[X] My Assistant

[Boomer1985]

Im wondering how to get my negotiations DP as high as possible. Im an elven mage so as of right now i have a cha of 7 and negotiations skill 5 of with a specialization in bargaining giving me a dp of 14 i can also cast and sustain a F4 cha increase spell so with the -2 to the test and +4 to cha that would give me a DP of 16.

The only other thing i can find to increase the DP w/o spending karma or putting extra into the item is the emotitoy and my gm said that i cant use that in the extended test because part of it would be online and the emotitoy wouldnt help.

So any advice would be helpful and appreciated.

[R-Caine]

You could take the Dragonslayer as a spirit mentor which gives you +2 to combat spells and +2 to one social skill.

[LurkerOutThere]

The peoplesofts in arsenal willa dd bonus dice and theres no much reason for them not to be usable online.

[Wasabi]

Raising the hard cap makes or breaks your capability to negotiate because the hard cap, well, caps your dicepool.
That means more unaugmented Charisma and more Negotiation skill unlock higher avail items since you lose 1 die every attempt at purchase.
Also note that the magic numbers are multiple of 4 since inbetween missions your ability to buy stuff is bought at 4:1 per the Missions rule.

BASE
Negotiation 5
Charisma 7
[this makes your hard cap a maximum of 24 dice after all bonuses]
Edge: ??? [not all the time but either allows you to reroll failures or add bonus dice with open ended sixes.
EG: 24 dice without Edge then use Edge to reroll failures means on average you get 8 hits at first then reroll 16 dice for 5.3 more hits, 13.3 hits total on avg
24 dice containing Edge on average gets 4 sixes which then gives a total of 9.3 hits so if you can get 24 dice without Edge and then use Edge to reroll failures thats the most effective way to do it.]

ALL-THE-TIME BONUSES
Street Cred: +(However many you have UP TO CHARISMA) {{Thanks, RobertB}}
Specialization in Bargaining: +2
F7 Increase Charisma Spell [has to be F7 because you have a 7 Charisma]: +5 [taking your charisma to augmented maximum] {{Thanks, TeaTime}}
First Impression Positive Quality: +2 for 5 BP or 10 Karma
Dragonslayer or Dragon or Moon Maiden Mentor Spirit: +2 for 5 BP or 10 Karma
Raise Negotiation to 6: +1 for 18 Karma
Enhanced Attribute: Charisma: 20 BP or 40 Karma plus another bajillion Karma for the CHA point. Not worth it, chummer.

SURGE II [then Metagenetic Improvement Positive Metagentic Quality - Charisma: +1 to Cha and Augmented Max for 10 BP or 20 Karma. Make sure if using Quickening that you locked a F8 or F9 Incr Charisma spell as it will not provide bonuses if its Force is less than your natural Charisma - Also note this positive quality GIVES YOU A POINT OF CHARISMA. This means for 20 Karma you raise CHA by one as well as augmented max.


CONDITIONAL BONUSES
Chatty [AR/VR only!]: +2 for 5 BP or 10 Karma
Empathy Sensor Software [RL or AR only per your GM]: +6 for 3000 nuyen, avail 12 [see Arsenal p60]

DISCLAIMER
I have heard different things about what is capped and what is not within skilltests. I dont understand it all so I assume everything is capped and base my math off that. You may find after reading threads here in the Missions forum and the rule itself in the Missions FAQ that situational modifiers are not included in the cap. If so, pile those onto a capped dicepool for more than 24 dice then use Edge to reroll failures.

Also note that an earlier poster shared a chart of what Negotiation dicepool you needed to buy hits in downtime for each avail item. At high dicepools your Negotiation used to buy items is as much about saving time/lifestyle as it is about getting the item.

[RobertB]

Also, each point of Street Cred applies to social skill tests against those who are aware of your reputation. The maximum number of dice you can add from your Street Cred is capped by your Charisma. So, as you gain experience, you also gain negotiating power.

Robert (aka Spanner)

[TeaTime]

With a Charisma of 7 (softmaxed) at character generation, couldn't you push it with up 5 more dice with Increased Charisma spell to the maxed augmented elf charisma cap of 12?

