Shotgun/Axe vs. Spirits, Just a bit of Clarification Needed Options

[Hate-O-Tron]

The campaign I am currently playing is currently paused just before some combat with some materialized spirits. I have no idea what force they are, but being the melee-oriented Street Sam/Meat Shield, it's on me to keep them off the team mage-folk while they do their thing.

I'm just a little bit confused with the Immunity to Normal Weapons thing, though.

Does the AP value of my weapon count vs. the effective Hardened Armor they have before it's factored in if it is ignored or not?

Does a called shot to increase DV add to the effective DV vs. Hardened Armor or is it a situational DV modifier that doesn't count against Hardened Armor like burst fire/full auto?

For Example, if I take my 7P/ -1 AP Combat Axe to the head (-4 Dice/+4 DV) of a Force 5 Materialized Beast Spirit, do I even stand a chance of putting a dent in the thing?

[wizwyrm]

"If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter..." p295 20A
Under my interpretation of the rule, the modified DV = DV +/- situational modifiers.

So you roll to attack like normal, add called shot/burst fire/net hits/whatever other situational modifiers, and THEN compare to the Armor rating (-AP)

[Stahlseele]

Nope, Burst does not count.
Ammo does count though, and i think Net Hits do too, but i ain't sure on that front.

[Dragnar]

Basically everything apart from burst fire counts, so yes, you get to add net hits and your AP-mod before comparing with their armor rating.

Still, I'd advise to just let your mage handle the situation. Spirits are a lot easier to clip with magic.

[otakusensei]

Nope, Burst does not count.
Ammo does count though, and i think Net Hits do too, but i ain't sure on that front.

Can you site that?

[Stahlseele]

I am at work, i don't have access to my stuff.

[Dakka Dakka]

Add the net hits scored to the base Damage Value of the attack; this is
the modified Damage Value.

Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.

Since there is no mention that the +DV of a called shot does not count, it is calculated into the modified DV and thus helps overcoming the Immunity to Normal Weapons

So yes net hits and ammunition do count, but the number of bullets fired don't. SnS, APDS and Monowhips are effective against

[Stahlseele]

So do this:
Aimed Shot, SNS, long narrow burst.
In this order, you Up your Damage, then lower his Armor, then up your damage AGAIN and THEN you factor in Net-Hits.
should take care of most spirits. Alternatively, use APDS. If Called Shot does work with Burst Fire at all . .

[TheOOB]

SR4A pg. 152

"Narrow bursts cause more damage to the target. Increase the attack’s DV by +2. Note that
this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating."

The other narrow bursts all have similar text. Extra DV from burst fire does not help in penetrating armor. If you must use bursts against spirits use wide bursts, they might actually help.

Anyways, for mundanes fighting spirits, if you have it, use electrical attacks, stun baton, shock glove, tasers, stick-n-shock, whatever. electrical attacks half armor, which is a boon when trying to hurt spirits.

[Dakka Dakka]

The other narrow bursts all have similar text. Extra DV from burst fire does not help in penetrating armor. If you must use bursts against spirits use wide bursts, they might actually help.

If you can be reasonably sure that the attack itself will penetrate, narrow burst will make the spirit go down faster. In case of SnS (6S(e)) the armor of a spirit up to force 6 is always penetrated if the attack hits. In that case the +DV will help more. Otherwise TheOOB is right

[otakusensei]

Very clear. Had an opportunity at my last game to open up on a force 6 and a force 9 spirit with a drone mounted White Knight loaded with SnS. At first wide bursts worked well enough until the force 9 showed up. Primary combat was unable to beat the damage so I switched to a narrow burst from one of the drones. GM allowed it to boost the DV, but I'll let him know what the book says.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

... until the force 9 showed up. Primary combat was unable to beat the damage so I switched to a narrow burst from one of the drones. GM allowed it to boost the DV,

Allowed it because he didn't realize how badly he'd outclassed you? He's new at Fourth Edition?

We once had a mage on our team who would occasionally summon F9 spirits. He put pretty much all his build points and karma into doing so. He once had two of them simultaneously use earthquake (with a several-mile radius) and firestorm to destroy a complex. You just don't get into combat with these things. For an F9, you've got to beat 18 DV, and it gets 27 dice to soak. I'm not saying it can't be done, but...

[Dakka Dakka]

Allowed it because he didn't realize how badly he'd outclassed you? He's new at Fourth Edition?

We once had a mage on our team who would occasionally summon F9 spirits. He put pretty much all his build points and karma into doing so. He once had two of them simultaneously use earthquake (with a several-mile radius) and firestorm to destroy a complex. You just don't get into combat with these things. For an F9, you've got to beat 18 DV, and it gets 27 dice to soak. I'm not saying it can't be done, but...

