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> Infected as Player Characters, so has anyone actually allowed it?
Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 04:37 PM
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I'm just curious - has anyone actually run a campaign (standard 400 pt or otherwise) that allowed for ghoul, vampire or other infected characters/concepts? If so, how did they stack up with the other players in your group?

I'm considering allowing a ghoul player character into my up and coming SR4 game and thought I'd ask the experts before I give the nod to my player(s). feedback welcome! positive, negative, or whatever you gots to say on the topic I wanna hear it.
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Stahlseele
post Oct 4 2009, 05:23 PM
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I would not mix infected with any other kind of character.
Except maybe other stuff from RC. Things that can't get infected.
Or you run a campaign with all infected characters.
Else, basically every time a ghoul shakes hands with another guy,
congratulations, you have another bleached face.
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Namelessjoe
post Oct 4 2009, 05:27 PM
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hi there

we havent had any undead, no infected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but i think a word of caution (baring your game style) is of societies views of ghouls.... ive played a 10ft tall full conversion troll and just my appearance it was very difficult to get around in town(read:near impossible) it would be easer for a ghoul but still.... oh also keep in mind his eating habits and the people you would need to associate with for the meats mmmm brains (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) anyway i suppose to make it easyer but reduce the neg ramifications you could always roll food requirements into the cost of lifestyle

any way i think with a good back story and thoughtfull prep with the hay if you cause raiots from eating too much soilent green you may have to mak a back up charicter clause id say go for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 4 2009, 12:23 PM) *
I would not mix infected with any other kind of character.
Except maybe other stuff from RC. Things that can't get infected.
Or you run a campaign with all infected characters.
Else, basically every time a ghoul shakes hands with another guy,
congratulations, you have another bleached face.


it's not THAT easy to pass on the infection. blood to blood transfer, sexual contact (ewwww!) and/or saliva can pass on the disease. But contact doesn't automatically ensure infection. A simple handshake alone won't do it.

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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 05:53 PM
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Isn't there some quality that infected can take (A negative quality in fact) that makes it so that they can't transfer the virus? Something like 'infertile infected.' I believe all second generation infected have this automatically (ie children of actual infected). This could prevent the 'oh snap, ghoul army' syndrome that accompanies the high contagious rate of infected.

Diet is also important to keep in mind. You likely don't want to just handwave the fact that ghouls need a quarter their body weight in raw meat a week, and vampires need that much blood. You don't need to go into gory detail either, but it shouldn't be "Hey! Stuffer shack dude! I need a quarter pounder, raw, and a blood shake, to go please." either.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 01:53 PM) *
Isn't there some quality that infected can take (A negative quality in fact) that makes it so that they can't transfer the virus? Something like 'infertile infected.' I believe all second generation infected have this automatically (ie children of actual infected). This could prevent the 'oh snap, ghoul army' syndrome that accompanies the high contagious rate of infected.


actually, I didn't know the answer to this question, so I went looking in the SR4 rulebook. The infection power only comes into play AFTER someone has been drained down to zero essence. And even then, it's a opposed test to see if they become infected.

QUOTE
Diet is also important to keep in mind. You likely don't want to just handwave the fact that ghouls need a quarter their body weight in raw meat a week, and vampires need that much blood. You don't need to go into gory detail either, but it shouldn't be "Hey! Stuffer shack dude! I need a quarter pounder, raw, and a blood shake, to go please." either.


depending on the particulars of character background, I could always take the option listed in the Runner's Companion and use some variant on the advanced lifestyles rules to handle part of the dietary requirement. Essence loss (for vampires) isn't TOO bad a deal - they have to feed at least once a month or lose one point of essence. ghouls tho...they have to feed at least once a week (5% of their body weight per week) or they start to starve to death. That might be most interesting indeed...hmm, also vampires have to feed on blood once a week too or they'll starve. so looks like they'll be raiding the blood bank in addition to draining essence at least once a lunar cycle....go go runner's companion.

So dietary requirements are going to be something to ponder for any player who decides to play an infected. i'm less concerned about them infecting someone else, since it seems to be fairly difficult to infect others. I also see no information listed about Infected and offspring - my assumption is that infection renders the victim infertile and unable to reproduce via normal methods.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 06:28 PM
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ah - ok, so addendum to my previous post:

HMHVVI (strain I) can only be passed via the infection power.
HMHVVII and HMHVVIII are passed as other diseases. so contact with body fluids and the like can result in infection and transformation. However - strain II and III can be fought with magic and/or strong antibotics. if/when the disease takes effect, it's irreversible...but prior to that it can be fought off successfullly, if properly treated and swift action is taken.

