Cover vs. Conceal, Ranged combat modifiers Options

[RedmondLarry]

This came up in our game last Sunday.

According to the rules, if I stand behind a concrete wall, such that I am only partially visible, am I harder to damage with ranged combat than if I stand behind a cardboard box with the same amount of me showing?

Partial Cover is SR3 p. 111
Advanced Cover Rules is CC p. 97

[Diesel]

I think if you roll enough to hit the uncovered target but not the covered target, it would hit the cover and you would apply barrier ratings/blowthrough etc. Don't know if that's canon, but that's how we rule it.

[DV8]

We do something similar to Diesel; You make a choice; either you accept the cover modifiers, and don't have to break through the barrier before doing damage, or you neglect the cover modifiers and have to break through the barrier. It might not be a hundred percent accurate or life-like, but it really cuts down on the bullshit.

[mfb]

you have to be careful with that, though. i mean, that totally negates any advantage you'd have in hiding behind a bush. personally, i just grant the target extra points of armor equal to one-half their cover modifier, if it's hard cover. if they've only got concealment, though, i wouldn't apply it as a modifier to suppressive fire.

[Shadow]

If your spotted hiding behind a bush it will do you exactly squat to protect you. If hiding behind a concrete barrier it will protect you, even if your spotted. Thats the difference between cover (something that will stop bullets) and concealment (something that makes it hard to see you).

If you hide behind something that can't stop a bullet you better hope you arn't spotted, because when you are, your toast. Use the rules on pg 111, BBB, for this.

I can't find them but there are rules for shooting through barries. So if you hide behind something that is (semi)bulletproof you can have some protection.

[RedmondLarry]

[Hasaku]

Shadow speaks of the so-called "real world" - always a dangerous proposition around here, like drinking from a fountain in Nethack. The canon cover rules assume you're aiming for the visible portion of someone. That's why DV8's house rule allows you to forgo the modifier and just shoot at someone through the cover. I only have one problem with that. You can't be 100% sure where the rest of their body is, what position they're in, etc. Maybe reducing the cover modifier instead of eliminating it completely (sort of like eliminating it but adding a partial blind fire mod) would reflect this. Drop the mod to +1 or +2 and apply the rules for shooting through barriers?

[Austere Emancipa...]

I agree that there should be some modifier for shooting at someone who has "Concealment". Perhaps half of Cover, like the +2 Hasaku suggested above. Like he said, you don't really know where the rest of his body is. If you had all the time in the world to think about it, the Concealment really wouldn't matter much. In a firefight, you usually don't.

Anyway, if being harder to see didn't affect the TN to hit with a firearm after being spotted, then you'd have to do away with the Visibility modifiers too.

[mfb]

i would just remove the cover modifier for suppressive fire, if it's soft cover. since, basically, you'd just be spraying a bush in hopes of hitting whatever's on the other side. matter of fact, cover and concealment applying to suppressive fire really doesn't make any sense at all!

[Austere Emancipa...]

With concealment, I completely agree. Cover, though, should apply at least somehow. Whether the straight +TN for cover vs suppressive fire makes sense is another matter, but it should be taken to consideration in some way.

[mfb]

with concealment, the shooter should state, before rolling, whether he's ignoring cover (reducing the power of the attack as per shooting through barriers) or applying it (dealing full damage, with a lesser chance to hit). alternatively, you could calculate the TN with and without cover, and then judge the damage by whichever TN the shooter beats. that gets complicated, though.

[RedmondLarry]

I like the simplicity of house-ruling that when resolving ranged fire, concealment (without any barrier quality) provides one-half of the shooting penalty that cover would provide. If the concealment provides some barrier quality, I'll let the shooter pick whether to take the full penalty (target gets no benefit of barrier rating), or one-half the penalty (target gets benefit of the barrier rating).

Thanks for the good discussion, everyone.

For combat spells, I'll still give full benefit to concealment.

[mfb]

so... when would the target get his full cover mod?

[Hasaku]

When the shooter chooses not to ignore the cover and instead aims for what he can see. The target gets the full cover mod, but he also faces full damage.

edit: So the target always gets some benefit from taking cover. It's just the shooter's choice whether he's harder to hit or harder to damage.

[Deep Blue]

The runners in my campaign don't get into firefights longer than 3 seconds. They don't get pinned down behind cardboard boxes or bushes, and if they're behind a concrete barrier (like the corner of a building, for instance) they run away, hide, turn on their ruthy suits, and wait till whoever is chasing them pops their head around the corner.

[Diesel]

If whoever was chasing them were smart, they'd:
1. Pop a grenade or three around the corner
2. Come from behind armed with
2a. Thermographic
2b. Ultrasound
2c. Astral Perception
3. Surround them with a little backup armed with
3a. Thermographic
3b. Ultrasound
3c. Astral Perception

This is assuming your characters don't kill EVERYONE when they use this trick. And / or semi-intelligent guards.

[Deep Blue]

The runners are wise to ultrasound, and all have high-frequency hearing and high-level ultrasound emitter/detectors (pg. 293 SR3). They look out for astral surveillance. They deek and avoid when possible, use misdirection and disguise, and only kill when they have to.

Smart guards don't pop their heads around corners, true. Or at least the second guard doesn't. Which gives the runners time to high-tail it out of there.

Grenades of the explosive variety are not commonly carried by the security teams my PCs are up against, because a grenade causes too much colateral damage to building interiors.

I can't fault either my guards, the rigged sec. systems, or the runners.

My players just don't put their characters into situations where they get pinned down, and they don't put other people into situations where the 'other' people are pinned down (since, in the eyes of the PCs, pinning down sec guards is just giving them time to call for backup, and wasting time better used to get out of the compound un-shot). But this is all tangential.

Nevertheless. I like

[Guest_Artemis_*]

It definitely makes sense.

If somebody is taking cover behind a wall of some sort but are continuing to shoot or cast from behind their cover, an attacker can guess roughly where they are. (Base 4 +2 =6 -SmtLnk or Laser. Then reduced damage from the barrier.)

Or target the parts of them that are showing. (Base 4 +4 =8 -SmtLnk or Laser, and simple actions of Aiming </= Intelligence.)

And if someone is simply shivering behind a wall, an attacker can use the blind fire penalty combined with barrier rating to attack their target. (Base 4 +8 =12 -SmtLnk or Laser.)

A target behind a bush should be easier to hit than a target behind a brick wall. Now an attacker attempting to make a called shot at a target's head if their hiding behind a curtain or bush might be a good case of adding the partial cover penalty to the standard called shot penalty. (Base 4 +4 +4 =12 -SmtLnk or Laser, and simple actions of Aiming </= Intelligence.)

[Shockwave_IIc]

Thanks Artemis for covering this thread in slip spray cos i've just lost it.

[Guest_Artemis_*]

My pleasure.. It took writing that out just to clarify it for myself. A topic with good material, a hard subject to discuss without being there to see it sometimes.

[Shockwave_IIc]

A simple table would do it.

hint hint :D

[toturi]

[Xirces]

Yeah, let's face it, if Runner X is hiding behind a brick wall and you've got an LMG with loads of ammo you might fancy your chances of just spraying the wall until something hits. If he pops his read round the side to shoot back then you take the partially (almost entirely) concealed option.

If the wall is actually transparent (you not get see through bricks there?) then you'd shoot without penalty, but have to punch through the wall. Simple isn't it?

:twirl: