Dual-Natured and Illusion Spells, What do they see? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Marwynn]

Take a Ghoul (please).

Will it simply "know" that something is a spell as it perceives astrally? Phantasm (not Trid Phantasm), for example, is a multi-sense Mana spell which I assume includes sound and smell (since Ghouls are blind) as well as the unnecessary visual stuff.

If a mage creates say a crowd of metahumans (bait) with the appropriate sounds and smells, but casts it astrally, would Ghouls sense this mundanely by the noise and their scents? Astrally they'd see the spell, they need to succeed in an Assensing test. Plus, can't create auras either.

Phantasm says that make one Spellcasting test and use the hits scored as the threshold to resist it. Does this apply to Assensing too?

What of Extended Masking?

Just thinking up of ways of getting past hordes of Ghouls without emptying a few (dozen) clips. (And yes, Levitating did enter my mind. Assuming they're all hand-to-hand that is.)

My current thought is using Physical Mask to look like a Ghoul, Mask to pretend to be a dual-natured Ghoul all the time, with a few spells hidden by Extended Masking.

[Karoline]

I wonder what could have possibly spurred this line of questioning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Marwynn]

Late night snacking that included popcorn and something else that I don't recall... I was also watching Shaun of the Dead while looking over your thread hehehe. Zombies, they're on my brain. Not literally but you know.

Besides I never really messed with Ghouls as a Mage.

[TBRMInsanity]

I would say if it is a non-physical illusion spell then it effects the targets mind and not their senses directly, so it would effect any assencing tests. If it is a physical illusion spell then it creates a physical object (with corresponding astral imprint) and as such would effect any assencing tests. Basically if the Ghoul could beat the spell then they would know the crowd is a spell and may even be able to trace the spell back to the caster (if it is sustained). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Spells only affect one plane, either the astral or the physical, so no matter whether the mind is fooled or the senses, a dual-natured being (that includes astrally perceiving awakened people) will automatically see through the illusion as he is present and perceiving both planes. Only ghouls don't because they are blind and cannot perceive normally.

AFAIK there are no illusion spells that are not immediately obvious on the astral plane.

[Screaming Eagle]

Fromt the hip insitnct at work and lacking my books:
It fails, even if the illusion spell makes your astral form invisable the illusion spell is not invisable - likewise all the phantasim people will have the astral sig of a spell, a rather obvious diference if I recall, you might fool a few of the dimmer ones though. ("Hey Ralph, is that funny looking thing a turkey dinner in the street? it smells like one." "I don't know Charlie, why don't you go check it out? I'm not hungry anyway."

Extending masking, if I can recall correctly, could cover the astral end - making your spell look like a tasty person rather then maifested mana, standard opposed tests apply.

However if you have extended masking (making this initiation #2 (or you've just bought them, an option I dislike)) and have bothered increasing your magic rating most ghouls with any self awareness would take one look at you and probably deside against messing with you, I don't recall "feral" being "suisidally stupid" (maybe I'm just remembering wrong but I play all but the most far gone ghouls as possesing the general cunning assosiated with bright predators animals) - seriouly, even magic 5-6 can wreck them pretty hard and that's assuming you don't astral scout and turn them all into dead with LOS mana spells

Edit - the Spell mask and Extended masking fixes the astral holes in your disguise - do remember that at point all the ghouls get 2 rolls to pierce you illusions - one to resist the spell the spell and the assesncing test for the Masking. How confident are you in your magic? Cause you will only get to mess this up once.

[Marwynn]

Indeed. It's a spell resistance check first, then assensing for them when they actually see it.

I'm confident that with 12+ dice to throw, possibly 14-16+, that the spell won't be resisted. But assensing is trickier and is the real trick.

By the way, these Ghouls are even dumber than normal and are tougher apparently. So I expect them to not exactly be awed by my Mage, even though it's 500 BP + 100 Karma. I'm thinking that even though they're astrally perceiving that it can't be as easy as my character going into astral projection and hurling Manaballs at them all.

Like a Barrens' full of these guys.

Frankly, I feel like Quickening Levitate at a high enough force to fly around and get the hell outta dodge. But there's probably some flying super-ghoul (Dracoforms?) that Karoline's going to whip out.

[Adarael]

Just a clarification: Dakka Dakka is right in that if you are dual natured you will see "through" the spell, but that's something of a misrepresentation. The Dual-Natured observer will, if they do not resist the spell, see the illusion. Due to the aura around the target, they will also see the spell as present (if they get any successes on an assensing roll, anyway) but won't know the physical characteristics of the person they're seeing. For example:

I cast Physical Mask on myself to make myself look like Harrison Ford (by way of example).
Dakka looks at me, and assenses me with some successes. He fails to roll enough successes to resist the illusion, however.
Dakka will see Harrison Ford, AND notice that Harrison Ford is under an illusion spell. He can very correctly surmise that I am not Harrison Ford, but since he failed to pierce the illusion, he won't know what I actually look like. He will, however, know what my aura looks like.

