Cyberware scanners again, sorry it's just a quick question(s) this time. Options

[OneTrikPony]

I shall not gripe about the MM wave thing this time. Please read this.

"Cyberware Scanners" SR4A pp. 262
"Millimeter wave scans can detect any non-biological item by its shape and composition,
assuming the item is listed in the device’s database. If the threshold is
reached, the scanner detects the item/implant and notes its general locations
and type; additional hits provide more detail (function, model,
grade, etc.)."

"bolded" by OTP

my specific concern is the bolded part "assuming the item is listed in the device’s database." What are the guidelines on determining if the device is listed in the database?

I can't find any specific info on how this might be handled. My first thought was that what's in the database of the device might be contingent on the Availability of the item or the Rating of the device. (where a higher Availability would indicate the comparitive rarity or obscurity of the item and the rating of the scanner would indicate the size of the database.)

My next thought was: everything is wireless and matrix enabled so why would the scanner even have a database. Even a rating 1 scanner could hook up to a "Jane's" type catalogue of "everything cyber from 2O15 to current" so there's no reason why anything available to runners wouldn't be in the scanners database.

How do you play this at your table?

[Jaid]

personal opinion: if they bought it off-the-shelf, it's probably in there. if they built it themselves from scrap bits of metal they found in a junkyard, not in there. if it's a weapon specifically designed to be broken into multiple pieces and be reassembled later, probably not in the database when in broken apart form (unless it's a really nice one). if it was in one piece though, i assume the system would probably consider it close enough to being some other gun to set off the alarm.

(in general, the default assumption imo is that a given object is in the database, unless there is a good reason for it not to be; custom job designed and built for 1 specific gun, hand-made with hand tools, specifically designed to be non-detectable, etc)

[LurkerOutThere]

Things to ask about cyberware scanners:

A) How badly do you want your non magical characters to be screwed.

If the answer to A is "a lot" then it correctly identifies anything it detects perfectly and every time, reads a serial number and tries to see if it's licensed or not.

Then again i'm gathering from the "A Vignette" thread that my take on cyberware is a lot more ubiquitous then other people might feel it is.

[SCARed]

and what about cyberware? standard-ware surely is. alphaware: maybee. but if we move up to beta or even delta, things start to get worse, IMHO. unless it's a real good scanner with a real good DB and maybe some kind agent to look for "similar" stuff as well to give at least possible answers to what is hidden inside that scaring monstertroll at the front door.

[StealthSigma]

and what about cyberware? standard-ware surely is. alphaware: maybee. but if we move up to beta or even delta, things start to get worse, IMHO. unless it's a real good scanner with a real good DB and maybe some kind agent to look for "similar" stuff as well to give at least possible answers to what is hidden inside that scaring monstertroll at the front door.

Basically, anything listed in the books is probably going to be in there, and that goes double for anything with an R or F next to its availability.

I would find it odd if the sensor detects the presence of cyberware, can't identify it, and doesn't notify the people monitoring the station. Then the checkpoint team would decide to detain you to at least find out what you have in you if they can't tell based on the readouts they would be given from the device.

[KCKitsune]

My question is how would it be able to distinguish between things like a commlink in a cyber limb and the processors needed to run the limb itself.

Also, if you have a RADAR sensor can it have (and use) the same database? I mean here is the the text from Augmentation page 37:

It can be used to detect weapons and cyberware on a person in the same way as millimeter wave radar (p. 255, SR4).

Finally, and this is off topic (and maybe a little bit on), but I don't want to start a new thread for it: Can you add Hardening to cyberlimbs? I was thinking that since HERF guns can mess with optical computers and EMP can mess with your cyber commlink's signal, that adding hardening to your cyberlimb is a good idea... since it is also cheap.

If hardening can be added does it "blur" the interior of cyberlimb because the Hardening is designed to protect the cyberlimb from focused radiation (like that from a HERF gun).

[OneTrikPony]

My question is how would it be able to distinguish between things like a commlink in a cyber limb and the processors needed to run the limb itself.

Also, if you have a RADAR sensor can it have (and use) the same database? I mean here is the the text from Augmentation page 37:



Finally, and this is off topic (and maybe a little bit on), but I don't want to start a new thread for it: Can you add Hardening to cyberlimbs? I was thinking that since HERF guns can mess with optical computers and EMP can mess with your cyber commlink's signal, that adding hardening to your cyberlimb is a good idea... since it is also cheap.

If hardening can be added does it "blur" the interior of cyberlimb because the Hardening is designed to protect the cyberlimb from focused radiation (like that from a HERF gun).

All EXCELENT questions.

I have the answer to the first question tho. Additional successes. by which i mean that a single success against the threshold identifies the presence of cyber additional successes identify "function, model, grade" so probably two successes against the threshold will identify a comlink vs a limb processor.
A thought though; does a single hit find all of the standard ware in your body? Would a single hit identify all of the built in devices in a synthetic limb or just the limb?

