Defending against a mage., Without being one yourself. Options

[crizh]

Well, that is certainly an opinion.

No, it's a fact.

Perception penalties apply to Perception tests. Visibility modifiers are a completely different thing.

While Visibility modifiers apply to Perception test this does not mean that all Perception penalties are Visibility Modifiers.

Chamo makes it more difficult to detect an intruder in SR but does not make him any harder to shoot once he has been detected.

[BlueMax]

Well, that is certainly an opinion. But logic dictates that if I have a -4 penalty to target something because I can barely see it because of glare, smoke, or underbrush, having a -4 because it is hard to see in another fashion is also highly likely.

Edit: Huh. Apparently in SR4A, cover bonuses also apply to Indirect Combat Spells. Or so the changes doc indicates. I had thought that was always the case.

I made the same honest mistake. About two months ago when those in my group who had ordered though B&N had their shiny new SR4A, I opened one to check this and I was shocked Direct Combat spells take only a tiny portion of the possible modifiers.

Direct combat spells are amazingly potent.


BlueMax

[Marwynn]

I believe it was ambiguous previously.

Perception isn't constant... that is it's a roll to determine if you spot something in the first place. Visibility is the difficulty of observing something. It does make sense that a hazy outline of someone in a Chameleon Suit would be harder to shoot, but it doesn't inflict any visibility penalties in terms of targeting.

So no -4 to spells or attacks. Though some sorta penalty in the difficulty in maintaining a "lock" on the target would be good, but that's up to the GM.

Wards are not that expensive. It's 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per hour of the ritual, which is equal to the Force of the Ward. A basic Force 3 Ward would cost you 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and it lasts several weeks equal to the hits of Magic + Will. Total cubic meters is equal to Magic x 50.

Not too shabby. A decent day job if you ask me.

[Adarael]

Well, I'm gonna merrily go on applying perception penalties to ranged combat. Because camo DOES make it harder to effectively hit a target, even if you know he's there, because it breaks up his outline, and makes it harder to tell where center of mass is.

Either way, the point still stands. Wear a ruthenium polymer suit. DON'T shoot at Raoul. Does Raoul take an observe in detail action to notice you flanking him? No? Well, then shoot Raoul in the side of the head.

You may note that this is equally effective against all enemies.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that if you go strictly by the rules, there are also no 'visibility penalties' for shooting at someone through loose underbrush or a blizzard, because it is not strictly 'cover'. And that is horseshit, IMO.

[Thanee]

Yep.

If you hold your gun into the exact same direction (against camouflaged and non-camouflaged target in exactly the same position) you will hit them exactly the same.

But... will you hold your gun into the exact same direction, based upon what you can see and your coordination (which is essentially, what your Firearms skill does)?

Bye
Thanee

[crizh]

It's 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per hour of the ritual

Not to be rude but, where the hell did you find that number?

Even at that low cost that's 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) every couple of weeks for an area the size of a very small store.

That's a shit load of cash for something that only prevents you being annoyed by Watcher Spirits and that regularly gets kicked over by Wiz-gang vandals.

[Marwynn]

The rule book. SR4A, p.194, the section about Wards.

A number
of firms and freelance magicians contract to maintain wards for those
who value their astral privacy, generally charging around 100¥ an hour
(per magician).

It's a small amount of money if you value your astral privacy. And since it's a business and you can sign up for a contract with discounts and so on.

[crizh]

And that is horseshit, IMO.

I concur.

But as the rules stand, RAW, you haven't got a leg to stand on trying to tell the GM that you are 4 dice harder to hit because of your ruthenium sneak suit...

[crizh]

The rule book. SR4A, p.194, the section about Wards.



It's a small amount of money if you value your astral privacy.

Christ, I've only read that paragraph about fifteen times in the last hour...

Still, like I said, a very big wedge of cash for very little return.

edit

Compared to the cost of Insurance against other, far more likely, knocks to your balance sheet I don't think it adds up until you get to very high (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per square foot businesses.

[ScandRun]

Hmm this defending against mages seem kinda tough without throwing in a mage on the opposition side all the time. I myself only GM atm but my PC mage seem to destroy most what I throw against them all the time. Elite soldier teams without mage support gets blasted with force 12 mana bolts and whatnot. I seem to have the best success throwing large number of foes against them even with magical support my runners where kinda stressed out fighting 25 drugged up bikers with pistols and chains.

I have considered giving my more high end teams astral support from mages. Summoning spririts with magical guard assisting them with magical guard or just popping up in the face of the mage in question.

Another idea I have considered is targeting the mage through focis, I remember playing an awakend character my GM was always on about focis lighting up like a Christmas tree on the astral plane .

Could I for example target a mage through active focis ? What would be the effect if I manaballed the mages active focis. This possibility of affecting targets in the regular world while the magical support would only be on the astral plan would be essentail for this strategy to be effective.

