Question About KarmaGen, First time using it Options

[TheMidnightHobo]

So, I've made a few characters with the BP system, and I've gotten pretty decent at it (What can I say, character generation is the best part of SR! :D). Today I decided to give a go with Karma Gen. However, what came of my efforts seems far too good, and I'm afraid I may have done something wrong. So, here's the stats, and I'm hoping someone can say whether this is right for KarmaGen. And don't worry about the Amnesia quiality for no bonus, I took it to make my GM happy. :P

Thanks in advance, guys!

CODE

Elf

Abilities (-243)
Bod 3 (-15)
Str 4 (-27)
Rea 5(7) (-42)
Agi 7 (-75)
Log 3 (-15)
Int 5 (-42)
Cha 3 (-0)
Will 4 (-27)

Special Abilities
Edge 6 (-60)
Magic 11 (-195)
Initiative 12
IPs: 3
Essence 6.00
Initiate Grade: 5 (-80)

Initiate Powers
Flexible Signature
Masking
Centering

Active Skills (-221)
Unarmed Combat 6 (-46)
Boxing +2
Dodge 4 (-24)
Ranged +2
Running 2 (-10)
Sprinting +2
Pistols 4 (-24)
Light Pistols +2
Influence Skill Group 4 (-55)
(Con, Etiquette, Leadership, Negotiation)
Intimidation 2 (-10)
Interrogation +2
Assensing 2 (-8)
Perception 2 (-8)
Infiltration 2 (-10)
Ares Corporations +2
Shadowing 2 (-10)
Swimming 1 (-4)

Knowledge Skills
Languages
English N
Spanish 3
Safehouses 3
Black Markets 4
UK +2
Ski Resorts 3
Ares Security Protocol 3
Psychology 3
Ares Background 2
Bodyguarding 2

Qualities
Adept (-10)
Severe Allergy: Peanuts (+40)
Sensitive System (+30)
Martial Arts: Boxing 2 (-20)
Amnesia

Maneuvers (-8)
Set Up
Finishing Move

Adept Powers (11)
Improved Ability: Unarmed Combat 6 (-3)
Improved Reflexes 2 (-3)
Astral Perception (-1)
Critical Strike 8 (-2)
Combat Sense 4 (-2)

Sorry guys, I know this is weird, but I don't know what to do; I've referenced Runner's Companion a bunch of times and added up the numbers a bunch, and it comes out right, but it seems way to high-powered. I could use some help here.

[crizh]

Well straight off the bat a cursory look at that tells me you are using the SR4 costs for stats.

Ancient History has recently revealed that Karmagen was developed and balanced using the SR4A costs but published using the old SR4 costs.

I think you'll find that if you adjust the stats to be x5 rather than x3 that the whole thing will look a lot less unbalanced.

[TheMidnightHobo]

Hmm, that does sound much more reasonable. Thanks a lot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Karoline]

That explains why karmagen characters always seemed so much more powerful than BP characters.

[Ancient History]

It was an oops.

[Jhaiisiin]

I think "oops" is a technical term here.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Wow, I knew karmagen at x3 stat was out of whack but grade 5 initiate with 11 magic out of whack I did not suspect.

[Glyph]

Things like initiation are not allowed by default, but only by GM decision. They are not part of normal Karmagen (see the black text box of the upper right of page 43). The proposed "fix" doesn't work with the new Attribute costs, because the 375 Karma limit includes special Attributes (unless that section was simply written very poorly), which makes awakened characters or technomancers all but unplayable.

[Jaid]

Things like initiation are not allowed by default, but only by GM decision. They are not part of normal Karmagen (see the black text box of the upper right of page 43). The proposed "fix" doesn't work with the new Attribute costs, because the 375 Karma limit includes special Attributes (unless that section was simply written very poorly), which makes awakened characters or technomancers all but unplayable.

and if karmagen was allowed in any sort of official-type campaign where only official RAW is allowed, that 375 karma limit might even be a problem. but it isn't, and it's such an easy fix that all you have to do is say "that doesn't apply to special attributes" and you're done.

that said, i personally would consider allowing initiation at chargen in karmagen, but initiation grade 5 seems a little much...

[ElFenrir]

You know, that is the one part of Karmagen that had confused me. We had always played it(we use the x3 version) that special attributes count toward the 375. It seemed right.

But if for some reason we switch to x5(unlikely), I definitely would not count special toward that. That's far too harsh, IMO.

[TheMidnightHobo]

Things like initiation are not allowed by default, but only by GM decision. They are not part of normal Karmagen (see the black text box of the upper right of page 43). The proposed "fix" doesn't work with the new Attribute costs, because the 375 Karma limit includes special Attributes (unless that section was simply written very poorly), which makes awakened characters or technomancers all but unplayable.

I had thought Initiating at Chargen was the whole appeal of Karmagen. I guess my mistake. :O

Thinking it over, I guess that would make mages a bit overpowered at chargen compared to... everyone else. What would you give everyone else to compensate? Better grades of cyber and bio? Higher availability stuff? Mages can take that too...

[Sponge]

The proposed "fix" doesn't work with the new Attribute costs, because the 375 Karma limit includes special Attributes (unless that section was simply written very poorly), which makes awakened characters or technomancers all but unplayable.

