[X] My Assistant

[Muspellsheimr]

If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.

Except for one minor detail - the rules in Runners Companion & Running Wild are identical.

Here's another oddity to the HMHVV rules - if ghouls were really 'one touch/instant infection', then why are the bounties on them so low? Looking in 'Running Wild', sidebar pg 64 there's a list of bounties paid in the CAS and UCAS on various and sundry infected. Ghouls rate a 1,500 nuyen catch in the CAS, 1,500 in UCAS. Vampires, on the other hand, weigh in at 6,000 nuyen for CAS, 7,500 in the UCAS.

Aside from establishing the fact that the UCAS really really hates vampires for some reason, why would the critter with the lesser rate of infection (i.e. vampires having to drain essence of a victim before using their infection power) have the higher bounty when ghouls (if they can infect merely by shaking hands are a MUCH bigger danger) are a much much lower bounty? if the CAS and UCAS really wanted to get rid of ghouls they'd put a higher bounty on them to encourage hunting them down and getting rid of them.

totally weird.

You know, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. As I have been saying, the rules are fucking retarded. They simply do not work for anything except a Zombie Apocalypse game, & as this is obviously not such a game, the rules are broken.

Simple answer is the correct one - the HMHVV III rules do not function as intended, & no amount of trying to twist it will work, said rules simply need to be altered.

[Weaver95]

Well, one thing that you have to keep in mind is that the ghoul infection takes 10 days to take full affect

Actually, that's untrue. according to RC, pg 83 - HMHVV III (the ghoul strain) has a 1 day infection period. At any time after that, you can start spreading the joy of ghoul-dom. and you aren't incapacatated either - you can be walking around. Ok, technically you'd probably be puking your guts out, screaming/moaning in agony and somewhat confused...but you could be walking/stumbling around and infecting others. If we are to assume that mere touch alone is responsible for infection (and the pathology of the disease can be implied from other/older source material for this to NOT be the case), one ghoul that gets into someplace like ACHE (the former renraku arcology) would turn the entire place into a charnel house inside of 2 days.

Why would the CAS and UCAS not want to see something like that exterminated post haste?

There is also the fact that Vampires may not be as physically strong as Ghouls, but they are much harder to kill, and if they want they can transform a person in a matter of minutes. They are also rarer. UCAS doesn't mind forking over a big bounty on something that they are unlikely to have to pay up on more than 1 or 2 at a time. Ghouls on the other hand can be brought in by the cart load, and UCAS just doesn't want to have a sudden hit to their resources when someone walks in with 20 ghoul heads with a 10k bounty on each one.

the mechanics of vampiric infection vs ghoul infection patterns (assuming we take your model as reality) indicate that ghouls are the vastly greater threat. yet the bounty on ghouls is among the lowest in every nation. that simply does not fit together.

[Muspellsheimr]

the mechanics of vampiric infection vs ghoul infection patterns (assuming we take your model as reality) indicate that ghouls are the vastly greater threat. yet the bounty on ghouls is among the lowest in every nation. that simply does not fit together.

Again, simple answer is the correct answer. The Rules as Written need to be fixed, as they do not even remotely reflect the fluff or setting of the game.

[Weaver95]

Except for one minor detail - the rules in Runners Companion & Running Wild are identical.


You know, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. As I have been saying, the rules are fucking retarded. They simply do not work for anything except a Zombie Apocalypse game, & as this is obviously not such a game, the rules are broken.

Simple answer is the correct one - the HMHVV III rules do not function as intended, & no amount of trying to twist it will work, said rules simply need to be altered.

here's what I think - I am going to treat HMHVV strains listed as 'contact' as to assume 'contact with bodily fluids'. Strain I is unchanged, still requiring the use of the critter Infection power/essence drain combo punch in order to activate it's vampiric goodness. To assume that merely shaking hands with a ghoul indicates instant infection simply does not fit with the established game setting. you're right - to strictly interpret the HMHVV rules as listed would result in an instant zombie apocalypse style game.

