[X] My Assistant

[TheMidnightHobo]

I was wondering if possession-based traditions can invoke a spirit. 'Cause, y'know, that'd be NUTS.

[Mordinvan]

The only significant difference between possession and materialization traditions seem to be just that one power the spirits have. I see no reason you can't invoke.

[Dahrken]

You can invoke. The trick is that the spirits you invoke cannot Materialize and need to Possess a suitable vessel to be able to fully interact with the physical world.

[TheMidnightHobo]

Troll Shaman Self-Possessed with a Greater Form Spirit... I see crazy things happening...

[Dragnar]

What exactly? Invoking isn't that hot for non-optimised characters to begin with (thanks to the absurd drain) and it's actually worse for possession traditions, as you don't get a free reach bonus (the spirit is bigger, which doesn't help in the physical world and the vessel is just as big as before).

[TheMidnightHobo]

He'd basically be superman. XD It's ridiculous. I know it's not the most absurd thing you can do, but still.

[Apathy]

He'd basically be superman. XD It's ridiculous. I know it's not the most absurd thing you can do, but still.

The limit on invoking spirits is the heavy drain you suffer. Only heavily twinked characters can expect to walk away from invoking a F8 spirit without suffering drain. For the same drain risk you could summon (but not invoke) a significantly larger spirit to possess you. Generally you'll be better off with the higher force than a lower level invoked spirit.

[pbangarth]

The limit on invoking spirits is the heavy drain you suffer. Only heavily twinked characters can expect to walk away from invoking a F8 spirit without suffering drain. For the same drain risk you could summon (but not invoke) a significantly larger spirit to possess you. Generally you'll be better off with the higher force than a lower level invoked spirit.

Well, the real drain comes in the Binding Test(intending to Invoke), not in the Invoking Test. The twinking that can really come into play is when you roll well on the Invoking Test and get lots of extra points on the physical stats, which then beef up the physical bonus to the host when possessed. yes, you do need to roll well.

Even if you don't, Invoking brings a lot of goodies that high Force doesn't, such as LOS powers becoming LOS(A) powers that can cover an area and ignore friendlies the way smartlink can.

[Ustio]

Great Form plant spirit

no more need be said

[Adarael]

Yagé gonna come and getchoo!

[Dragnar]

The twinking that can really come into play is when you roll well on the Invoking Test and get lots of extra points on the physical stats, which then beef up the physical bonus to the host when possessed. yes, you do need to roll well.

Just summoning a spirit of 50% higher force will make a possessed mage reach his attribute maximums anyways, so he doesn't even get those points most of the time.
Possession offers some neat and powerful tricks, but this isn't one of them. Invoking is strictly worse for possession traditions than for materializing traditions.

[TheMidnightHobo]

Oh right; I forgot about racial maximums... Well, possession still seems kinda nuts.

[Apathy]

Wasn't there some guidance that racial max didn't apply to possession buffs?

[JoelHalpern]

Wasn't there some guidance that racial max didn't apply to possession buffs?

Yes. From what has been posted officially, there is no effective max. (There is a max, but as far as I can tell it is never a limit.)

Yours,
Joel

[TheMidnightHobo]

Yes. From what has been posted officially, there is no effective max. (There is a max, but as far as I can tell it is never a limit.)

Yours,
Joel

So it is as crazy as I thought it was!

[BishopMcQ]

From my experience, Possession traditions require a lot more planning in the short term than Materialization traditions. After initiating for Channeling to keep control and Invoking, then things start getting wild. Once you are able to invest yourself with a Force 8 or so, you can shrug full auto fire, sniper rounds etc. At that point, your biggest danger is going to be a mage with Banishing, but the high Force means that there will likely be a high DV to soak for each attempt.

[pbangarth]

Just summoning a spirit of 50% higher force will make a possessed mage reach his attribute maximums anyways, so he doesn't even get those points most of the time.
Possession offers some neat and powerful tricks, but this isn't one of them. Invoking is strictly worse for possession traditions than for materializing traditions.

Whether or not it is worse for possession traditions than for materialization traditions does not tell us whether or not it is a good thing in and of itself. Just because one earns $200,000 a year, doesn't mean that someone else's salary of $150,000 a year is of no use.