Are you new to Fourth Edition as well? Do you understand the rules? No one can have two summoned spirits. You could however bind one of the Force 9 spirits before summoning the second one. No mean feat, that. Getting more hits than the Spirit which gets 18 dice and soaking up to 36 probably physical damage boxes.

Earthquake and Firestorm are Powers only available to Great Form Spirits. Does the Mage have that meta-magic technique?

Sure it gets 27 soak dice - but only against non-magic attacks without a negative AP. Magic attacks and such attacks that contain an allergen reduce the soak pool to 9.

[TheOOB]

I'm assuming binding and invoker where involved somewhere.

[Dakka Dakka]

Still that does not say how to cope with the drain. Invoking a Force 9 spirit causes Hits*3 drain on a Dice Pool of 18.

[twilite]

It can be done, but it's dangerous to try.

You can have a 0 point character with 18 dice of stat drain resistance using Restricted Gear twice to get Sustaining Foci (Health) 5 and the Increase Attribute spells for your drain stats. Add in a few levels of initiation for Centering, and then possibly a Centering Focus, and maybe a Free Spirit Drain Pact, plus Edge, and you can get a hefty drain pool, regularly getting 15+ hits.

Of course, the karma cost is huge, and it is a huge risk with the possibility, however unlikely, of getting up to 54 drain to resist, usually physical. Good way to accidentally retire your character, especially if the GM decides the Spirit uses its 9 Edge in the resistance test.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

I know that there has been argument elsewhere on the board, but in our game, unless you have gone out of your way to ingratiate yourself with spirits (or sprites for that matter). They do not like to be bound, and spend their first point of edge to resist binding.

So good luck surviving 27 dice re-rolling 6's, and all hits doubled. Potentially hundreds of damage. Of course he never encounters us with a spirit above 6, unless it is meant as a deus ex. When you see the lvl 10 spirit, it is the GMs subtle hint that this is something you should listen to.

For spirits force 6 and below, I have had excellent luck with a Echiro Hatamoto firing slugs(Dam 7P AP -1). Damage is high enough that with a few net successes they take real damage. Also had good luck with assault rifles. Our GM allows called shots against spirits to stage damage as well, and each stage increases the odds of bypassing the weapon immunity.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

My memory may be slightly faulty, but I'm fairly certain we were playing by the correct rules. Maybe the invoked F9 earth spirit was unbound, and the bound invoked fire spirit was an F7? And we sure the hell didn't play with a rule where spirits roll edge to resist binding!

To be clear, the character was a very narrow build, and dedicated to summoning. Almost useless otherwise. When we were finished with the campaign, the player laughed and said that he made his character so easy to kill, that he was surprised that he lived. Also, he joined the campaign partway through, and started with 100 karma to spend.

[Dakka Dakka]

My memory may be slightly faulty, but I'm fairly certain we were playing by the correct rules. Maybe the invoked F9 earth spirit was unbound, and the bound invoked fire spirit was an F7?

You can't invoke unbound spirits.

And we sure the hell didn't play with a rule where spirits roll edge to resist binding!

That is standard.

To be clear, the character was a very narrow build, and dedicated to summoning. Almost useless otherwise. When we were finished with the campaign, the player laughed and said that he made his character so easy to kill, that he was surprised that he lived. Also, he joined the campaign partway through, and started with 100 karma to spend.

That's what I thought, still it is risky.

[Karoline]

You know... the title of the thread makes me want a combination shotgun/axe now... maybe a melee hardened shotgun with an axe head on it...

[Dakka Dakka]

[nitpick]According to Arsenal, it would have to be an ax with a shotgun attached to it.[/nitpick] As a GM I wouldn't mind doing it the other way around.

And I want Vibrobayonets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

[Karoline]

[nitpick]According to Arsenal, it would have to be an ax with a shotgun attached to it.[/nitpick] As a GM I wouldn't mind doing it the other way around.

And I want Vibrobayonets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

Really? I didn't look at Arsenal at all, was just a thought. Would it be an axe with an under-barrel shotgun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[TheOOB]

[nitpick]And I want Vibrobayonets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

While cool, that is such a bad idea...almost as bad as chainsaw bayonets.

[X-Kalibur]

You know... the title of the thread makes me want a combination shotgun/axe now... maybe a melee hardened shotgun with an axe head on it...

It could be like a shotgun with a Halberd head under it... I like this idea, sounds badass. I think you should run with it.

[Dakka Dakka]

While cool, that is such a bad idea...almost as bad as chainsaw bayonets.

Style over substance. Otherwise use the survival knife or the cougar fineblade. Both are not supported by RAW AFAIK.