 New Adept Powers, What non-canon powers do you use? |
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 Feb 5 2004, 03:21 AM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
the way i define the laws of magic is that they make sense within the limits of the rules. if the rules defy what would normally be logical, you make up an excuse to cover for them--it's magic, the whole point of it is that we don't really understand it.
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Feb 5 2004, 06:21 AM
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#52
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Don't bother looking Kagetenshi, it's not there. |
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Feb 5 2004, 01:21 PM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This is not a question of redirecting. Flames spouting 1" from you and being "redirected" away from you still won't be good for your skin -- in fact, your skin will melt away soon enough. There are some ways you can deflect the problem: For example, you might decide that Elemental Magic fire and heat have really got nothing to do with the Real Thing. As such, magic can dictate exactly where every single joule of heat goes, and then elemental magic (or Elementals) never harm anything they do not specifically want to harm. But then the Area Attack Elemental Manips would give you a headache -- if all other elemental magic protects the caster from the spell as a part of the spell, then why don't these? All the other spells also affect every other creature in the area without discrimination, so your "area effect spells are designed to be indiscriminate" can't be the reason. Or slight modification of the above would be that elemental magic is not a "guided weapon", as it were, but only protect the caster. Which still causes serious trouble with the Area Elemental Manip spells. Or you could decide that it's just the "Caster" Elemental Manips that protect the caster from all the effects. But why the heck don't these spells then protect the caster from all other elemental harm of that type? Because every elemental magic heat particle is different, and the spell knows where that particular bit of heat originates from? That doesn't sound logical to me. Or maybe every bit of elemental magic heat is intelligent after all... Which doesn't sound too logical either. If elements produced by Manipulation spells are anything like the real thing, then nothing of the above works. And in that case, I'm stuck with all such Manipulations affecting the caster just the same.
There's probably a billion razors here, but that particular one is quite useless. If someone wishes for a spell with the effect of a Flame Aura but which wouldn't harm the caster, I'd have to do the math to decide what the drain would be on a spell that also gives the caster a limited immunity to heat -- up to the Force of the spell. Probably +2(S). In fact, several spells like this already exist for the medieval fantasy conversion, but I can't be bothered to check the Drains on those.
If you are fine with the thought that the GM has no idea what's going on, that's okay. I like to understand things. I see the possibility of me as a GM not understanding what the heck is going on in the game as potential trouble. [Edit]To clear that last one up: I cannot consider It's Maaa-aaagic as "understading". It has to be something that makes sense to me.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 5 2004, 01:26 PM |
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Feb 5 2004, 01:39 PM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
austere, if all the heat and flame is directed away from the caster, how is he going to get burned? like i said, if magic can pull energy across dimensional barriers, controlling that energy should be a snap. all the spell has to do is recognize the caster's aura and not go there. why doesn't that work with area-effect spells? because area-effect spells are designed specifically to affect everyone in an area. a caster could, i suppose, design an area effect that doesn't harm himself--just flip the modification for 'self only'--but it's more trouble than it's worth, most of the time.
the thing is, you're injecting descriptions into the spells that don't exist, especially in the case of single-target elemental manips. take the example of flamethrower--you say that it should burn the caster as he casts it. but what if my 'flamethrower' spell manifests as me flicking a match at someone, and lighting them on fire? why should i get burned? how is that at all logical? |
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Feb 5 2004, 01:50 PM
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#55
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Then the question is: Who is the fucking moron who didn't include the "Don't Harm The Caster" bit into Area-effect Elemental Manipulations? Because apparently this is not the slightest problem looking at magic either rules-wise or your logic-wise: Giving any spell the "Don't Harm The Caster" suggestion is extremely simple, apparently, and it doesn't change drain in any way whatsoever (as you can see from the Drain Codes of Flame Aura, etc).
This is what I have problems with. If it directs all the heat away from the caster, then why can the caster take damage from other sources of heat? And if it just directs the heat from the spell away from the caster, then how does the spell discern between the heat produced by mundane sources, and by all the different magical sources?
No, I did not. I said:
So if you want to describe the spell so that you actually breathe that flame, then you have some extra explaining to do, in my games. Of course, seeing as how there's nothing to suggest that there is an actual trail of flame from the caster to the target (the spell doesn't set flame to anything that is next to that trail), you could argue that the "breathe the flame" description of the spell Flamethrower wouldn't work anyway.
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Feb 5 2004, 02:17 PM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
simple. the flame aura spell defines a single target--the subject--and creates flames which are directed away from that subject. a fireball defines a single subject as well--the point at which the spell is aimed. in order for a fireball to not hurt the caster, that spell would have to include two subjects: the point of impact, and the caster. that makes it more complex, ergo harder to cast, ergo it's not done.