also - it is apparently possible for someone to be a 'carrier' of HMHVV but not infected themselves. Infected can also take the 'infertile infected' quality and cannot infect other people. Interestingly enough, the reading of 'infertile infected' does hint at the possiblity of 'normal' childbirth for infected.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 02:28 PM) *
ah - ok, so addendum to my previous post:

HMHVVI (strain I) can only be passed via the infection power.
HMHVVII and HMHVVIII are passed as other diseases. so contact with body fluids and the like can result in infection and transformation. However - strain II and III can be fought with magic and/or strong antibotics. if/when the disease takes effect, it's irreversible...but prior to that it can be fought off successfullly, if properly treated and swift action is taken.

also - it is apparently possible for someone to be a 'carrier' of HMHVV but not infected themselves. Infected can also take the 'infertile infected' quality and cannot infect other people. Interestingly enough, the reading of 'infertile infected' does hint at the possiblity of 'normal' childbirth for infected.


Yeah, carriers result when you have someone with an infection that isn't compatible with their metatype (such as a human with the Wendigo strain which only affects orks).

infertile infected generally result from the children of infected (Which are possible for some infected but not for others, there is a section on it in RC)

Also, you have got to be super careful with the spreading for the virus. Yes it can be fought off with antibiotics and such, but strain II is power 13 and strain III is power 8, both with penetration -6 (Don't remember if that is good or bad) and is spread by contact with an infected, their blood, or their saliva. You can get it down, but it is hard and requires serious medical/magical attention.

I'd suggest limiting the infected allowed to those that are type I so that it can be more easily controlled -or- requiring anyone with type II or III to get the infertile infected quality.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 01:53 PM) *
I'd suggest limiting the infected allowed to those that are type I so that it can be more easily controlled -or- requiring anyone with type II or III to get the infertile infected quality.


hmm...good points, and well worth considering. I just reread the rules for disease in the augmentation book and you're right - HMHVV is far nastier than even gamma-anthrax. however, it's still limited to contact. I'd specifically say contact where the possiblity of fluid transfer could take place, but the rules aren't that specific. Combat injuries could do it, of course. Or again, sexual contact with a ghoul (ewww). But merely shaking hands wouldn't be enough, at least in my book anyway.

howeve,r, the point about requiring infected players to take the infertile infected quality is well made. I shall add that to my character creation campaign notes.
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SincereAgape
post Oct 4 2009, 07:00 PM
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I am curious to see how infected PC (Specfically Vampires) stack up compared the base metahumans in a 400 build point campaign.

I enjoy using Vampires as NPCs and have used a grade 3 initiate vampire mage as a prime runner in the North Jersey campaign (Risa from On the Run).

On paper, I assume a vampire with adapt or magical abilities would outshine an elf, human, ork, dwarf, or troll because of their regeneration powers and natural vision enhancements, and ability to turn into mist. (Especailly adapts).

The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 02:58 PM) *
hmm...good points, and well worth considering. I just reread the rules for disease in the augmentation book and you're right - HMHVV is far nastier than even gamma-anthrax. however, it's still limited to contact. I'd specifically say contact where the possiblity of fluid transfer could take place, but the rules aren't that specific. Combat injuries could do it, of course. Or again, sexual contact with a ghoul (ewww). But merely shaking hands wouldn't be enough, at least in my book anyway.

howeve,r, the point about requiring infected players to take the infertile infected quality is well made. I shall add that to my character creation campaign notes.


Shaking a ghoul's hand is enough to transfer the virus. Contact vectors are just that. Any sort of contact with anything that gives the disease (Which includes the infected itself, its blood, or its saliva) with any part of your skin counts as contact. This is what makes some people have a bit of difficulty believing the 'repressed minority' thing, because it seems like a single well disguised ghoul could transform thousands of people just by going up to people and shaking their hand or patting them on the arm or spitting on some hand rails or door nobs/handles.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Oct 4 2009, 03:00 PM) *
I am curious to see how infected PC (Specfically Vampires) stack up compared the base metahumans in a 400 build point campaign.

I enjoy using Vampires as NPCs and have used a grade 3 initiate vampire mage as a prime runner in the North Jersey campaign (Risa from On the Run).

On paper, I assume a vampire with adapt or magical abilities would outshine an elf, human, ork, dwarf, or troll because of their regeneration powers and natural vision enhancements, and ability to turn into mist. (Especailly adapts).

The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.


Hehe, I'll have to make one once I'm done with my current character I'm working on.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Oct 4 2009, 02:00 PM) *
The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.


to some extent, the BP costs for attributes are mitigated by the bonus stats vampires get merely for being one of the infected. Ghouls, for example, are walking freaking tanks. vampires tend to be quicker, more agile. But all of the infected see some level of modifications for their stat line.

