, making a Mp about million MBs... That seems to satisfy their first question, but then they always ring in with complaints about how even a highly complex program shouldn't be more than 100GB, at most (and that's REALLY pushing it into the far ends of technology).. Sure, ASIST is complex and all, but is it really THAT much more advanced than what we're working with now?

Now, I understand that most of the questions of that nature arise from my own explanation (Mp = 1 million MB), so it's not exactly a problem with canon material, but I'd really like some sort of canon explanation (even half-assed) for just how large an Mp is compared to our current storage devices.

Anyway, that's my 2.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 29 2004, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (LoseAsDirected)
And has anyone figured out just how large an Mp is? Sure, it's a million pulses.. But how large is a pulse? I understand the use of a generic term like Mp to keep things simple, but face it.. We all know that the deckers in every group are the biggest computer nerds around, and they want to know just how large an Mp is..

Depending on how you go about finding it out, you can come up with numbers between 1Mb and 1x10^27 bytes. There's absolutely no way you can ever be sure, and it's not supposed to be comparable anyway.

QUOTE
That seems to satisfy their first question, but then they always ring in with complaints about how even a highly complex program shouldn't be more than 100GB, at most (and that's REALLY pushing it into the far ends of technology)..

Take the first word processing program released. Compare the size of it to Word 2003. Create a 2nd power function based on those two figures, where y stands for program size, starting from year x1 (year of 1st word processing program release) to x2 (2003) and then solve for Y at x=2063.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll find thousands of posts worth of discussion about this issue if you'll bother to search the old forums. Haven't seen the topic around in a while, probably because realization of futility has finally hit home.
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BlackSmith
post Jan 29 2004, 04:15 PM
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one word about your all generalization:
Yk!

with your system there is no difference in characters, after all.
they all got the same amount of goodies in every damn situation without reflection about his choices he makes while distrubting those points.

currently; i take top attribs, i CAN have cheaper skills but money less and less magic.
if i take lots of money it is straight compared how much and what class of EQ i get.
with that system you just pay some magial all around karma that can give you anything regaldes what ELSE you take. like bad alternative for Becs karma system, that itself is IMO a bad home-brew version of PB system.

PB is damn good system except the money-for-PB rate is not logical in SC.


~

i hope they make SR4.

1. the grenade timing rules suck.
last game session we were having this catch-the-grenade-and-it-toss-it-back-fragging-many-times for four grenades, and one of the was thrown sixs (6) times back and fort.

we simply ruled that you can make grenades that go off after hard enough hit, thus you can't throw it back unless you cast the grenade against something soft (water, sofa, thick snow..)

2. explosive rules suck big time.
hear out this. you go to store and take 300gram's of C-4 and plant it all inside a plane. pull the detonator and -BANG- there is no plane anymore.
in SR; take 9kg's C-12, plant it in ON the plane, hit the detonator and -puff- there is MAX ~36 meters hole in the plane, BUT anything beond that radius is unharmed.
and as i have figured from the rules, C-12 should be three(3) times stronger than C-4.

also there is no difference where you plant the charge in SR, but in RL you need one quarter of the amount of surface charge, if you can plant the charge inside of the target.
one quarter.
(yes you would need roughly 1,2kg's C-4 to blow that same plane from out side)

what about puting those explosive rules to this form.
damage code drops with one for each distance multiplier from the detonation (now the damage power drops but the code is same).
thus offensive grenade (15S) has damage code 15S inside of 15m radius, after that it drops 15M and lastly it drops to 15L thus grenade would have potential kill radius much more closer to RL.
standing 16m from frag grenade and being unscratzed is a jocke for all those who has ever thrown or used live grenade.

