[X] My Assistant

[Legs]

I was wanting to run a small heist and thought about having an armored car robbery.

But in the wireless world of 2072, is there even a reason for armored cars?

[The Dragon Girl]

... Yes, its called 'shadowrunners'

Amored cars can transport things like convicts, really expensive components, really expensive equipment, magical artifacts, really expensive people.. really anything someone is likely to want to attempt to steal from an unarmored car.

[wizwyrm]

just think of armored cars as a well insured truck/train/suborbital. anything you need to move, material-wise, that you want there to be less of a chance of being screwed with, put it in one of those bad boys

[Bugfoxmaster]

Double-post above, by the way.

An armored car/truck/train/gazebo or whatever would still be incredibly useful, as stated, for moving things you don't want lost. Additionally, with the great concealed armor, a car could also look normal. This would lead to a lot of need for legwork, I'd think...

[Paul]

Not everything valuable is cash: bonds, bearer bonds, stock, precious metals, gems and jewelry, artifacts, art, persons or creatures of interest. Magical artifacts or items. Spell formula. DNA or biosamples. The list is endless shot.

[kzt]

Pretty much every car in SR is as well armored as the Brinks truck.

[Fezig]

For as long as expensive/rare junk needs to move from A to B there will be armored transports. Essentially you'll be looking at a Citymaster for stats...

[rob]

Well, the roadmaster as described in Arsenal (vs. the earlier SR2 descriptions) is pretty much a straight up armored car, the citymaster a beefed up version thereof (and better for the money).

Obviously armored cars are useful for trying to deter heists (don't screw with me, I'm threatening); concealed armored vehicles are good for trying to actually prevent or evade heists.

So, if you don't want to get robbed, drive around in big armored vehicles and try to communicate that trying to rob this is a bad idea. If you know that someone is trying to rob you, specifically and directly, take measures that make it difficult to rob you (concealed trucks).

I disagree with KZT, since most of the cars in shadowrun will get ripped apart by a medium machinegun. I would suggest armored vehicles as 'survivable against MMGs' as a rule of thumb that jives well enough with civilian life.

[Paul]

Pretty much every car in SR is as well armored as the Brinks truck.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Could you clarify?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Could you clarify?

I was also wondering... because obviously this is not the case...

[Karoline]

I was also wondering... because obviously this is not the case...

What, you've never noticed that thick layer of armor on your Harley? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[3278]

I don't know about "as well armored as the Brinks truck," but if you do the math, taking hardened armor and average successes into account, it's pretty clear that something interesting is going on with the Armor values for SR4 vehicles.

[Karoline]

Vehicles have hardened armor? Weird, I don't remember that... then again I've never really had to deal much with vehicles being under attack, so never looked into it much.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Vehicles have hardened armor? Weird, I don't remember that... then again I've never really had to deal much with vehicles being under attack, so never looked into it much.

Vehicles just do not take stun... any damage not above the armor rating is ignored for all intents and purposes, it is not tracked...

[kzt]

I disagree with KZT, since most of the cars in shadowrun will get ripped apart by a medium machinegun. I would suggest armored vehicles as 'survivable against MMGs' as a rule of thumb that jives well enough with civilian life.

So will a brinks truck. They are rated to stop pistol rounds. A MMG firing AP will go right through them.

[3278]

Vehicles have hardened armor?

I don't know what to call it in SR4. The relevant passage is the one Tymeaus Jalynsfein was referring to:

Vehicle Damage
Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as normal, rolling Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does not exceed the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied.

And reading it that way, I realize I've been thinking it through the wrong way: you roll Body + Armor, and then if the DV thus modified isn't greater than the armor value, no damage is applied. That's rather worse than I realized.

[kzt]

I was also wondering... because obviously this is not the case...

Ok. A real world car won't stop pistol bullets. You can shoot at someone in a car with a common pistol (like a .38, or a .380, or a .45) and the bullet will, most of the time, go through the glass, or the door, or the trunk and mess up the day of whoever is in the car. Occasionally you'll hit a structural member or it will deflect off something, but most of the time being in a car when someone is shooting at you with a pistol isn't gong to work out well.

In the real world if you are shot at by a guy with an AR or an AK when in a car you are just screwed. The bullets will typically go completely though the car and kill you on the other side, they have no problem killing you inside the car.

In the real world most Brinks trucks (or generically, most armored transport trucks) are rated to stop pistol bullets. The glass crazes when it's shot and you can eventually shoot through it with enough shots. If you shoot at it with an assault rifle or larger you will go through the metal armor on the body.


In SR, if a couple are in a Honda Spirit subcompact the guy can just make funny faces at the thug shooting at him with a light pistol and keep making out with his girlfriend. Since the average subcompact in SR gets 14 dice and hence will get 5 successes PLUS 6 hardened armor, the thug needs an adjusted DV of 12 to hurt anyone inside. Essentially you can completely ignore him, as he's unlikely even be able to get 8 success.

Now, once he gets pissed off and comes back an hour later with his 4 drunk gang-banger friends with AK-97s, the driver can likely just ignore them to as they each empty a magazine with full bursts into his rocking and steamed up subcompact, as they need to get 6 successes to do anything to the car. Which means they need essentially all success on their rolls. So they, unlike the driver, will probably go away unsatisfied.

So the couple can likely drive some over the mounds of empty steel cartridge cases covering the road next to his undamaged car.

