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DV8

Jan 29 2004, 04:31 PM

Post #26

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QUOTE (kevyn668)

Did you specify in your post that the runners in question had endorsement deals while still running the shadows?

While you had no way of knowing it, I was being facetious.

CoalHeart View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 04:32 PM Post #27
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757	A good true real pro shadowrunner has no reputation. No one's ever heard of him. He's just a name and a numbered swiss bankaccount. No one really knows his face, no one can point him out in a crowd. Yea yea sounds all fancy and superman. Basically waht I mean is that a good runner doesn't earn a reputation because he does his job so well no one has any clue he did it at all. No shots fired. Sabotaugue seems like a regular accident. Wetwork seems like natrual causes, and so on and so forth.

DV8

Jan 29 2004, 04:36 PM

Post #28

Moving Target

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QUOTE (CoalHeart)

A good true real pro shadowrunner has no reputation. No one's ever heard of him. He's just a name and a numbered swiss bankaccount. No one really knows his face, no one can point him out in a crowd.

No, not Swiss, they had to give up the anonymous bank accounts some years ago. Luxembourgh, or perhaps somewhere in the Caribean League. :)

Austere Emancipa...

Jan 29 2004, 04:39 PM

Post #29

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (DV8)

Sure, we know about gangsters and thugs, we know about special forces and secret service agents...but those are relatively well known concepts harking back from the days of old. [...] But shadowrunning is a relatively new concept.

At least as far as espionage is concerned, it's about as old as capitalism -- perhaps around 300 years old. I, at least, have always considered it common knowledge that certain firms do "operations", either themselves or through private operators, the main purpose of which is industrial espionage. Certainly industrial espionage itself happens all the time, and I think everybody knows it does?

Now if these guys started blowing shit up and murdering people in addition to doing just espionage, I think someone would have some sort of clue. Not much clue, but they don't need much clue, just enough to make it trendy.

Also, special operations units have done a lot of very shadowrun-ish operations in many places. Industrial sabotage was very common at least in the late-WW2 France. If something like that started happening again, on a world-wide scale no less, people would very quickly start suspecting stuff. Not specific stuff, just stuff in general. They'll figure that someone must have done it, so they might as well start calling those special someones "shadowrunners".

I've always though of shadowrunners as the name medias have started using. It just feels so silly... I certainly wouldn't call myself a "shadowrunner" if I did that sort of thing.

QUOTE (CoalHeart)

Sabotaugue seems like a regular accident. Wetwork seems like natrual causes [...]

Perhaps to outsiders, perhaps for a while. But look at stuff like the death of Ron Brown -- even things that certainly are accidents will rouse loads of suspicion. If that kind of thing actually happened a lot, and they actually were murders, it wouldn't take long for people to get a clue.

They wouldn't be capable of proving anything, not if the job's well done. But they could suspect something. That's enough for movie-makers.

nezumi

Jan 29 2004, 04:46 PM

Post #30

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (DV8)

QUOTE

If Joe Shadowrunner wants to talk about the runs he did against Fuchi, who cares? Fuchi certainly doesn't.

That's the most preposterous thing I've heard all week. Of course Fuchi would care. Of course Fuchi would care. Not only Fuchi, but his former employer would care.

Yeah, that's my bad. I meant the corp that went under (and I think Fuchi bought it). That's my fault for forgetting names. A megacorp that's still doing well might complain, however one that's bankrupt and gone is a lot less likely to say much.

kevyn668

Jan 29 2004, 04:47 PM

Post #31

Runner

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QUOTE

CoalHeart Posted on Jan 29 2004, 04:32 PM
A good true real pro shadowrunner has no reputation. No one's ever heard of him. He's just a name and a numbered swiss bankaccount. No one really knows his face, no one can point him out in a crowd.

I thought it was a runner's rep that got him jobs...I guess it all depends on who knows your rep and what said rep is....

No one knows your face? Except your fixer(s), arms dealer, your bartender/bouncer buddy from your gang days, the rest of your teammates, a coupla Johnsons, the corp exec you "transfered" last year, your ex-significant other, the little old lady that owns the doss next to yours and feeds your cat while your "travelling for work", and the kid at the coner Stuffer that sells you your Llama Lights....Did I forget anyone? :D

This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jan 29 2004, 04:48 PM

Siege

Jan 29 2004, 04:54 PM

Post #32

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QUOTE (DV8)

QUOTE (Siege)

If you'd read the rest of my post, I drew parallels from today's society that glorifies or idolizes criminals at one end of the spectrum and elite groups at the other.