Although you speak of Summoning a spirit of 50% higher Force, I assume you use the 50% higher Force to match the Drain of Binding and Invoking a spirit, which is where the 50% increase comes. Simply possessing oneself with a Summoned spirit has its advantages, specifically speed and less Drain than Binding, but the summoner does not get the advantages of a bound spirit. The Drain from Binding a 50% higher Force spirit is the same, on average, as the Drain from Binding with intent to Invoke. If we are comparing Bound spirit to Bound, Invoked spirit, then the following applies.

The Attribute maximum in Possession is (character Attribute + spirit Attribute) * 1.5. So, Possessing an Attribute 3 mage with a Force 6 spirit always gives Attribute 9. For the same Drain, Possessing an Attribute 3 mage with an Invoked Force 4 spirit gives Attribute 7 plus extras up to a maximum of 10. This doesn't seem significantly higher, and in fact in some cases the Invoking Test will not result in a combined Attribute as high as 9. But ...this is available to the mage even if he can only summon up to Force 4 spirits.

Invoking allows the mage to access many of the advantages of a spirit beyond his Summoning limit, such as an extra optional power and higher Attribute values. It also allows for a spirit to spread its LOS powers into an area, for example to Engulf every opponent, rather than just one. It makes the spirit harder to Banish. It gives the spirit a unique power that is really spiffy.

Invoking rocks, even for Possession traditions.

[Dragnar]

Whether or not it is worse for possession traditions than for materialization traditions does not tell us whether or not it is a good thing in and of itself. Just because one earns $200,000 a year, doesn't mean that someone else's salary of $150,000 a year is of no use.

Absolutely correct. I stand by the fact that invoking is not all that hot to begin with and gets even worse with possession traditions, though. I'll explain below.

Invoking allows the mage to access many of the advantages of a spirit beyond his Summoning limit, such as an extra optional power and higher Attribute values. It also allows for a spirit to spread its LOS powers into an area, for example to Engulf every opponent, rather than just one. It makes the spirit harder to Banish. It gives the spirit a unique power that is really spiffy.

Invoking rocks, even for Possession traditions.

- You don't get an extra optional power. You get the one optional power back that summoning a regular spirit 3 points of force higher would have given you anyways.
- If you actually allow the maximum to be calculated from an amalgamated "magician-human hybrid" then yes, you can technically get higher attribute values. That way lies madness, though, so you really shouldn't.
- If an opponent tries to banish your spirit instead of simply attacking, then that's a good thing! Banishing is really bad, so any way that entices your enemies into doing that is better than having them manabolt you instead.

Basically you get Engulf as an Area-Effect, which is kinda nice (but you lose a few attack dice and DV in the process, so grenades usually work better) and the unique power, which is usually the only reason to invoke at all.
You lose effectiveness in all other powers (thanks to the lower force) and are a lot more vulnerable, as the really important hardened armor is now quite a lot lower.
That's a reasonable, but not especially powerful substitute, if you would get it for free, but you actually have to pay a metamagic for it. Compare to quickened "increase Reflexes", "Increase Willpower" and "Increase Drain Attribute" for Quickening or Extended Masking or double the counterspelling dice thanks to Shielding and Invoking is actually a bottom-tier choice.

[TheMidnightHobo]

I've seen several people on dumpshock refer to spirits as having hardened armor before, and I can't find any mention of it in my books. Where is it at?

[pbangarth]

- You don't get an extra optional power. You get the one optional power back that summoning a regular spirit 3 points of force higher would have given you anyways.

You do get an extra if you summon the biggest you can and then Invoke.

- If you actually allow the maximum to be calculated from an amalgamated "magician-human hybrid" then yes, you can technically get higher attribute values. That way lies madness, though, so you really shouldn't.

So, Invoking sucks, except for the parts that don't suck, which you shouldn't allow?

- If an opponent tries to banish your spirit instead of simply attacking, then that's a good thing! Banishing is really bad, so any way that entices your enemies into doing that is better than having them manabolt you instead.

Having a higher Force spirit in you will not entice Banishing attempts.

Basically you get Engulf as an Area-Effect, which is kinda nice (but you lose a few attack dice and DV in the process, so grenades usually work better) and the unique power, which is usually the only reason to invoke at all.

You are not losing the attack dice if you are using all the spirit you can summon, anyway. And if you want to use grenades, you need the skill, otherwise you are bound to hurl a few into your own party. Engulf doesn't miss. It may not hit them, but it won't hit your guys, either.

You lose effectiveness in all other powers (thanks to the lower force) and are a lot more vulnerable, as the really important hardened armor is now quite a lot lower.