[Karoline]

Actually, that's untrue. according to RC, pg 83 - HMHVV III (the ghoul strain) has a 1 day infection period. At any time after that, you can start spreading the joy of ghoul-dom. and you aren't incapacatated either - you can be walking around. Ok, technically you'd probably be puking your guts out, screaming/moaning in agony and somewhat confused...but you could be walking/stumbling around and infecting others. If we are to assume that mere touch alone is responsible for infection (and the pathology of the disease can be implied from other/older source material for this to NOT be the case), one ghoul that gets into someplace like ACHE (the former renraku arcology) would turn the entire place into a charnel house inside of 2 days.

You should really read the full text and not just the quick stats. Also, reading over the disease rules again... you are very very unlikely to ever become a ghoul. You will lose a big chunk of essence, but you won't become a ghoul.

Get ready for rules!

Now then, HMHVV III has a speed of 1 day, a power of 8, and a penetration of -6. Here is how it all comes together:
You get touched by a ghoul (Eww) and catch the virus. It has a 1 day incubation period, after which you roll your body to reduce the power. Any sort of other bonuses (Such as help from medical assistance) is reduced by 6, so you're unlikely to get much help from anything short of the very best medicine. Now, average person has a body of 3, so will get about 1 hit on average, reducing the power to 7. They then lose .1 essence because of the disease. At this point they are a carrier but not yet a ghoul (Which I suppose means they can transmit through blood, but likely not contact or even saliva yet). Now, another 24 hours later, the disease kicks in again. You roll body, average joe reduces the power to 6, and loses another .1 essence. After 7 days and .7 essence lose, day 8 rolls around, the power is down to 1, and the final hit reduces the power to 0. At this point you do not lose another .1 essence. You are still a carrier until 10 days have passed, but you are no longer at risk of actually becoming a ghoul (Because in order for HMHVV III to turn you into a ghoul, it must drain a full point of essence and still be active (have a power over 1)). After day ten passes, so long as the power has already been reduced to 0, you don't become a ghoul and the virus dies in your system. You've lost some essence from the ordeal, but survived.

So yes, if you actually read the rules and follow them properly, only the weak and sickly will be turned into a ghoul by HMHVV III, everyone else will just take an essence hit. Since there is no knowledge of an 'essence' number in SR, people don't realize just how much it cost them to touch that ghoul, and so that is why the bounty is so low.

[Muspellsheimr]

Entirely incorrect. Go read the Pathogen rules again - the Power is cumulative.

Breakdown:

Day 1: Power 8. Joe Average achieves 1 Hit, reducing Power to 7. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 2: Power 8+7=15. Joe Average achieves a remarkable 3 Hits, reducing the Power to 12. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 3: Power 8+12=20. Joe Average craps out with 0 Hits, for 20 Power. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 4: Power 8+20=28...

Do I need to continue? Also note that if you somehow avoid turning into a Ghoul in your first "infection episode", you have still lost a significant amount of Essence. More importantly, you turn into a Ghoul when you have lost 1.0 Essence due to the virus, not due to a single episode of infection.

This is the reason that even at my suggested Power 5, -2 Penetration, the disease is still very dangerous. Reduce the Power to 2, and if you have not adjusted the Vector, it still results in Zombie Apocalypse within a month.


Edit: Forgot to mention that if you somehow manage to reduce the Power to 0, the only result is you do not suffer the symptoms for that single test. The disease continues for a minimum of 10 days with cumulative power. Only after that point is the Power no longer cumulative, & thus ends if you reduce the Power to 0 as described in the above post.

[Weaver95]

Now, average person has a body of 3, so will get about 1 hit on average, reducing the power to 7. They then lose .1 essence because of the disease. At this point they are a carrier but not yet a ghoul (Which I suppose means they can transmit through blood, but likely not contact or even saliva yet).

Nope - according to your strict interpretation of the disease rules, if you've got the disease and it's active, you can pass it along to others just as if you were a ghoul yourself. So under your hypothetical situation, one ghoul can touch off a cascade of infections. It'll grow exponentially too since symptoms don't appear until after the first disease resistance test - which takes an entire day. so anyone who gets touched by a ghoul is now carrying the ghoul strain of the virus and everyone they touch will be infected as well.