3. Essence cost for cyberware should be more depend what other stuff you have installed and what the ware realy does. having a Math SPU 3 and separate smart2 ballistic calculator sounds ricidicolous. specialy if you got farlight inside of your head also. and why amount of head memory has different essence cost? why not just put access point inside of your brain and locate the actual memory e.g. inside of your nose?
i have undestod that the essence cost represent the drift from humanity to machine. having a finger tip comaprement should IMO have no essence cost. anyone can loose their finger and get a some piece of goo to replace it, but their no less human. even if the finger would be hollow and you would store your pills in there, i dont feel that you would be any less human.
BUT as soon as the finger starts to twist and it can reshape itself in to a knife and it can transfer you consiousness to a virtual network... then we are talking about drift from human to a machine.
also if you fall now, broke your leg and see a doctor they are likely to put metal plates inside of you. are you less human then? no.
even if they would replace majority of your bones to titan? no, because there as much of human as anyone else but they have amusing time in airports.

and definently YES for one month more for publishing timeline for killing all the bugs. errata is always a big sign of unfinished work.

and definenty one last YES for SR4.
my book has lost 43 pages and the rest is also falling away rapidly. i need a new one.
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Deep Blue
post Jan 29 2004, 04:15 PM
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I was always under the impression that there is -no- comparisson between an MP and a MB/GB, because data storage in 2056+ is based entirely on holographic, light-based storage media -- nevertheless, for the sake of argument, the easiest way to figure out a conversion between the two would be to consider how much space it takes to record a second of trideo in MP (it's written somewhere) and then figure out how many megs or gigs it takes to record an equivalent second of 3D video.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 29 2004, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Deep Blue)
how many megs or gigs it takes to record an equivalent second of 3D video.

How accurate do you want that video to be? With what kind of packing if any? You'll get results that vary roughly within the limits that I put forth.

This method (video size) has been attempted before, and it doesn't work. It can't work, and it won't work. Stop trying. :P

QUOTE (BlackSmith)
Yk!

Forgive my fellow Finn here, what he's trying to say is: "Yuck!"

[Edit]YAY! I'm finally running! :newbie:[/Edit]
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nezumi
post Jan 29 2004, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (Deep Blue)
I was always under the impression that there is -no- comparisson between an MP and a MB/GB, because data storage in 2056+ is based entirely on holographic, light-based storage media -- nevertheless, for the sake of argument, the easiest way to figure out a conversion between the two would be to consider how much space it takes to record a second of trideo in MP (it's written somewhere) and then figure out how many megs or gigs it takes to record an equivalent second of 3D video.

The medium its being saved in is irrelevant. You could have a MB of data carved into rock, if you really wanted. MB, GB etc. is based off of the number of Bytes, which is based off of how many sets of 1's and 0's you have. As long as they're still in binary, they're still comparable (hypothetically). That said, perhaps with the crash they changed from Binary to something else, but that's just speculation.

I would NOT say that a Pulse = 1 MB, because saying a program 'shouldn't be more than 100GB' is based off of what you see today. Remember what Reverend Gates said (prepare for a misquote), no one should ever need more than 128KB of memory. It may have been 256, but it was in KB. Memory is going up exponentially, not linearly. I have no question that in 60 years, we'll have a 128GB bus speed between our processor and our hard drive. That means 128GB EACH TICK OF THE PROCESSOR (far, far less than a second).

Suffice to say, no, they neglect totally any real 'system' for how their memory works. That said, even text will seem 'bigger' now. Your standard word document starts at 23KB and goes up from there, however a text document can be measured in bytes. A Word2060 doc will probably start in the MB or GB range, just because they can. All sorts of extras are in there, maybe the 'mouse over and it says the word' stuff, or all of the extra tags that are hidden away. It's not unacceptable to say a standard document 60 years in the future may be 60+GB, just because it's crammed with all sorts of extras (however, leaving a little text file, or even the ACL, might be so small it'll simply say '1 pulse' for the sake of rounding). Maybe things also seem 'bigger' because we've moved from 32bit systems to 256 or 512 bit systems; a huge jump that multiplies how big your text files are many times over, even if you don't need all of those extra bits.
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