I agree with Wasabi, you'd be casting Increased Charisma at a force 7... Makes a sustaining focus would be tough (and probably some physical damage from overcasting).

[Wasabi]

So I guess 34 Negotiation dice is the most a fellow could have.
Based on 2*[Charisma 10 + Negotiations 7]

TeaTime and RobertB's advice folded into my previous reply... with credit to them by the entry.

EDIT: As BishopMcQ pointed out only natural attribute + skill determines hard cap.

[BishopMcQ]

As a note:

Increase [Attribute] augments an attribute, it does not increase the natural attribute, which is how the dice cap is calculated. Also note that the Force of the spell must be equal or greater than the augmented total. (So to go to Charisma 14, you would need to cast at Force 14 or higher.)

[Wasabi]

the Force of the spell must be equal or greater than the augmented total. (So to go to Charisma 14, you would need to cast at Force 14 or higher.)

Wow. Even in the 1.3 rules it apparently says force equal to augmented value. Huh. Everyone I know, myself included, has done this wrong for years. Huh. Aint that sumthin'. :-/

[RobertB]

As a note:

Increase [Attribute] augments an attribute, it does not increase the natural attribute, which is how the dice cap is calculated. Also note that the Force of the spell must be equal or greater than the augmented total. (So to go to Charisma 14, you would need to cast at Force 14 or higher.)

Not to argue rules, but shouldn't the force of the spell equal the augmented value of the attribute before the spell is cast? You wouldn't know what the augmented value would be before you cast the spell since you don't yet know how many successes you have.

Robert (aka Spanner)

[TeaTime]

Increase [Attribute] augments an attribute, it does not increase the natural attribute, which is how the dice cap is calculated. Also note that the Force of the spell must be equal or greater than the augmented total. (So to go to Charisma 14, you would need to cast at Force 14 or higher.)

The most you can get out Increase [Attribute] is still augmented max, right?

[BishopMcQ]

RobertB--I believe the intent was to have the Force of the spell act as an absolute cap for the Attribute. One way to look at it would be a Mage who has a Body of 2, could cast Increased [Body] at Force 6, get the 4 hits he needs and raise his Body to 6. If the Force only had to match the current Rating, the same mage could cast at Force 2, spend a point of Edge and for a Force 2 spell, have a Body of 3-15 based on hits. The second option seems unbalanced and doesn't match what was written in the book.

TeaTime--By my understanding, yes, the attribute is still capped by racial limits. I picked 14 for an example only.

[RobertB]

RobertB--I believe the intent was to have the Force of the spell act as an absolute cap for the Attribute. One way to look at it would be a Mage who has a Body of 2, could cast Increased [Body] at Force 6, get the 4 hits he needs and raise his Body to 6. If the Force only had to match the current Rating, the same mage could cast at Force 2, spend a point of Edge and for a Force 2 spell, have a Body of 3-15 based on hits. The second option seems unbalanced and doesn't match what was written in the book.

Ok, I'm with you as far as the reasoning goes, but isn't the limiting factor for the number of total hits the force of the spell? In your example, the mage using a Force 2 spell, can only raise his attribute a maximum of 2 points (hits limited by the force of the spell). Edge can't help because of the force limitation.

To summarize, the way I've run it, if a mage casts Increase Body on an orc sammy with a Body of 4 (6), the spell must be cast at least at a Force of 6 (the augmented Body score of the sammy), and the total increase would be limited to the net hits which are limited by the force of the spell (that is, 6). Thus giving the sam a new Body of anywhere between 4 (6) with no hits and 4 (12) with 6 hits.

Heh, of course the Health spell section is of no help in clarifying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Robert (aka Spanner)

[BishopMcQ]

Robert--Edge removes the restriction on number of hits.

SR4A p. 68 - Attribute Ratings
Care must be made to distinguish between natural, unmodified attribute ratings and those augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers, and magic. Generally, augmented ratings are listed in parentheses after the natural rating, such as: 4 (6).