And even after they're affected by the disease (i.e. take their first disease resistance test) they are STILL able to infect people. Ghoul disease doesn't incapaciate it's victims. Oh it frags 'em up seriously bad, but they can (theoretically) still move around and infect other people. Vampirism, on the other hand, puts you into a coma for a couple days while the disease transforms you (then you wake up hungry and looking for blood and souls to consume).

Again - all the data indicates that, according to strict interpretation of the rules, ACHE should be the racoon city Hive in about 2 days after a ghoul manages to slime it's way through the sewer tunnels.

[Karoline]

Darn, I missed that it was cumulative.

Alright, so you are basically screwed unless you have an amazing body score and a bunch of resistance to help you out.

I still think it is fairly unclear as to at what point you can pass it on again by simple touch. I would think that until it completely infects you (become a ghoul) it could only be passed on by contact with your blood.

I would think the HMHVV III having to wait until the victim is fully turned into a ghoul to pass on by touch would be the main thing stopping zombie Apocalypse. Even then, your right, a single ghoul managing to find its way into a city could infect alot of people, though I still figure that anyone who has HMHVV III (But isn't a ghoul yet) is either given amazing medical care or shot.

[Weaver95]

I still think it is fairly unclear as to at what point you can pass it on again by simple touch. I would think that until it completely infects you (become a ghoul) it could only be passed on by contact with your blood.

the ONLY way this works is if 'contact' infection means 'contact with blood and/or saliva'. simple skin to skin contact infection would result in massive outbreaks of ghouls within any given major urban population center. It would also result in worldwide zombie apocalypse within about 6 months.

I'd also make the further assumption that HMHVV cannot live outside of a host for very long. perhaps 20 minutes or so at most.

[Traul]

Ghouls themselves might be the best defence against pandemia: most of the people they touch do not live long enough to contaminate anybody.

[Karoline]

the ONLY way this works is if 'contact' infection means 'contact with blood and/or saliva'. simple skin to skin contact infection would result in massive outbreaks of ghouls within any given major urban population center. It would also result in worldwide zombie apocalypse within about 6 months.

I'd also make the further assumption that HMHVV cannot live outside of a host for very long. perhaps 20 minutes or so at most.

RAW specifically states that it includes contact with the ghoul itself, which would indicate its own skin. What RAW does not state is that someone carrying HMHVV III that hasn't yet transformed into a ghoul can pass it on by -any- means at all (I just figure blood would still have it). So yeah, just don't touch their blood (Which is generally avoided anyway) and you'll be fine. This is what prevent zombie apocalypse, the fact that only a small portion get infected and then not treated before their time is up, and that they can't in turn infect anyone for 10 days.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't still overpowered, but you don't have everyone in a building infected in ten seconds.

Edit: This does make the fact that some countries want to give ghouls citizenship very scary, because then there would be a very serious risk of infecting other people by mistake.

Edit2:

Ghouls themselves might be the best defence against pandemia: most of the people they touch do not live long enough to contaminate anybody.

Good point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Weaver95]

RAW specifically states that it includes contact with the ghoul itself, which would indicate its own skin. What RAW does not state is that someone carrying HMHVV III that hasn't yet transformed into a ghoul can pass it on by -any- means at all (I just figure blood would still have it). So yeah, just don't touch their blood (Which is generally avoided anyway) and you'll be fine. This is what prevent zombie apocalypse, the fact that only a small portion get infected and then not treated before their time is up, and that they can't in turn infect anyone for 10 days.

remember - you can start transforming into a ghoul within a DAY after making your first disease test. according to the rules, that means you are infectious from that point forward. And since ghouls aren't incapacatated during their transformation, they can wander around touching, sweating, crying and puking on everyone around them, thus infecting them as well. One ghoul riding the subway during rush hour would infect an entire train worth of victims. who would go home and infect their friends/family/neighbor/coworkers. who would then spread the infection still further.

As currently written, the HMHVV rules equate to full on zombie apocalypse within about a year from first infection.