To answer your question, yes - a vampire PC will suffer for their choice. it's 100BP for a vampire (35 for ghouls), which means sacrificing in other areas. Or picking up negative qualities somewhere. Not to mention the social stigma of being a vampire or ghoul. And I believe that many areas of the world still consider it open season on the infected. Not to mention that for many of the infected, merely trying to feed themselves is a crime. so there are significant downsides to playing one of the infected, and I intend to enforce them if and when they arise.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 02:05 PM) *
Shaking a ghoul's hand is enough to transfer the virus.


i'm going to disagree with that interpretation. contact with bodily fluids, yes. mere skin to skin contact, no. the rules in Augmentation (pg 129) and Runners Companion (pg 83) certainly indicate that contact or exchange of bodily fluids counts as exposure but shaking hands with ghoul isn't enough to spred the disease.
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SincereAgape
post Oct 4 2009, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 03:06 PM) *
Hehe, I'll have to make one once I'm done with my current character I'm working on.


Boo. Hiss. Can't stand vampires to be honest with ya. Let me know how that turns out though. I am tempted to roll one myself and use them as a NPC.

Interesting. Only a moderate allergy to sunlight. That means they can go out in the sun without instantly frying.

Server to Wood. *Sharpens stake and gets a baseball bat ready*

QUOTE
To answer your question, yes - a vampire PC will suffer for their choice. it's 100BP for a vampire (35 for ghouls), which means sacrificing in other areas. Or picking up negative qualities somewhere. Not to mention the social stigma of being a vampire or ghoul. And I believe that many areas of the world still consider it open season on the infected. Not to mention that for many of the infected, merely trying to feed themselves is a crime. so there are significant downsides to playing one of the infected, and I intend to enforce them if and when they arise.


There are many Ghoul socities, and I believe there is even a ghoul nation or sect in LA.

Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Oct 4 2009, 03:17 PM) *
Boo. Hiss. Can't stand vampires to be honest with ya. Let me know how that turns out though. I am tempted to roll one myself and use them as a NPC.

Interesting. Only a moderate allergy to sunlight. That means they can go out in the sun without instantly frying.

Server to Wood. *Sharpens stake and gets a baseball bat ready*



There are many Ghoul socities, and I believe there is even a ghoul nation or sect in LA.

Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.


Who makes anything out of wood in 2072? Bats included, last I checked wood was kinda hard/expensive to get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There is some mention about Cabals of vampires (often headed by a nosforatu), but I figure that Vampires can blend into society quite well as they look almost completely normal (I've got a sunlight allergy, soy allergy, and fang implants when I was a kid)

QUOTE
HMHVV II is responsible for the creation of bandersnatchii,
fomóraig, and loup-garou, and is typically spread by unprotected
contact with those creatures or their bodily fluids.


Notice how it says with the creatures -or- their bodily fluids, thus contact with the creature itself is enough.

HMHVV III starts out the exact same way.

So unless you're wearing gloves, don't shake a ghoul's hand.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Oct 4 2009, 02:17 PM) *
Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.


don't get me started.

I've actually been thinking about HMHVV and shadowrun quite a bit. were there people carrying the disease when mana levels got high enough for it to activate? If so, were they the 'first generation' of infected? given their immunity to age it's possible they're still around.

ghouls actually have two main 'factions': followers of Tamir Grey (the Ghoul Liberation League) who are largely peaceful and lawabiding, and the survivors of the Cabrini Green massacre (the 162s) who are much more militant and violent. Of the two, I could see the 162's going around and trying to infect high ranking corporate types and influential politicans.

actuall, I think they're the 162's. I don't have loose alliances with me at the moment so I can't check it for reference. Anyways, vampires are quite a bit more rare in shadowrun. Not to mention they seem to tend towards a more solitary lifestyle. I could see a couple vampires getting together to form a loose web of contacts and feeding tips/tactics but I don't see them clubbing together like the ghouls do. And forget about the nosferatu vampires - they're strictly loners. moreso than standard vampires.
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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 4 2009, 07:57 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) One of the folks I'm playing with now played a ghoul in her last game, and my characters best contact is a ghoul in this one, along with her romantic interest.
Things to keep in mind:
You have to work out how they're getting their food. There are actual law abiding ways to do this, as well as black market.
Gloves. Chemically sealed.
Ghouls should not be kissed, and should not have sex, except with other infected. (Yes, I know, romance interest for my character aside, its a tragedy thing for them. look but don't touch)
Ghouls look like ghouls, except when they don't. cybereyes, good make up, wigs. And you can't fix that astral signature.
If your teammates find out you're a ghoul theres a 50/50 chance they'll kill you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Some groups its worse odds than that, some groups its better.
If you are a SINless ghoul, you are fair game for bounty hunters.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) sometimes the challenges are what make the game fun, sometimes its what makes it not fun. Do whats fun for ya'll.

~TDG
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Ravor
post Oct 4 2009, 08:06 PM
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Hell, even if you have a SIN you are still likely to be "fair game".