[Dakka Dakka]

Why endanger yourself when you want to hunt ghouls? There are better solutions.
a) Cast F1 manastatic where you stand. All normal (as in not mage, not adept etc.) ghouls will be blind near you. Then fry them when they get too close.
b) project to the ghouls's lair, but out of reach of their claws. Fire a Mana/Stun Ball, hide behind the next wall, repeat.
c) Have a spirit of man do b)

Hmm I'm not so sure about your interpretation, Adarael. Sure the observer would see the aura of the spell, the target's aura and the effect of the unresisted spell. So either the observer could deduce that the aura does not fit the physical representation, or he would recognize the next time he assenses the target without the mask, that this person has the same aura as what he thought to be Harrison Ford.

BTW Dakka Dakka is completely mundane. Even if he was awakened at some point, by now all his 'ware would have burnt him out.

[Marwynn]

A) They may be blind, but they have enhanced smell and hearing.
B) That's Plan A. But then again, Karoline is promising surprises. I'll be Manaballing from Astral by default I think.
C) This is part of Plan A actually.

I need ways to bypass hordes of Ghouls without Levitating my butt.

[Adarael]

Why endanger yourself when you want to hunt ghouls? There are better solutions.
a) Cast F1 manastatic where you stand. All normal (as in not mage, not adept etc.) ghouls will be blind near you. Then fry them when they get too close.
b) project to the ghouls's lair, but out of reach of their claws. Fire a Mana/Stun Ball, hide behind the next wall, repeat.
c) Have a spirit of man do b)

Yeah, that does seem the easy way to do it. Although the Mana Static would be less effective, since it would simply impose a 1-point penalty to astral perception checks - it's not a full blackout.

Hmm I'm not so sure about your interpretation, Adarael. Sure the observer would see the aura of the spell, the target's aura and the effect of the unresisted spell. So either the observer could deduce that the aura does not fit the physical representation, or he would recognize the next time he assenses the target without the mask, that this person has the same aura as what he thought to be Harrison Ford.

Well, when you assense a spell, you can determine what kind of spell it is, what force it is, and what the general effect is ("makes guy invisible," "disguises guy," or "creates full sense illusions"), but it doesn't let you know the exact nature of the physical end of the illusion (not "he is using physical mask to make his skin tone darker", because that is beyond the basics of assensing, and into the Analyze Mana spell). But since I am a human male in decent but not stellar physical condition, your assensing would indicate that I could very well be Harrison Ford if you didn't pierce the illusion, unless you had seen Harrison Ford and remembered his aura was definitely different than my own.

I'm not saying they wouldn't go, "Hey! That guy's not Harrison Ford, he's got a physical mask up!" I'm saying they couldn't ALSO say I have blond/gray hair, blue eyes, and white skin unless they had resisted the illusion spell. They'd know I was a big fat liar, but not necessarily HOW I was lying.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

These plans are fine until one of the ghouls shows that he is a mage, or worse, a master shedim.

[Karoline]

These plans are fine until one of the ghouls shows that he is a mage, or worse, a master shedim.

What is this shedim for which to inflict on my players?

I also really like the dracoform ghoul idea. Thanks for the help guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Embers]

Shedim are pains in the ass. They are free spirits that possess corpses so that they can stay on earth. There are regular shedim which are fairly large pains in the ass, and then there are Master Shedim who control regular Shedim and can open up Astral gateways to bring in more Shedim to act as servants. They wouldn't actually get along all that well with Ghouls though. Shedim need corpses to inhabit, the ghouls eat the corpses, or they turn them, either way, it leaves shedim unhappy, though I wonder if a ghoul would go after a Shedim possessed corpse for the meat.

In the long run, a zombie apocalypse would make shedim happy though since there wouldn't be any more people around to maintain the wards that became mandatory on cemeteries, morgues, etc. once the shedim started possessing corpses in 2061 (YOTC).

Page 154-5 of Street Magic.

[Marwynn]

Oh man! You're giving her ideas! Totally not what I intended for this thread hehe.

Oh great, I gave her the dracoform ghoul idea... Hmmm...

[Screaming Eagle]

Dracoform Shedim Possesed Ghoul. Give it sorsery and a small cross section of illusions and manipulations, the "Hidden Life" power and you are set for a major villan.

[Embers]

All Master Shedim have the Magician Quality and Spell Casting and Counter Spelling at their force by default.

[Screaming Eagle]

Sexy... I shall have to remember to use one at the next opertunity.

[Marwynn]

I got some questions here I hope you guys can answer.

Question 1: How does Mana Static affect Ghouls? (They have Magic 1 and are dual-natured)

Question 2: The Light Elemental effect (Laser, Nova), does it work against the Ghouls' Mild Allergy to Sunlight? A followup, supposing there was a "Sunlight" elemental effect, would Ghouls test with a -2 dice when resisting it?

Question 3: So you want to dispatch a small horde of Ghouls in a fairly urban location (alleyway, corridor, etc). Would you rather use an AoE Indirect Elemental Combat Spell or cast an Elemental Wall and use a complex action to move it over them? The Wall is only Force metres long and wide, 1 metre thick. AoE Combat Spells are of course Force radius. Drain is the same for both. Difference is, that the Elemental Wall can be sustained (through a Focus) and moved around smacking ghouls. I'm thinking a Blast Wall. Knock them down too.