[Karoline]

No you can't. You transform when you lose 1 essence, and not before then. And while you can be up and about, there are about a half dozen debilitating side effects, most of which basically say "You aren't going anywhere buddy."

If you want to keep it playable with RAW, just figure on the fact that the virus can only be transferred by blood until the person has fully transformed into a ghoul. Problem solved just like that. A ghoul is still a big problem if he gets loose in the middle of a city, but at worse some people go to the hospital and suck on meds for a while and the ghoul is quickly killed (This might explain the whole 'there is a bounty on ghouls' thing.)

[Weaver95]

No you can't. You transform when you lose 1 essence, and not before then. And while you can be up and about, there are about a half dozen debilitating side effects, most of which basically say "You aren't going anywhere buddy."

pain and nausea, which while totally uncool aren't as bad as paralysis (which WOULD stop you in your tracks). And the rules make no distinction between transformation and infection - according to the rules, it is entirely possible to be still fighting the disease and still infect others by touch alone. which again, does not make sense.

the only way this works is if ghouls only pass the infection along via contact with blood and/or bodily fluids. mere touch alone is insufficent. If that were the case, SR4 would be Resident Evil all over again.

If you want to keep it playable with RAW, just figure on the fact that the virus can only be transferred by blood until the person has fully transformed into a ghoul. Problem solved just like that. A ghoul is still a big problem if he gets loose in the middle of a city, but at worse some people go to the hospital and suck on meds for a while and the ghoul is quickly killed (This might explain the whole 'there is a bounty on ghouls' thing.)

except that again, the rules themselves are working against your interpretation here. For example - in Augmentation, pg 131 the rules for influenza state that oubreaks of superflu (i'm paraphrasing here) are power 6. But the baseline power of HMHVV III is power 8. POWER 8! it's more powerful than the 1917-1918 swine flu epidemic! And it's spread by mere touch alone. compare the two disease again - superflu (the power 6 version) has a penetration of 0. But ghoul fever has a -6 pen. Not to mention ghoul fever has a longer incubation period, thus allowing someone who's been infected to go spread the disease to others before he gets hit with the first symptoms. so ghoul fever spreads rapidly, is vastly more powerful than the superflu and eats antibiotics for lunch and asks for seconds.

[Karoline]

Yeah, I happened to read that about influenza and noticed how much more benign it is than HMHVV III. But like I said, there still isn't anything in the rules that suggests someone can transfer HMHVV III by touch at any point before they have become a full fledged ghoul, which is the only way that the disease makes any kind of sense as not being instant RE.

There are three real options. You play it RAW and accept that an infected can't pass the disease on by touch until they are full ghouls (Because it never states anywhere that it can be transferred in any way before the full transformation), or you change how the disease works so that it must be contact with blood/saliva only, or you just make it much much weaker.

Also, with pain and nausia, I suppose they -could- walk around, but they aren't real likely to (Incapacitated half the time, suffer double wound modifiers, and severe pain)

Like I said, multiple ways to deal with it so that SR doesn't become RE and I'll just leave it at that for now.

Edit: Though admittedly it could be fun to play an RE style SR game that runs with the 'zombie outbreak' policy. Maybe have the PCs be naturally immune to HMHVV III

Edit2: Actually, I think I might just have to run with that idea now...

[Weaver95]

Yeah, I happened to read that about influenza and noticed how much more benign it is than HMHVV III. But like I said, there still isn't anything in the rules that suggests someone can transfer HMHVV III by touch at any point before they have become a full fledged ghoul, which is the only way that the disease makes any kind of sense as not being instant RE.

The rules make no distinction on it it either way - but the rules certainly heavily imply that someone currently suffering from an infection can still pass it on to others in the same way that they themselves were infected. which in the case of HMHVV III means touch.

Like I said, multiple ways to deal with it so that SR doesn't become RE and I'll just leave it at that for now.

I'm going to assume the rules were not carefully edited with rates of infection in mind and modify them accordingly. keep in mind that it is STILL easy to be exposed to HMHVV III during combat. A ghoul bite could do it, as could any sustained close quarters hand to hand combat with one of the infected. But touch alone wouldn't be enough. sexual contact (ewww) of course would still count as exposure.