You still don't seem to get the core of my hypothesis. You keep comparing modern day society, and what we know to society in 2060, in which corporations and influentials would have radically more sophisticated methods of keeping things a secret and spindoctoring those bits of information that would leak out.

How do you know that we don't have things like these going on today? Perhaps the world around us is far more pittiful than we think, and it's just the success of governmental and corporate spindoctors that keep us docile. We wouldn't know this because all the information we'd need to put together that dissociated knowledge is controlled by those who are bent on preventing us from knowing.

Sure, we know about gangsters and thugs, we know about special forces and secret service agents...but those are relatively well known concepts harking back from the days of old. In order to cover something like that up to the point where people couldn't imagine it, we'd have to build a time machine and erase those steps from the memory of our forefathers, it should be erased from the pages of history books.

But shadowrunning is a relatively new concept. Still pretty undefined, still mallable, and has only been around for the last, say 20 years. If the corporations who started out hiring shadowrunners had thought about it before hand, they'd have kept this sort of shit a secret. A select group of individuals would be in the know, while others would be kept out of the loop to ensure secrecy.

How did other corps started noticing? They were they target of a repetition of attacks that bore the same mark. They pieced two and two together because they had undoctored information to analyse. Slowly that information trickles down into the shadows, to those few people that make up the shadow-community. A few fixers, a few streetdoctors, a few people acting as runners, and hey presto, you've got a shadow community in which all parties involved keep the truth from the masses. An unspoken agreement that if this should ever see the light of day it wouldn't be beneficial to any of them.

I'm a little confused as to the core of your hypothesis, but I'll take a stab at what I think you're arguing.

In today's society, trends and fads manifest themselves almost overnight. Popular media can bombard us with images and sounds nigh-constantly.

Now, imagine sim tech where you can "live the dream".

Shadowrunners aren't dissimilar from the fundamentals of spies working against governments (today) and even industrial espionage (again, today).

Do I believe an entire subculture could appear overnight, all embracing and endorsing the trade-marked phrase "shadowrunner?" Probably not. Common slang notwithstanding, I suppose. How did they get the moniker? Again, I don't know.

However, I think a mega-media company looking for the "next big thing" might take an idea from a corp security report that might have actually coined the phrase "shadowrunner", consequently spawning trid-trash like "Saphyre: Runner for Hire" and if it made any kind of reasonable profit, it would have spawned sequels and copycats. Look at CSI for pity's sake.

Shadowrunners combine aspects of spies and criminals and all sorts of exciting stories that middle-class suburbites would eat up by the truckload.

Fuchi may not like runners, but I've yet to see a company turn up it's collective nose at a potential profit center -- certainly for the marketing and entertainment people.

-Siege

DV8 View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 05:08 PM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 714 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .nl Member No.: 116	Guys, carry on the discussion. I'll be back to participate eagerly in about 12 hours. Thanks so far for the criticism and the discussion. I'll pick up where I left off in 12.

BitBasher View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 05:39 PM Post #34
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	For the general populace, a SR is absolutely nothing more than a hardcore criminal. There is no positive side whatsoever. The only interaction Joe Public would have was the negative effects of runs, Uncle Sec Guard wounded or killed, Aunt Research Scientist Kidnapped, Grandpa Ted's life work stolen. Shadowrunners do nothing but harm the security and comfort of the average citizen. There are virtually no positive effects. Also, virtually all media companies are owned by the megas. According to shadowbeat on TV shadowrunners are regularly portrayed as unshaven callous criminals that are caught by the "good guy" corp security teams defending the honor and integrity of the corp. See the episode descriptions in Shadowbeat. The vast, vast majority of the public will never see any media that's not corp provided, as half the world or better works for one of the big 10. Source, Corporate Shadowfiles. 50% of the earth's cashflow is controlled by the big 10. The shaowrunners will appear in media as the corps WANT them to appear in media. period. For corps to work efficiently they have to make it look like they are the good guys, that dont hire criminals and the other corps send the bad guy SR's against you. That's the entire point of spinning up the corp image to your employees.