Not (broken record here) if you are summoning the most you can summon anyway.

That's a reasonable, but not especially powerful substitute, if you would get it for free, but you actually have to pay a metamagic for it. Compare to quickened "increase Reflexes", "Increase Willpower" and "Increase Drain Attribute" for Quickening or Extended Masking or double the counterspelling dice thanks to Shielding and Invoking is actually a bottom-tier choice.

All that Quickening going on costs extra Karma, every time. A quickened spell is dropped, you need to spend more Karma. A spirit is blasted/banished, you summon another one. Extended Masking takes two Initiations to get to. Hmm... OK, a Possession mage would go Channeling first before Invoking, but still. I will grant that Shielding is a spiffy Metamagic. But for any one of these, why can't you have both?

I agree with you that there are many metamagics which may be more appropriate for a mage focused in a particular direction. I believe that a mage concentrating on spirits, even possession, Invoking is an important and useful metamagic. I wish there were a quick way to test our assertions. Otherwise we will just go around in circles.

[Dreadlord]

I've seen several people on dumpshock refer to spirits as having hardened armor before, and I can't find any mention of it in my books. Where is it at?

Shadowrun 4 Anniversary edition p. 295(Big Black Book p. 288), Immunity to Normal Weapons. It states that against Normal Weapons, a spirit's Armor equals Force * 2, PLUS this armor has the Hardened Power.

[TheMidnightHobo]

Shadowrun 4 Anniversary edition p. 295(Big Black Book p. 288), Immunity to Normal Weapons. It states that against Normal Weapons, a spirit's Armor equals Force * 2, PLUS this armor has the Hardened Power.

Ah, that'd be why, I'm using the old SR4 book. Wow. So a force 6 spirit would be immune to anything that didn't do at least 12 damage, if I'm reading it right?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, that'd be why, I'm using the old SR4 book. Wow. So a force 6 spirit would be immune to anything that didn't do at least 12 damage, if I'm reading it right?

Correct...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Absolutely correct. I stand by the fact that invoking is not all that hot to begin with and gets even worse with possession traditions, though. I'll explain below.


- You don't get an extra optional power. You get the one optional power back that summoning a regular spirit 3 points of force higher would have given you anyways.
- If you actually allow the maximum to be calculated from an amalgamated "magician-human hybrid" then yes, you can technically get higher attribute values. That way lies madness, though, so you really shouldn't.
- If an opponent tries to banish your spirit instead of simply attacking, then that's a good thing! Banishing is really bad, so any way that entices your enemies into doing that is better than having them manabolt you instead.

Basically you get Engulf as an Area-Effect, which is kinda nice (but you lose a few attack dice and DV in the process, so grenades usually work better) and the unique power, which is usually the only reason to invoke at all.
You lose effectiveness in all other powers (thanks to the lower force) and are a lot more vulnerable, as the really important hardened armor is now quite a lot lower.
That's a reasonable, but not especially powerful substitute, if you would get it for free, but you actually have to pay a metamagic for it. Compare to quickened "increase Reflexes", "Increase Willpower" and "Increase Drain Attribute" for Quickening or Extended Masking or double the counterspelling dice thanks to Shielding and Invoking is actually a bottom-tier choice.

Here is the disconnect, from what I see though... if you are summoning a Force 6 Spirit, why would I NOT Summon and Invoke/Bind a Force 6 Spirit, assuming that I could do so?

Yes, I MIGHT be able to summon a force 9 spirit, though the drain would now be physical, and why exactly would I do that? Even at Force 6 Invoked, the Drain is still Stun, and I now have a more powerful force 6 spirit than you do... assuming that you actually summon the Force 9 spirit and don't stroke out, then youy have a very powerful spirit, but it is not bound and you do not have access to all of the bound spirit abilities... the Force 6 Invoked and bound spirit (still stun drain remember) is infinitely more useful than your force 9 spirit summoned on the instant...

I am going for the invoked spirit every time if I have the option...

Keep the Faith

[Muspellsheimr]

The Attribute maximum in Possession is (character Attribute + spirit Attribute) * 1.5.

So, Invoking sucks, except for the parts that don't suck, which you shouldn't allow?

It might be a good idea for you (& most in this thread) to actually read the Possession rules?

I will give you a hint:

If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s
Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.

No mention of increasing Augmented Maximums either. Go figure.