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> Dodge, Mechanic's Question
Paul
post Oct 8 2009, 01:06 AM
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Okay maybe I'm just being obtuse and reading too much into this but just how does Dodge work in Shadowrun 4? I won't go any further till I see some answers, and see just how wrong I've gone, or haven't gone.
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ShadowPavement
post Oct 8 2009, 01:52 AM
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Whenever there is a ranged attack the target gets to roll his Reaction attribute. If the defender gets more hits than the attacker the attack misses. - That's pretty much it. If you take the Full Defense action you can add your Dodge skill to your Reaction roll but loose your next action.

For a melee attack the target gets to roll their Reaction attribute + Dodge or Melee Weapon skill or Unarmed Combat for the defense. If you take the Full Defense action you can add your Dodge skill on top of what you would normally roll (yes, this means you could roll Reaction + Dodge + Dodge).

If the defender fails their reaction test then you move on to rolling body and armor to soak damage.

Hope that helps.
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Paul
post Oct 8 2009, 01:55 AM
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So much clearer than the book! Thanks a lot.
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Marwynn
post Oct 8 2009, 01:59 AM
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Ranged Attack Defense: Reaction
Ranged Attack Full Defense: Reaction + Dodge
Melee Attack Defense: Weapon Skill (Parry) + Reaction, Unarmed Combat (Block) + Reaction, Dodge (Dodge) + Reaction
Melee Attack Full Defense: Weapon Skill + Dodge + Reaction, or Dodge x 2 + Reaction

With specialties of course.


EDIT: Sorry, was finishing Glee while typing...
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Wacky
post Oct 8 2009, 04:04 AM
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Same as it works in real life; you push the car to get it moving while someone else turns the key in the ignition and hope the motor catches...

Sheesh, it was like Paul never watched Married with Children before...

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dirkformica
post Oct 8 2009, 09:01 AM
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Also Gymnastics can fill in for Dodge on most of those combos. Except for melee Dodge+Dodge.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 8 2009, 01:13 PM
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Actually the Full Parry action is REA+Weapon Skill+Weapon Skill. Full Dodge can be either REA+Dodge+Dodge or REA+Weapon Skill+Dodge (SR4A p. 160).
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Saint Sithney
post Oct 8 2009, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (dirkformica @ Oct 8 2009, 01:01 AM) *
Also Gymnastics can fill in for Dodge on most of those combos. Except for melee Dodge+Dodge.


I know full dodge is an interrupt action, but can you also call a gymnastic dodge anytime?
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 8 2009, 01:53 PM
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Full Defense can be used as an Interrupt Action. So all options are available, Full Dodge, Full Parry and Gymnastics Dodge.
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Straight Razor
post Oct 8 2009, 01:56 PM
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what if one person has a gun and the other a knife; and there with in hand to hand range of each other?
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 8 2009, 02:05 PM
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If the gunman attacks he gets -3 for being in melee range and the knifefighter defends with REA or REA+Dodge/Gymnastics on Full Defense.
If the Knifefighter attacks the gunman can either dodge (REA+Dodge), parry (REA+clubs)* or block (REA+Unarmed Combat), Full Defense uses the normal rules as posted earlier.

According to SR4 melee range is 2m.

*pistols can be used as improvised melee weapons. To be on the safe side make sure to have the melee hardening mod.
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Karoline
post Oct 8 2009, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 8 2009, 10:05 AM) *
If the gunman attacks he gets -3 for being in melee range and the knifefighter defends with REA or REA+Dodge/Gymnastics on Full Defense.
If the Knifefighter attacks the gunman can either dodge (REA+Dodge), parry (REA+clubs)* or block (REA+Unarmed Combat), Full Defense uses the normal rules as posted earlier.

According to SR4 melee range is 2m.

*pistols can be used as improvised melee weapons. To be on the safe side make sure to have the melee hardening mod.


Oh Dakka Dakka, you and your intimate knowledge of the combat rules. Just to clarify, non-pistol type guns can also be used as improvised melee weapons as well. 2m seems a bit far for melee range... then again I suppose most weapons have a reach of 1, which is 1m (If I remember right) so that isn't so odd.

What happens when a character has reach of 3 or 4 or even more? (Troll wielding certain weapons, dwarf wielding a monofilament whip) Do they still have to close to 2m to force someone into melee combat or can they extend the melee range to their reach? This could be really important if a troll with elongated arms wielding a monofilament whip is facing off against a gunman (To throw that -3 penalty at the gunman from a fairly impressive range).
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Marwynn
post Oct 8 2009, 04:36 PM
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Also there's the +2 Point Blank bonus, if he's within 1 metre.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 8 2009, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 8 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Just to clarify, non-pistol type guns can also be used as improvised melee weapons as well.
Totally correct. I should have written firearms. And in the case of a rifle with bayonet, Blades is used instead of clubs.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 8 2009, 06:26 PM) *
2m seems a bit far for melee range...
Actually I thought 2m was a littl bit close. You can easily bridge 2m in Unarmed combat. A step forward and an extended leg and you're there.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 8 2009, 06:26 PM) *
then again I suppose most weapons have a reach of 1, which is 1m (If I remember right) so that isn't so odd.
I never heard about that conversion. For reach 1 weapons this may make sense, but Combat axes, Claymores or Nodachi are not 2m long.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 8 2009, 06:26 PM) *
What happens when a character has reach of 3 or 4 or even more? (Troll wielding certain weapons, dwarf wielding a monofilament whip) Do they still have to close to 2m to force someone into melee combat or can they extend the melee range to their reach? This could be really important if a troll with elongated arms wielding a monofilament whip is facing off against a gunman (To throw that -3 penalty at the gunman from a fairly impressive range).
I was thinking about a houserule making the threatened area a sphere with a radius of (2 + reach)m. But since melee especially with weapons doesn't happen very often, and this almost makes a combat map necessary, I probably won't bother.