Jpwoo View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 05:55 PM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 12-September 03 Member No.: 5,613	DV8 seems to be saying that any real shadowrun would be swept under the rug and locked down so tight that the concept of intercorporate espionage never reaches the mainstream thought process. That corporations have grown in power to such an extent that the media dynamic that we live in now has been altered to such a point that the mainstream media, including entertainment in all its popular forms are controlled by near omniscient corp gods. In the world we live in now, corporations are weak compared to our governments, the king of the hill today can take a fall and be next decades Bethlehem Steel. Public opinion is very important to corporations right now. So word of corporate espionage would blow up a company about as fast as shady deals blew up Enron. However we don't have a problem with the idea that our government has intelligence agencies spying on other governments, in fact we like it, it gives us a sense of security. In SR times, Governments are weak, and Corporations are the rocks that people look to for support. If you are a corporate wage slave you depend on your corp for support rather than the government. The corporations in SR are like giant disembodied nations largely functioning autonomously from oversight. So while I see corporations playing the reasonable denyabilty card lots, I don't see them bothering to go to the effort of stuffing the Djinn back in the bottle every time they hire a runner. Public opinion isn't as big a deal, one corporation defending itself covertly from another would be no different than our CIA or NSA protecting america now. Real Shadowrunners as celebrities? That is a doubtful prospect. The admitting you commit crimes factor is a big one there. The never working again for the rest of your life factor is big too. Faux Shadowrunners are celebrities? I am sure that this has a certain appeal but it doesn't dominate the culture. People will always be interested in crime, violence and sneaking around. That is why we play SR right? So I'm sure there will be someone out there cashing in on it. The only real life thing here that I can think of off hand is Micheal Mitkin (sp?) the famous hacker. He has managed to parley his illegal activities into a minor celebrity and makes a tidy living off his reputation. I wouldn't see a shadowrunner getting any more popular than this, a curiosity to those who are interested in such things. Certainly no shoe deals in their future.

Shadow View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 06:06 PM Post #36
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	I am with you DV, in a business where silence, security and discretion is an absolute imperative, I doubt there would be Shadowrun shoe endorsements.

Deep Blue View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 06:13 PM Post #37
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Between the electrons Member No.: 465	What about shadowrunners with Full-X simsense implants?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 06:45 PM Post #38
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	On a tangent, Deep Blue, Knight did not take Euphoria, it was an unnamed team of runners. ;) ~J

Req

Jan 29 2004, 06:52 PM

Post #39

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QUOTE

The only real life thing here that I can think of off hand is Micheal Mitkin... <snip>

Kevin Mitnick? Google is your friend.

Personally, I'd think there would be loads and loads of Fake Shadowrunners. All over the media, especially sims. I'd think that the studios owned by Ares would have loads of simchips with Plucky Shadowrunners Fighting the Evil Japanacorps, or whatever. It's too much of a moneymaker not to produce.

And, of course, real shadowrunners can't handle the emotive tracks, don't know how to act, don't look pretty for the camera, and wear too much armor to show the requisite amount of cleavage, so there's not so much work for them in the industry. :)

BitBasher View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 06:58 PM Post #40
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	Theyre called wannabees =) And yeah, according to the line in the Stree Sam theres numerious wannabees for every real runner, usually street/gang types.

Deep Blue

Jan 29 2004, 07:09 PM

Post #41

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QUOTE

real shadowrunners can't handle the emotive tracks

What about washed-up simsense stars that turn to shadowrunning to support their growing drug habits? What about shadowrunners who have good acting/intimidation/bluff/etc. skills (you know, the ones that impersonate and/or manipulate people to get past security)?

Req

Jan 29 2004, 07:37 PM

Post #42

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QUOTE

What about washed-up simsense stars that turn to shadowrunning to support their growing drug habits?

They're all dead, no questions asked. You don't learn how to be a ninja in acting school. :)

QUOTE

What about shadowrunners who have good acting/intimidation/bluff/etc. skills (you know, the ones that impersonate and/or manipulate people to get past security)?

If you've read SSG, you'll know that they talk about a very specific skill, being able to generate real emotion on demand, as Full-X simsense rigs record an emotive track as well. I tend to think that bluffing security isn't really in that same league. Convincing John Q Secguard that you belong there isn't the same as actually feeling it.

Dax View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 09:24 PM Post #43
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 194 Joined: 24-January 04 Member No.: 6,013	Well, I can partially see what DV8 is getting at. Actual Shadowrunners stepping into the media spotlight is absurd. Someone like that would be dead before he could cash his first paycheck. However, Shadowrunners being portrayed in the media, just like spies, gangs, organised crime, and other such groups are portrayed in our media, doesn't seem out of the question to me. With independant news groups such as News Net (which are not under the thumb of any mega corp I might add), would probably love to splash a story about runners across the media, and they probably did at one point. That's where the "bug" was planted so to speak. In the years since then the mass media has probably taken the whole concept and run with it, creating a whole gaggle of sim sence stars who play Shadowrunner roles beacuse it takes in the cred. Though here's another thought that everyone might want to chew on. Everything I've read about these "Shadow Sims", seems to indicate that they rarely seem to portray the Shadowrunners in a positive light. I belive this was brought up before by someone. So think about it. The Corps finance these projects to incite distrust in such individuals among their own loyal corporate citizens. Think of it as Corp propaganda taken to the next degree.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 09:29 PM Post #44
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	At least running has never gotten as silly as, say, Gingerbread Man. ~J