Question 4: Any other particularly useful spells for Ghoul slaying you can think of?

[ravensoracle]

Oh great, I gave her the dracoform ghoul idea... Hmmm...

Thanks, now we are going to see some really nasty stuff. Come here I got a bull...uh... Present with your name on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Screaming Eagle]

1: How does Mana Static affect Ghouls? (They have Magic 1 and are dual-natured)
As I understand it redusing their magic rating to zero strips them fo their magical abilities including assencing - for the record this interpratation ticks me off as alot of the places ghouls are described hanging out would have background counts striking them "Blinder" - the only easy fix I have is to increase their magic ratings like I would any stat and having the "average" ghoul have a 3. This still leaves them vulnurable to mana static at a decent force but not to rather common passive background counts.

2: The Light Elemental effect (Laser, Nova), does it work against the Ghouls' Mild Allergy to Sunlight? A followup, supposing there was a "Sunlight" elemental effect, would Ghouls test with a -2 dice when resisting it?
Lazer does not trigger the allergy as I understand RAW - if you're GM wants it to power to him and yes, if you developed a spell that created sunlight this could trigger the allergy - again such a spell would require the OK of the GM at your table.

Question 3: So you want to dispatch a small horde of Ghouls in a fairly urban location (alleyway, corridor, etc). Would you rather use an AoE Indirect Elemental Combat Spell or cast an Elemental Wall and use a complex action to move it over them? The Wall is only Force metres long and wide, 1 metre thick. AoE Combat Spells are of course Force radius. Drain is the same for both. Difference is, that the Elemental Wall can be sustained (through a Focus) and moved around smacking ghouls. I'm thinking a Blast Wall. Knock them down too.
I had no idea you could move the walls once they are cast... holy bovines batman!
Ghoul cleaning I would favour manaball while astral, they will stand little to no chance, if you cannot go astral for "reasons" ie. I'm surrounded by hungry ghouls and do not feel comfortable leaving all this meat unatteneded - mana ball or bolt, pick up slaughter ghoul if this is turning into a reoccuring nightmare.

Question 4: Any other particularly useful spells for Ghoul slaying you can think of?
A illusion(mana) spell that masks or destroys your odor - SERIOUSLY. Not being able to beat their assencing tricks is one thing but scent goes around corners and beats LOS cause they smelled you sneaking up on them. Cure Disease as high as you can cast it and if there is a version you cast before getting infected do the same. As far as actual boom stick spells? Stun (anything), Mana (anything), Detect Ghoul (yes not a kill spell but DUDE!)

[Karoline]

Thanks, now we are going to see some really nasty stuff. Come here I got a bull...uh... Present with your name on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Oh come on, this thread is a learning experience for all of us. I just happen to be learning evil painful PC death related things.

Oh man I can't wait for someone to try that gun and run thing on the astral plane (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Marwynn]

Yep, apparently sustained spells (all of 'em) can be moved with a Complex Action. So I'm taking a Blast Wall and slamming it through them.

I was gonna Manaball and "fly" while Astrally Projecting but I just may find them astrally projecting too. So I'll settle on blowing them up. I have a Detect Life, Extended spell just so I can find them if I can't hear them.

Slaughter Infected seems like a good possibility. Force radius and all that for only F/2+1. However Manaball does the same thing against multiple targets... I may have to fight off other not-so-infected people. Then again, I can cast this amongst allies and have them not die.

I don't know if there's a stronger version of Cure Disease, or even if Cure Disease will work. I'm taking it regardless. (Also considering the expensive O-Cells Rating 9... 22500 and that's without a Nanohive.)


So Karoline, what's your ruling on Mana Static vs your IV Ghouls? Also, what of Trid Phantasm as an area-effect Physical Mask? It's multi-sense and replaces odours too I'm guessing, so if we can drag that along we'd smell like ghouls but not look like them (so as not to get shot by uninfected). They're Physical but they affect living creatures as well as the Mana spells.

I have a feeling my character's gonna get eaten fast. Can I come back as a mini-boss? Hehehehe.

[Karoline]

I have a feeling my character's gonna get eaten fast. Can I come back as a mini-boss? Hehehehe.

What else are dead PCs for?

Not sure about either the mana static or the illusions, I'll have to read up on them a bit as my magic knowledge isn't the greatest.

[Screaming Eagle]

I don't know if there's a stronger version of Cure Disease, or even if Cure Disease will work. I'm taking it regardless. (Also considering the expensive O-Cells Rating 9... 22500 and that's without a Nanohive.)

A correctly sadistic GM will have the ghouls - in addidtion to the OH F- off HMHVV III - be carriers for several other diseases of varring "oh noes", its one thing to be ready for the ghoul virus, its another to get a shorter intervalled paralitc disease that knocks you down the same day so you CAN'T go get treatment (or stop the ghouls from eatting you). I am simillarly unsure if cure disease helps on the HMHVV strains, but increase body should.