@Marwynn: The Point-Blank Bonus is optional.
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CollateralDynamo
post Oct 8 2009, 05:42 PM
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I was under the impression that the point-blank bonus assumed a near-hostage level situation. As in, I quite literally can't miss, my gun is on your chest.
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Karoline
post Oct 8 2009, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (CollateralDynamo @ Oct 8 2009, 12:42 PM) *
I was under the impression that the point-blank bonus assumed a near-hostage level situation. As in, I quite literally can't miss, my gun is on your chest.


Yeah, otherwise it makes the 'attacker in melee' penalty fairly moot. I'd agree that this is basically a case where the target can't move and you have the barrel almost literally pressed to their flesh (Or armor). This wouldn't happen in the course of a normal fight because your opponent wouldn't stand still long enough for you to get that level of bead on them, but would be great to simulate the 'I have a gun to your head, you move you die' sort of situation, or the 'unconscious/maybe dead guy laying on the floor and you put the barrel to their head and pull just to make sure they aren't getting back up' scenario.

If anything, aren't guns almost harder to use when you're -really- close to a moving target? Melee combat aside I figure that at that point you have to make massive shifts in your aim to compensate for their movement as opposed to just twitching the barrel of your gun a centimeter or so in the correct direction.

I've never fired a gun on a moving target, so I have no idea, but that is how it always seems to work out for me in video games, really close targets are hard to get a bead on because you have to make huge adjustments to your aim while mid range stuff you just have to adjust a bit to keep them in line. At far range you have the problem of the movements have to be -really- small and you have to be -really- accurate.
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Paul
post Oct 9 2009, 08:46 AM
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Once again keep in mind the game is not an accurate simulation of reality.
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Karoline
post Oct 9 2009, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 9 2009, 03:46 AM) *
Once again keep in mind the game is not an accurate simulation of reality.


*gasp* It isn't? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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MulletByNature
post Oct 9 2009, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 8 2009, 06:17 PM) *
Totally correct. I should have written firearms. And in the case of a rifle with bayonet, Blades is used instead of clubs.


I thought it was Exotic Melee (Polearms)
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 9 2009, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (MulletByNature @ Oct 9 2009, 06:19 PM) *
I thought it was Exotic Melee (Polearms)
That's what I thought originally as well, and why it never occured to me to put a bayonet on a firearm. But Arsenal states that no matter whether the bayonet is affixed on a rifle or not the ensemble is used with Blades. Personally I would even put polearms into the Blades category, since the difference between a sword and a polearm is not much bigger than between a knife and an axe, even cyberspurs are in that category.
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Apathy
post Oct 9 2009, 06:01 PM
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By that criteria, the way you weild a rifle with fixed bayonet is closer to that of a jo staff (clubs) than to a sword, and there are more similarities between a sword/long knife and an escrima stick than between a sword and axe. Maybe the distinction shouldn't be Blunt vs Edged, but instead should be One-Handed Melee vs Two-Handed Melee?
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Sponge
post Oct 9 2009, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 8 2009, 04:57 PM) *
Yeah, otherwise it makes the 'attacker in melee' penalty fairly moot.


They only cancel each other out (almost - still a net -1) if you're actually shooting at the person you're in melee with. If you're shooting at a distant target (like the guy you were hired to kill) while someone else is in melee with you (like that guy's bodyguard) then the penalty is still very much in force.
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cndblank
post Oct 10 2009, 03:06 AM
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QUOTE (ShadowPavement @ Oct 7 2009, 07:52 PM) *
If the defender gets more hits than the attacker the attack misses.



One minor quibble, ties go to the defender. The attacker has to have more success than the defender to hit.

For that matter, if you hit your target, then the damage will always be at least one more than the base damage because you have to have one net hit.


Look at the example on page 154 of SR4A.
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cndblank
post Oct 10 2009, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Oct 9 2009, 12:28 PM) *
They only cancel each other out (almost - still a net -1) if you're actually shooting at the person you're in melee with. If you're shooting at a distant target (like the guy you were hired to kill) while someone else is in melee with you (like that guy's bodyguard) then the penalty is still very much in force.



And while a pistol is very easy to use while in a melee, a rifle is pretty hard to shoot someone with if they are right on top of you.
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Triggerz
post Oct 10 2009, 12:20 PM
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Hmmm... Houserule suggestion. When you are engaged in melee, instead of applying a -3 penalty to the Ranged Attack test, why not simply allow the defender to defend using Melee Combat rules and options? The idea being that the defender can grab your and keep the gun pointing away from him (or something like that) rather than simply dodge, if he is within melee range. The Firefight martial art could add bonus dice to Ranged Attacks in melee instead of negating the penalty. Just throwing that out there...
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