But then again, my players have a "kill it with fire" attitude towards Ghouls, Vampires not so much since they have to actually try to infect you...
'
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Muspellsheimr
post Oct 4 2009, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 10:35 AM) *
it's not THAT easy to pass on the infection. blood to blood transfer, sexual contact (ewwww!) and/or saliva can pass on the disease. But contact doesn't automatically ensure infection. A simple handshake alone won't do it.

Yes, it is. Yes, it does.

QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 12:15 PM) *
i'm going to disagree with that interpretation. contact with bodily fluids, yes. mere skin to skin contact, no. the rules in Augmentation (pg 129) and Runners Companion (pg 83) certainly indicate that contact or exchange of bodily fluids counts as exposure but shaking hands with ghoul isn't enough to spred the disease.

QUOTE (Augmentation p.129)
Vector
The vector is the method by which the disease infects the
host. Diseases spread by contact must touch the target's skin. A
chemical seal (see p.317, SR4) offers complete protection unless
breached. Diseases spread by ingestion may be in food or liquid
consumed by the victim. Diseases spread by inhalation may be
transmitted to the victim via his breathing apparatus; a character
wearing a gas mask, chemical seal, or using an activated cyberware
internal air tank (p. 334, SR4) is immune to its effects. Diseases
spread by injection must be injected into the target's bloodstream
or alternately through an open wound.

You are thinking of Injection. Ghouls spread by Contact, with a nearly guaranteed success rate (Power 8 ). Unless immediately treated with high-rating nanotechnology, the character will become a Ghoul, and even then, they are probably going to loose a significant chunk of Essence.

Rules as Written, the fluff cannot be accurate because the entire planet has become Ghouls 5 years ago.




Edit: To the original question, Vampires & Nosferatu are correctly priced, & reasonably balanced (they should be slightly better - the Infected additional IP should stack with other forms of Initiative Enhancement).

As for the other Infected, they are all either overpowered or underpowered - most to a significant degree - for the Build Points they cost to play. For example, barring the above idiocy regarding contagions, Ghouls should cost 60 Build Points, & Loup-Garou should be a 20 Build Point negative quality.

Assuming you fix the contagion factor (which should be done regardless of if there is a player ghoul or not), and you do not mind the balancing discrepencies (I do, so I changed the costs), then Ghouls are just fine.


Suggested Contagion Fix:
Power: 5
Vector: Injection
Penetration: -2

This means that a single hit from a Ghoul's natural weapon that deals Physical damage will run a strong chance of Infection, but it is not a guaranteed thing (although it will make it more likely the next time, & so on). More importantly, the rules actually match the fluff & it is no longer a apocalypse scenario.
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Udoshi
post Oct 4 2009, 09:21 PM
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If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 4 2009, 05:21 PM) *
If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.


We are using RC for all of these numbers.

Edit: Or at least I am.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 04:27 PM) *
We are using RC for all of these numbers.

Edit: Or at least I am.


As am I.
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Weaver95
post Oct 4 2009, 10:03 PM
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Here's another oddity to the HMHVV rules - if ghouls were really 'one touch/instant infection', then why are the bounties on them so low? Looking in 'Running Wild', sidebar pg 64 there's a list of bounties paid in the CAS and UCAS on various and sundry infected. Ghouls rate a 1,500 nuyen catch in the CAS, 1,500 in UCAS. Vampires, on the other hand, weigh in at 6,000 nuyen for CAS, 7,500 in the UCAS.

Aside from establishing the fact that the UCAS really really hates vampires for some reason, why would the critter with the lesser rate of infection (i.e. vampires having to drain essence of a victim before using their infection power) have the higher bounty when ghouls (if they can infect merely by shaking hands are a MUCH bigger danger) are a much much lower bounty? if the CAS and UCAS really wanted to get rid of ghouls they'd put a higher bounty on them to encourage hunting them down and getting rid of them.

totally weird.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 10:12 PM
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Well, one thing that you have to keep in mind is that the ghoul infection takes 10 days to take full affect, so if you -know- you've been in contact with a ghoul, you can go get some medical treatment (Which might actually be provided for free by the government to prevent an outbreak). So the danger is when you have stealth ghoul going around spitting on door knobs, not when crazed ghouls try eating you.

There is also the fact that Vampires may not be as physically strong as Ghouls, but they are much harder to kill, and if they want they can transform a person in a matter of minutes. They are also rarer. UCAS doesn't mind forking over a big bounty on something that they are unlikely to have to pay up on more than 1 or 2 at a time. Ghouls on the other hand can be brought in by the cart load, and UCAS just doesn't want to have a sudden hit to their resources when someone walks in with 20 ghoul heads with a 10k bounty on each one.
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