If the cyber database is software you can connect to it on line or download it to your comlink so definitly (IMO) the Radar sensor can itentify cyber. The Idea of doing that at 150 meters is scary tho So I'd rule that it only works at the (rediculously long) 40 meter range of the scanner.

While we're on the subject of hardening.

Sr4a pp. 264
Wi-Fi negAtiOn
Wi-fi-inhibiting paint and wallpaper are commonly used to prevent
an internal wireless network from leaking outside of a building—and
to prevent intruders from extending their own networks inside. Wi-fi
negation schemes are treated like jammers (p. 329); any Signal rating
less than the negating system’s rating cannot extend past the boundary.

What is there to stop a character from simply painting or papering himself with this? Wi-Fi inibiting paint = instant cyber invisability and we're back to the good ole days of SR3 where a mage or doc had to identify all your ware. :cyber
for a cleaner solution simply include it as a layer underneath the ruthenium polimer of you full body level 3 Dermal Sheath or plate.

About the database tho. The mechanics allready use ware Grade to set the threshold for detection so i don't think that would double as the determinate for the database.

Asside from being really poorly writen what pisses me off about this gear is it's too damn cheap realative to the massive effect it has on the game world. At 450Â¥ for rating six you have to start argueing "Why not" why wouldn't you be scanned every time you get on a city bus or subway? Why wouldn't every mall security officer have this at even just rating 2. Hell it can run independantly. It doesn't even need active opperaton by RAW any type of guard could just wander around and get a ping every time he gets within 40 METERS of cyber with an R or F rating.

thanks for all the replies so far (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DarkLloyd]

One thing you seem to be missing, Pony, is that the Milimeter wave radar scanner is RADAR.

You dont need the Wi-fi paint. Flesh isn't enough to stop it but when ever it hits something solid like cyber it bounces back to the reciever and forms the picture for the scan.
It CANNOT see into a cyber limb. Or for that matter a cyber torso.

Best thing for non limbed cyber; get a rating 6 fake SIN and rating 6 fake licences for the ware. Not cheap but not that hard to get. Don't hide it at all, or hide it in plain sight.

[DireRadiant]

If the roll fails the item is not in the database. If the roll succeeds it is.

Scanner scans, it rolls dice. If it meets threshold the item was in the database and is identified. If the roll fails, the item was not in the database.

The bit about the item database is the "fluff" post rationalization for why the scan succeeded or failed for any particular scan.

Instead of writing out a list to check against the PC actual cyberware, we roll dice instead.

Of course, it might be fun to write out the item database for each and every cyberware scanner your PC will encounter and work it out that way.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Also, if you have a RADAR sensor can it have (and use) the same database?

The (Ultrawideband) Radar Sensor is a Vision Mode - you can use it to make Perception Tests and see thoese items. Get a Sensor Soft.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Asside from being really poorly writen what pisses me off about this gear is it's too damn cheap realative to the massive effect it has on the game world. At 450Â¥ for rating six you have to start argueing "Why not" why wouldn't you be scanned every time you get on a city bus or subway? Why wouldn't every mall security officer have this at even just rating 2. Hell it can run independantly. It doesn't even need active opperaton by RAW any type of guard could just wander around and get a ping every time he gets within 40 METERS of cyber with an R or F rating.

thanks for all the replies so far (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Just a note, but please refer to the description of the equipment you are referencing... the maximum range of effect for the Cyberware scanner (Regardless of actual rating) is only 15 Meters... not 40, or even 150 as stated previously...

Just saying...

Keep the Faith

[Jaid]

What is there to stop a character from simply painting or papering himself with this? Wi-Fi inibiting paint = instant cyber invisability and we're back to the good ole days of SR3 where a mage or doc had to identify all your ware. :cyber
for a cleaner solution simply include it as a layer underneath the ruthenium polimer of you full body level 3 Dermal Sheath or plate.

i assume this is prevented by the fact that a great big human-shaped hole shows up in the scan, and the software probably would want to bring that to the operator's attention.

[Sponge]

my specific concern is the bolded part "assuming the item is listed in the device’s database." What are the guidelines on determining if the device is listed in the database?

I can't find any specific info on how this might be handled. My first thought was that what's in the database of the device might be contingent on the Availability of the item or the Rating of the device. (where a higher Availability would indicate the comparitive rarity or obscurity of the item and the rating of the scanner would indicate the size of the database.)

My next thought was: everything is wireless and matrix enabled so why would the scanner even have a database. Even a rating 1 scanner could hook up to a "Jane's" type catalogue of "everything cyber from 2O15 to current" so there's no reason why anything available to runners wouldn't be in the scanners database.

How do you play this at your table?

The way I see it, anything in the books is in the DB (although whether it can make a positive ID or not is the subject of the roll), unless the party's hacker has removed it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)