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Feb 5 2004, 02:38 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
So if you cast a Fireball on yourself, you aren't harmed? And all the energy created by any Manipulation spells is still intelligent enough not to go in any direction where the caster doesn't want it to? The problem with Flame Aura is not the flames themselves, but the heat they would radiate in every direction. If the flames were all directed outwards, there wouldn't be that much heat, but enough to cause serious burns in short order, and kill the caster if prolonged.
The breathing thing was a slight overreaction on my part. If you assume the flames of a dragon's breath to only spark when they are already out of the dragon's system, and they are blown out with enough force in a short enough blast, then the amount of heat radiated back to the dragon would not be very significant. [Edit]You could consider the Fireball to have a point-like source regardless of what it's cast at, perhaps. But that has a bunch of problems, such as that you'd be incapable of casting it at people. And you'd still have a far more complicated parameter for spells such as Flame Aura, because the spell would have to keep count of where all parts of the body are at all times, so that it always keeps the flames at the right distance and never directs them at other body parts. And the radiating heat bit would still cause the same trouble.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 5 2004, 02:43 PM |
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Feb 5 2004, 02:48 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Believe me, I'm shaving as fast as I can. Enough to make my skin bleed profusely. |
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Feb 5 2004, 04:09 PM
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#59
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Between the electrons Member No.: 465 |
Unless I'm mistaken, this thread was about adept powers, not spells.
Keeping that in mind, make it a requirement of the power 'flame aura' that you first get 'immunity to fire'. |
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Feb 5 2004, 04:17 PM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Hijacking isn't anything new. But yeah, if an adept character wanted flaming fists (or a flaming aura) in my games, he'd need something to protect him/herself against the effects. But there's no such thing as Immunity to Fire in canon Shadowrun available for either adepts or mages AFAIK. Temperature Tolerance is the closes thing that I know of. And against your hands exploding... Maybe Limited Armor (Blast) or Mystic Armor.
Anyone got an adept power that provides effective protection against elements? |
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Feb 5 2004, 05:06 PM
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#61
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
This Flame Aura stuff all sounds pretty absurd to me. I cannot fathom any reason for the books to include an Immolate Self spell. Besides, the spell says specifically how it works: it does damage to anyone who hits you and increases the power of your melee attacks. It doesn't say anything about doing damage to you, or setting your delicate gear on fire, or blinding you due to bright flames coming out of your face, or making you explode when you fall in the water, or any other half-baked extrapolation.
This reminds me of someone insisting that platelet factories with light stress cause SWIFT IRREVOCABLE DEATH, based on some extrapolation of the minor circulatory problems it's supposed to cause. |
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Feb 5 2004, 06:26 PM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That's fine. You can continue thinking that Flame Aura has absolutely nothing to do with heat or flames other than that it causes burns in living organisms of sufficient size that are brought into close vicinity of the target. I cannot, because that just sounds lame to me. Perhaps the easiest way to get rid of the problem would be for me to consider the Flame Aura spell (and everything related) to simply be a Cause Burns spell/power. With an optional Flames illusion.
The books also specifically say how the shot ammunition in SR work, and those make absolutely no fucking sense at all, so I changed them. The fact that this is magic we're talking about changes things, certainly. Because it is maaaaa-aaaagic, you can justify everything that way. I don't want to do that, I would prefer for magic to make sense as well. Or at least to have some basic level of causality. [Edit]Bugger. The spell description says "creates a rippling aura of flames around a subject's body, extending out a number of centimeters equal to the spell's successes." That's specifically how it works. Unfortunately.[/Edit]
The problem there is that it doesn't cause just minor circulatory problems. It causes really fricken huge circulatory problems. The kinds that, IRL, kill people dead. But I don't have problems with that, so no need to rekindle that argument. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 5 2004, 06:33 PM |
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Feb 5 2004, 06:50 PM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Between the electrons Member No.: 465 |
How's this?
Immunity to (Element) Cost: 4 Gives the adept complete immunity to a particular elemental effect (eg. fire, cold, electricity etc). Handle hot lead! Go swimming in liquid nitrogen! Hug a tesla coil and awe your fellow runners! |
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Feb 5 2004, 07:01 PM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That's the idea, yeah, but perhaps slightly extreme... Personally, I was thinking about:
Immunity to (Element) Cost: 1 per level Grants virtual Hardened Armor against (Element) at rating = level. 1 per level might be too high, 0.5 per level would be too low. 0.75 or 1. |
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Feb 5 2004, 08:07 PM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
1 Level = 1 point of hardened armor?
Against only one type of elemental attack? 1 point is way, way too much. .5 would be more along the lines of something I might be willing to spend for a specific defense. Now, if it worked against _all_ elemental attacks, then I'd concede the 1 point a level bit. -Siege |
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Feb 5 2004, 08:14 PM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You're right, just remembered that Mystic Armor only costs 0.5 points per level. Yeah, 1 point is probably too much. 0.5 might work better. I just wanted to keep the cost high, because what I definitely do not want is adepts who can swim in liquid nitrogen or hug a tesla coil.