If a real world brinks truck faces 5 guys with who AKs empty their magazines on full auto into it they will blow out the windows at the very least and probably put dozens of 5.45 or 7.62mm holes in the doors and walls.

So you are safer transporting your money in a Honda Sprint than in a Brinks truck.

[Dahrken]

I'm not sure it works this way. My reading of the rules is a bit different. The Body of the car does not enter into the DV reduction, it comes AFTER, to soak the damages if the armor is overcome.

With the light pistol you need three net hits to overcome the 6 armor of the car. But there is nothing to eat your sucess, as the car is not evading. That is not very likely (this asks for 9 dices, a bit much for a ganger even adding bonuses for immobile and large target) and it sound a bit excessive., but if you manage to score them, the car now has to soak 7 damage boxes using 14 dices - chances are two will go through.

With the AK it becomes more brutal. With a 6 base damage value, if you manage to hit the car you sucessfully overcome it's armor of 6 and it has to soak the 7+ damage boxes. Also the extra dices to hit for a narrow burst are likely to add a few more extra hits, pushing up the damages to be soaked. Statistically 1 extra "to-hit" dice requires an extra dice of (Body+Armor) to soak.

Considering this the poor wheeled love palace is not as impervious as you made it, even if it's a bit over the top when using the lightest weapons.

[kzt]

I'm not sure it works this way. My reading of the rules is a bit different. The Body of the car does not enter into the DV reduction, it comes AFTER, to soak the damages if the armor is overcome.

Sadly, that isn't what the rules actually say:

"VEHICLE DAMAGE
Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as
normal, rolling Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does
not exceed the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied."

[Heath Robinson]

Damage and Passengers
Attacks must specifically target either the passengers (in which case, the vehicle is unaffected) or the vehicle itself (in which case, the passengers are not affected). The exceptions to this rule are ramming, full-automatic bursts and area-effect weapon attacks like grenades and rockets—these attacks affect both passengers and vehicles.

If an attack is made against passengers, make a normal Attack Test, but the passengers are always considered to be under Good Cover (though the Blind Fire modifier may apply to the attacker as the situation dictates.) Passengers attempting to defend an attack inside a vehicle suffer a –2 dice pool modifier to their dodge, since they are somewhat limited in movement. Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing. Called shots may be used to circumvent one armor or the other but not both.

In the case of ramming, full-auto and area-effect attacks, both passengers and vehicles resist the damage equally.

Doing the calculations, a reasonably competant ganger with a Light Pistol can damage people inside the Subcompact, though it's far smaller quantities than I'd like. If you have the dice, though, taking a -6 in order to negate the car's armour is generally a good expenditure.

I don't particularly think it's all that ridiculous for even cheap cars to be reasonably well armoured in 2070. Wasn't it meant to be a big thing that street violence was a lot more common? So a car that is practically bullet proof would sell better than one that isn't.

[kzt]

The extra few tons of armor tends to provide some negative effects on things like fuel efficiency, which they make a big deal about in Arsenal, and vehicle performance. A 6000 lb subcompact would be, um, interesting?

[kzt]

If you have the dice, though, taking a -6 in order to negate the car's armour is generally a good expenditure.

It works even better when Mr Lucky spends a point of edge to shoot the driver of the citymaster in the head.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[rob]

KZT - Two things, I think you're reading the vehicle rules differently. I read the same sentence as "vehicles resist damage in the same way as people or spirits with hardened armor," Not, "Vehicles resist damage first then compare this with the armor rating." That's my interpretation. If you use my example, it changes the dynamic a bit. A Honda Spirit, then, would be in danger of damage from any assault rifle (which will get through the hardened armor) and any light pistol firing EXplosive rounds.

Just like Dakhran said.

Note, also, that if you're shooting at the people in a car, according to the rules, they have good cover but only the armor from the vehicle applies, not the vehicle's body (SR4A, p. 171). In the case of the Honda spirit, that means the door of the vehicle counts for a lined coat. Which is fine by me.

[kzt]

Note, also, that if you're shooting at the people in a car, according to the rules, they have good cover but only the armor from the vehicle applies, not the vehicle's body (SR4A, p. 171). In the case of the Honda spirit, that means the door of the vehicle counts for a lined coat. Which is fine by me.

No, the rules are:

VEHICLE DAMAGE
Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as
normal, rolling Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does
not exceed the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied.

It nowhere says, under the subordinate heading of damage and passengers, that the general rules on vehicle damage don't apply to attacking passengers. Why wouldn't they? You are shooting through the vehicle structure, so the defense provided by armor and chassis (ie body) of the vehicle still gets applied to protect the passengers. As a matter of fact it says "Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing."

Otherwise, according to your version, you can just shoot the cops in the Citymaster with your pistol loaded with neurostun capsule rounds.....

[Dahrken]

"Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing."

Otherwise, according to your version, you can just shoot the cops in the Citymaster with your pistol loaded with neurostun capsule rounds.....

Did you really read what Rob just posted ? He said "you add the armor of the vehicule", and it is exactly what is said in your quote : "Adding the armor", not "Adding (Armor+Body)" ! Good luck puching through the citymaster's 10 Armor points with capsule rounds (Stun only damage, which armor vehicules is immune to).

IIRC Armor is never modified by Body rolls ! The "Modified Armor" that you compare to the modified Attack DV is the value after acounting for things like APDS or AV rounds. The (Body+Armor) roll to soak damages comes only after this step.