I guess I don't try to min/max my characters like some, but I didn't have any problems with some rough attempts at statting out a mage with the karmagen system:

CODE

Stat  BP  Karma
ST 2  10  10
BD 3  20  25
AG 3  20  25
RE 4  30  45
LO 4  30  45
CH 4  30  45
WP 5  40  70
IN 3  20  25
-----------
      200 290
ED 3  10  15  (Human, base 2 Edge)
M  5  40  70
-----------
      250  375

You are not mistakenly paying for that first attribute point, are you?

[Karoline]

You know what's -really- fun under karmagen? Free spirits. You don't have to pay the 250 BP racial cost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ancient History]

I blame that one on Aaron. Because I can.

[DamienKnight]

You know what's -really- fun under karmagen? Free spirits. You don't have to pay the 250 BP racial cost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Special races built in karma gen are paid with Karma at the BP Cost x 2.

So in karmagen, free spirit race costs 500 karma. Ouchies!

So, I've made a few characters with the BP system, and I've gotten pretty decent at it (What can I say, character generation is the best part of SR! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). Today I decided to give a go with Karma Gen. However, what came of my efforts seems far too good, and I'm afraid I may have done something wrong.

Might I recommend SR4 Chargen DK version 1a? (link in my signature)

If you have Excel, or are using Vista with Open Office, it works great to help you make legal characters with BP or the Karma Build system, and supports both the x3 and the x5 attribute building options with karmagen.

Also, it has an option to adjust race prices in karmagen, so people like Karoline can build pimped out Free Spirits if they really like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[crizh]

Special races built in karma gen are paid with Karma at the BP Cost x 2.

What gave you that idea?

[TheMidnightHobo]

Special races built in karma gen are paid with Karma at the BP Cost x 2.

So in karmagen, free spirit race costs 500 karma. Ouchies!


Might I recommend SR4 Chargen DK version 1a? (link in my signature)

If you have Excel, or are using Vista with Open Office, it works great to help you make legal characters with BP or the Karma Build system, and supports both the x3 and the x5 attribute building options with karmagen.

Also, it has an option to adjust race prices in karmagen, so people like Karoline can build pimped out Free Spirits if they really like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I checked out the excel file, it seems really slow... Maybe that's cause I'm running a buncha stuff. It looks really comprehensive, though! Does it detail what all the house rules are that it allows for?

[StealthSigma]

Special races built in karma gen are paid with Karma at the BP Cost x 2.

Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc); there is no associated cost for metatype or race in Karma-based character generation, but the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3, below. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character's starting and maximum attribute ratings.

Bolded italics for emphasis.

The maximum Karma a character can spend on their attributes at character generation is half their starting Karma (rounding up) plus twice the listed BP cost for their metatype or alternate racial concept.

[Karoline]

Woo, go other people looking up the exact rules for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So yep, free spirit costs the same amount to play as a human, and is even more advantageous because the free spirit can spend more points on stats if they wanted to than the human (All of them actually, if really desired)

[Doc Byte]

The proposed "fix" doesn't work with the new Attribute costs, because the 375 Karma limit includes special Attributes (unless that section was simply written very poorly), which makes awakened characters or technomancers all but unplayable.

Can't confirm that. All you have to do is playing a high cost metahuman.

Race: Fomori 45 BP / 45 Karma (or 90?)

B 6 - -

A 4 30 45

R 4 30 45

St 6 10 30

C 3/4 20 45

I 4/5 30 70

L 4 30 45

W 5 40 70

E 4 30 45

M 5 40 70

Attributes: 190+70 BP / 465 Karma

Metagenetic Improvment Body -
Arcane Arrester -
Distinctive Style -
Magican (druidic tradition) 15 / 30
Mentorspirit 5 / 10
Surge II 10 / 20
- Metagenetic Improvment Charisma
- Bioluminescence
- Extravagant Eyes

BP: 235 / Karma: 570

Not bad at all.

[Karoline]

Karma cost for playing a Fomori is 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As explained a few posts up.

[Doc Byte]

Karma cost for playing a Fomori is 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As explained a few posts up.

I was told something else by a German dev who was (supposedly) told by a Catalyst dev.

[Karoline]

I was told something else by a German dev who was (supposedly) told by a Catalyst dev.

*shrug* Just sayin' what the book(s) say(s) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Byte]

*shrug* Just sayin' what the book(s) say(s) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sure. I was referring to the forthcoming errata. I just don't know if race costs will be BP or BP*2 due to a typo. The german edition of RC will be released in 3 weeks with errated karmagen.

[Karoline]

Sure. I was referring to the forthcoming errata. I just don't know if race costs will be BP or BP*2 due to a typo. The german edition of RC will be released in 3 weeks with errated karmagen.

Oh, cool. I would imagine it would be equal to BP, because it becomes much more expensive to upgrade a troll's strength in karmagen than it was in BP, so there are still some drawbacks to a high BP race.

Really, what Karmagen seems to encourage, is the use of opposite races. Trolls make good hackers because they already have all the body stats they could ever want, and only miss out on a bit of mental stats. Same for orks. I suppose if there are any 'intellectual' type races, they would actually make good combatants because they already come with all the mental stats they need to not seem gimpy.