Rev View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 09:30 PM Post #45
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034	From what I recall of fairly early shadowrun 2 (which is when I started to play), sourcebooks like corporate shadowfiles indicated that the general population did not even know about/believe in the big ten megacorporations. The game had a bit of secret society grand conspiracy edge to it. I think it is clear that it has drifted away from that to a fairly large extent, but still a gm can get back to that without completely tossing everything in the new books.

JongWK View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 10:03 PM Post #46
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992	Check Shadowbeat's TV section. The shows that feature runners are sooo biased and unrealistic... THAT's how the public sees them. THAT's how Zoe saw them (maybe she was a little smarter and had a little more information, but still he was shocked as Hell when realizing what was it all about).

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 29 2004, 10:04 PM Post #47
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	This is a good point. A lot of people don't think of XYZ corporation being connected to Ares or Mitsuhama or Aztechnology, just like a lot of people nowadays don't think much in terms of the overall parent companies, just the applicable subsidiaries. ~J Edit: At this point I'm too tired to remember specific evidence backing it up, but my impression has always been that Joe Public knows about Shadowrunners. The bit that Joe Public misses is that runners don't run around hitting corps for no apparent reason, but are hired to do so by other corporations. That's the bit that would be the big secret.

RedmondLarry

Jan 29 2004, 10:06 PM

Post #48

Senior GM

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QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 29 2004, 05:47 AM)

If Joe Shadowrunner wants to talk about the runs he did against Fuchi, who cares? Fuchi certainly doesn't.

Good point nezumi. As the Shadowrun Timeline indicates, Fuchi went out of business in 2060. Any real or make-believe shadowrunner who wants to move into the public eye can make up stories about how some unnamed executive at Fuchi hired him to do some really exciting job against some unnamed corporation.

Who is to complain? Good point.

Adarael View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 12:19 AM Post #49
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566	Just as a side note, people keep saying 'Shadowrunning has been going on for about 30 years now, word's bound to get out.' Au contraire, mon frer... Shadowrunning has been going on for about 90 years, actually. 'The hell,' you say, 'That puts the first shadowrunners in the 1970s!' Well, yes, actually. The first real takeoff of industrial espionage (though not the FIRST cases of it by any means) took place in the 1970s, with the electronics revolution taking place in the US, Germany, and the Far East. This was the period of time when companies first realized that investing in a few private individuals to make off with trade secrets could really pay off - millions of millions of dollars in possible profits for an investment of only a few thousand. Does it really matter if a 'shadowrunner' is making off the some kind of 'new, experimental headware' or an 'independent industrial espionage expert' is making off with 'technical whitepapers and prototype hard drives'? No, no it doesn't - you're describing the same act, the same process and essentially the same result. Ergo, we know about shadowrunners now. We don't call them Shadowrunners, because, well... we're not trying to sell an RPG. In 2060, the business has exploded - a massive boom of these opportunities. I just don't see why, in 2060, people should know NOTHING about something they know about now. I mean, sure, with corporate media control, the average joe's gonna know less - but you can't erase the CONCEPT of it. Why? Well, quite frankly, there will always be people like US. People who are interested in the fantasy and the supposed glamour of the lifestyle.

Czar Eggbert View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 01:27 AM Post #50
Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 975	Just a quick insert since I don't have time to read everybodys posts. Shadowrunners have been the the fictional media of the SR universe since it's conception. Read "Never Deal With a Dragon", one of the first novels. At one point the main character, then a sariman, is watching the shadowrunner Trid show. If I remember correctly there are hints and innuendo about such shows in almost all the SR fiction. In fact newbie runners are chided on thinking that being a SR is a glamorous job like on the Trid. As to why would they be in popular fiction of the time, it's easy. You can not control the spread of information on the Matrix, just like you can't control the Internet. Someone eventually is gonna realize that they can make a buck off of a concept, and corporations, being all about the buck, or nuyen, will do it. That, and the fact that for every good SR, one that keeps his head down and his ops quiet, there are 50 who don't. The news can only be covered up so much. And why would Ares News Network cover up a SK fragup story? Or the other way around. -Czar Eggbert Commin' outa my Shell

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