And I ain't gonna touch the rules for being born infected. you'd have to be very very drunk indeed to nail a ghoul chick after a long night in the bar.

Edit: Though admittedly it could be fun to play an RE style SR game that runs with the 'zombie outbreak' policy. Maybe have the PCs be naturally immune to HMHVV III

Edit2: Actually, I think I might just have to run with that idea now...

First off, i'm reading this thread and my MP3 player starts in with 'The man comes around' by Johnny Cash (aaaaa! zombies!) and second off - ghouls going around converting people in the ACHE would be Knight Errant's worst nightmare come true.

EDIT

the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ghouls infecting people in ACHE. imagine if the militant ghouls got in there and started...um...'recruiting' the bitter and desperate people locked up in there.

[Traul]

And I ain't gonna touch the rules for being born infected. you'd have to be very very drunk indeed to nail a ghoul chick after a long night in the bar.

Both parents could be ghouls.

[Weaver95]

Both parents could be ghouls.

I prefer to leave the details of ghoul sexuality to the imaginations of others.

ya sick freaks.

[Muspellsheimr]

Another comparison:
VITAS-3
Vector: Inhalation
Speed: 12 hours (4)
Penetration: -2
Power: 6
Nature: Viral
Effect: Stun Damage (converts to Physical when track exceeded), Malaise, Nausea


HMHVV III
Vector: Contact
Speed: 24 hours (10)
Penetration: -6
Power: 8
Nature: Retroviral
Effect: Pain, Nausea, Essence Loss, Transformation


VITAS-3 is described as one of the deadliest plagues in existence, with a mortality rate of 50% in humans. This is, in fact, roughly accurate with the Rules as Written at a glance.

The important aspects of the comparison have been outlined.

[Joe Chummer]

Re: Infected Diet

If I recall, RC says an Infected character can pay an extra 10% (or thereabouts) in their lifestyle cost to cover the their unique dietary requirements (although this alone won't offset whatever legalities you had to break to GET said dietary reqs...).

Also, not all vampires are bad. I recall some fluff in either a SR novel or sourcebook from way back in the day that had some guy talking about how he knew this one considerate vampire that, instead of feeding off live victims, he would buy metahuman blood from a blood bank.

Is this still a viable option for vampires (and thus banshees, nosferatu, and other blood-drinking essence drainers)? I understand that vampires actually drink essence, not blood; blood is just the transfer medium. So, does drinking blood-bank blood still count as containing some essence?

[Weaver95]

Is this still a viable option for vampires (and thus banshees, nosferatu, and other blood-drinking essence drainers)? I understand that vampires actually drink essence, not blood; blood is just the transfer medium. So, does drinking blood-bank blood still count as containing some essence?

well...according to the Runner's companion, pg 81 - vampire player characters pick up (among other things) a dietary requirement of of metahuman blood. this is in addition to essence loss. So as I understand it correctly, that means vampires have to feed on approx a pint of blood once a week or they start to starve (just like ghouls do if they don't eat metahuman flesh). Additionally, if a vampire doesn't feed on essence at least once a month, they'll start to suffer essence loss.

so it's blood AND souls that they have to feed on or suffer the consequences.

[Muspellsheimr]

Vampires require blood and Essence - it is not simply a transfer medium, it is a dietary requirement on it's own. Further, Essence Drain only functions against living sentient beings.

If you can convince your GM that the blood from a blood bank is both living & sentient, then it might work. This is very obviously a bullshit tactic though.

[Karoline]

Re: Infected Diet

If I recall, RC says an Infected character can pay an extra 10% (or thereabouts) in their lifestyle cost to cover the their unique dietary requirements (although this alone won't offset whatever legalities you had to break to GET said dietary reqs...).

Yeah, it is 30% and covers blood and/or meat.

[Weaver95]

Yeah, it is 30% and covers blood and/or meat.

expensive. probably makes the bookkeeping easier tho.

[Joe Chummer]

expensive. probably makes the bookkeeping easier tho.

Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.