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Feb 5 2004, 08:57 PM
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#67
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Even if the adept is completely immune to cold damage, that doesn't apply to the adept's gear. The temperature shock of jumping into a pool of liquid nitrogen should cause everything the adept is wearing to shatter very easily.
As a side note, you can design a Tesla cail that is harmless, but pretty. So hugging one of those is not suicidal. |
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Feb 5 2004, 09:16 PM
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#68
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That's true. So the way I figure things, a Flame Aura-like adept power would still be a very bad idea. The spell still works, because the spell can act as a barrier against the element.
I'll take your word for it. I know next to nothing about physics, especially electricity-related things. |
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Feb 5 2004, 09:29 PM
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#69
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Between the electrons Member No.: 465 |
I thought 4 was good... but .5 per level might be OK, too. at .5 per level, spending 4, you could get hit by up to a power 8 (element) based attack and still be good to go.
The thing is, I can't think of too many situations where being immune to cold or heat is actually going to be useful, unlike mystic armor. There are no cold-based weapons that I know of (canon, at least), no situations where runners should be face with the opportunity to swim across liquid nitro pools, and immunity to fire isn't going to do jack against anything but fire elementals and flame throwers (OK, it'll also protect you against fire-based elemental spells). I'm pretty sure explosive damage is mostly shrapnel, so it won't protect you from that, either. |
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Feb 5 2004, 09:36 PM
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#70
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You're certainly correct that it might not be extremely useful. Not enough to warrant people to take it often, anyway. Looking at it from that perspective, 0.5 per level is a lot better, and 1 per level for immunity to all elemental effects.
Explosions without significant inherent fragmentation (an Offensive Hand Grenade, for example) might be considered Blast elemental effects, but most weapons based on explosions indeed do most of their damage with shrapnel. The reason I don't want a high-cost absolute immunity power is that I want pools of liquid helium to be lethal regardless of any adept powers. Same goes for multi-megavolt kilo-ampere electric currents and 5-digit temperatures (Celsius, at least). Immunity to spells, tasers, flamethrowers, etc don't feel so bad. |
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Feb 5 2004, 09:38 PM
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#71
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeesh, austere. fine: "the flame aura spell defines a single target--the subject--and creates flames and heat which are directed away from that subject." better?
and how does the point-target thing keep you from casting fireball at people? you just define your point as being "on their nose" or whatever. |
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Feb 5 2004, 09:44 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Aus has already conceded the point, but I'm going to point out that at .5/level, even if an adept spent all six points of magic on Elemental Resistance: Cold, that gives the adept 12 points of armor against cold attacks.
That's an absurdly one-trick pony and even if the adept jumped into liquid nitrogen, he won't be able to do much else. And armor will only cut back on the power rating, not render him immune to all possible effects. He's still gotta roll some dice. -Siege |
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Feb 5 2004, 09:45 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeesh, mfb. No. That would still allow the spell to know exactly what is "good" heat and what is "bad" heat, and allow the "good" heat to reach the subject and would deflect any "bad" heat away from the caster. Changing the spell so that it actually protects against any extreme heat works far better for me. You're right in the latter part. Such problems are insignificant and are there regardless of how the area-effect Elemental Manipulations are defined.
Well, I did say Hardened Armor, so he won't have to roll dice if the Power of the attack is smaller than or equal to the rating. But I am coming to terms with how useless that power might be for most people. 1 point for Hardened Armor 1 against all elements might be more worth while, though still not particularly useful. Or you could drop the cost of the single-element version to 0.25. I always overprice things at first, because I'm really afraid that anything new I insert to the game will break the balance. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 5 2004, 09:51 PM |
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Feb 5 2004, 10:00 PM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
like i said, Austere, the spell monitors its own effects.
i still don't understand how the last part is a problem at all, insignificant or not. i mean, i'm not sure what you're getting at. |
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Feb 5 2004, 10:13 PM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The thought of having to target the spell at a point 1cm off someone's nose just seems a bit silly. But that doesn't have to happen anyway, because the spell will go off when it hits anything, so you can actually aim it directly at someone.
How, exactly? It would have to know which energy-waves of heat are direct results of the effects of the spell. It would have to differentiate between the heat radiated from the flames brought into existence by the spell and the heat radiated from any flames set off by the original flames, for example. I feel it would be easier just to get rid of all extreme heat, and even then it is a significant part of the functioning of the spell, affecting the Drain. |
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