SR4A p. 208 - Increase [Attribute]
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored. Each attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

Emphasis Added, but the presence of the parantheses around the augmented makes me think that they are referrring to the end result of the spell. Basically, if you cast at Force 6, you know that you won't be able to raise the Attribute above 6. (Add to that, the DV is fairly low, so a Force 10, you are looking at a DV of 3.)

I will talk with some people to find intent, but this way, you at least can see my reasoning.

[Bull]

Robert--Edge removes the restriction on number of hits.

SR4A p. 68 - Attribute Ratings
Care must be made to distinguish between natural, unmodified attribute ratings and those augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers, and magic. Generally, augmented ratings are listed in parentheses after the natural rating, such as: 4 (6).


SR4A p. 208 - Increase [Attribute]
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored. Each attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

Emphasis Added, but the presence of the parantheses around the augmented makes me think that they are referrring to the end result of the spell. Basically, if you cast at Force 6, you know that you won't be able to raise the Attribute above 6. (Add to that, the DV is fairly low, so a Force 10, you are looking at a DV of 3.)

I will talk with some people to find intent, but this way, you at least can see my reasoning.

I hate to say this, as I like your reasoning Bish, but.... To me, the "(augmented)" is referring to the augmented score at the time of the casting. I can see your reasoning, but i think that there are better (and clearer) ways of stating your reading of the spell

However, either way, this is good to know. We have a Social Mage in Andy's game that's talking about using Increased Charisma, and as he's already got an 8 or so, this is definitely gonna slow him down a bit. (Course, since he's a fellow PC, that kinda hinders me too, but still...)

Bull

[TeaTime]

.... We have a Social Mage in Andy's game that's talking about using Increased Charisma, and as he's already got an 8 or so, this is definitely gonna slow him down a bit.

My reading was closer to Bull's. In the example above, I was thinking that Andy would need to cast Increased Charisma at a Force 8 to get any boosts a all. Assuming he got four hits, he'd be functioning at a CHA 8 (12) and sustaining a Increased Charisma at Force 8.

And with a charisma like that, I'm pretty sure Andy can convince me that he alone has the correct interpretation of the spell. So I'm going with however Andy wants to call it.

[Axl]

"you'd be casting Increased Charisma at a force 7... Makes a sustaining focus would be tough (and probably some physical damage from overcasting." - TeaTime

The drain value from a Force 7 Increase Charisma spell is ... 1. No magician would be taking drain.

[TeaTime]

The drain value from a Force 7 Increase Charisma spell is ... 1. No magician would be taking drain.

Ah, I'm not a very good Magician! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ryu]

SR4A p. 208 - Increase [Attribute]
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored. Each attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

Emphasis Added, but the presence of the parantheses around the augmented makes me think that they are referrring to the end result of the spell. Basically, if you cast at Force 6, you know that you won't be able to raise the Attribute above 6. (Add to that, the DV is fairly low, so a Force 10, you are looking at a DV of 3.)

I will talk with some people to find intent, but this way, you at least can see my reasoning.

After reading your argument I understand how you arrive at "total attribute value after casting the spell is limited to (force)". That interpretation never came up for us; we went a) check, b) as always, c) of course. In hindsight there is no explicit sequence, so all conditions must be met at the same time, and the spell augments the attribute (magically).

I prefer low-force spells that work, so in case your way is the correct one I would suggest to increase the drain and change the ruling.

[Ryu]

SR4A p. 208 - Increase [Attribute]
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored. Each attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

Emphasis Added, but the presence of the parantheses around the augmented makes me think that they are referrring to the end result of the spell. Basically, if you cast at Force 6, you know that you won't be able to raise the Attribute above 6. (Add to that, the DV is fairly low, so a Force 10, you are looking at a DV of 3.)

I will talk with some people to find intent, but this way, you at least can see my reasoning.

After reading your argument I understand how you arrive at "total attribute value after casting the spell is limited to (force)". That interpretation never came up for us; we went a) check, b) as always, c) of course. In hindsight there is no explicit sequence, so all conditions must be met at the same time, and the spell augments the attribute (magically).

I prefer low-force spells that work, so in case your way is the correct one I would suggest to increase the drain and change the ruling.