Just a few thoughts from a GM perspective on defending vs magic.

Would be really interesting to get some feedback on the astral support angle from you guys.

Regards,

Scandrun

[Kumo]

Well, if mage can't spot an enemy, he will not attack him. When he can - chamo will not help. But his enemy can try to hide again.

BTW: total darkness, thermal smoke and chamo do not block an Astral Sight...

I'm not sure about wards - probably most places of any importance has them. But at public areas... rare at best.
Wi-fi inhabitants are relatively cheap, so they are common in any place. Not public areas, again - these are places where pepole should have access to Matrix.

[Apathy]

Options vs mages:

• a large volume of individually weak opponents (12 ghouls poping in an alley popping out from behind dumpsters and trash piles, or a swarm of 100 devil rats mobbing you in the sewer). But you've got to be able to use cover, visibility modifiers, and closing to melee range to prevent the mage from taking everyone out with a single stunball, though.
• a few high-end opponents with spell defense. This has a significant chance of TPK, though.
• drones
• area attack weapons and gas.

Mages will potentially be buffed with armor or invisibility spells, making them hard to hit and hard to damage when you do hit, so grenades are always nice. Gas grenades don't need to be precisely targeted, and bypass the armor and barrier spells.

[Stahlseele]

camo . . it's CAMO . . from Camouflage . . not Chamo from Chamaeleonflage . .

[crizh]

camo . . it's CAMO . . from Camouflage . . not Chamo from Chamaeleonflage . .

Calm, calm.

Take a breath.

It's easy enough to get confused when talking about Camouflage and Chameleon Coating in the same breath.

And far from the worst English grammar/spelling I've seen/perpetrated on these boards...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cheshyr]

Huh. I thought we were talking about the Chameleon Suit too... hence the references to ruthenuim polymers.

I would generally deal with mages using stealth or area effect as well, unless I wanted to play things a little coy. Definitely wouldn't go head to head with one on their terms.

[BlueMax]

Options vs mages:

• a large volume of individually weak opponents (12 ghouls poping in an alley popping out from behind dumpsters and trash piles, or a swarm of 100 devil rats mobbing you in the sewer). But you've got to be able to use cover, visibility modifiers, and closing to melee range to prevent the mage from taking everyone out with a single stunball, though.
• a few high-end opponents with spell defense. This has a significant chance of TPK, though.
• drones
• area attack weapons and gas.

Mages will potentially be buffed with armor or invisibility spells, making them hard to hit and hard to damage when you do hit, so grenades are always nice. Gas grenades don't need to be precisely targeted, and bypass the armor and barrier spells.

I would dispute the listing of Drones. OR is easy to hit until a very large drone. Drones get no defense. Thus a mage with 15 dice to cast spells is way ahead of drones. Thus Drones have nothing on the mages. Its harder for the mundanes to destroy the drones unless you let them walk around with Gauss Rifles. (new scatter rules are *tough* ).

The large volume works though... something about angry masses with pitchforks killing wizards is a classic.

BlueMax

[ravensoracle]

I think you deal with mages the same way you'd deal with anyone that can kick your butt. I mean a decked out Sam can be just as dangerous. I'd make sure the fighting was on my terms. Get cover or better yet Surprise the mage. He can't do anything if you get him first. I've found drones to be pretty effective. I just say you have to play it smart.

[Screaming Eagle]

Mages do have the biggest hammers, but they tend to be made of rather brittle glass.

A fiercly dedicated mage - the kind that tosses the 14+ dice on relavent tests - will go down FAST once you hit them. The best defence is to see them first and go first. Toe to toe I have run into few mages that can out "fast draw" a Sami of comperable specialisation (similar points and $$$ dedicated to being bad arse).

Actual defence? I advise EVERY character to have a will and body of at least 3, preferably higher, one for mages the other for bullets. Spend and edge and you might just get lucky enough not to be deadified. Once you are not deadified GEEK THE MAGE. Even with a 2-4 die penalty from wounds a good Sami is rolling 10+ dice on their main weapon.

Worries about the invisable? Aren't we all? Ares new line of sonic, ultra sound and tremor sensors will pin point that pesky invisable intruder in a Nano and will place a representational ARO in your HUD for your convinience. Coupled with Ares Brand Smart Link ™ this will make anyone coming into your home uninvited regret having crossed you.
Ares, a name you can trust.

[BlueMax]

Worries about the invisable? Aren't we all? Ares new line of sonic, ultra sound and tremor sensors will pin point that pesky invisable intruder in a Nano and will place a representational ARO in your HUD for your convinience. Coupled with Ares Brand Smart Link ™ this will make anyone coming into your home uninvited regret having crossed you.
Ares, a name you can trust.

Game
Set
Match
Screaming Eagle

[crizh]

Game
Set
Match
Screaming Eagle

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I never even got to the FAB-II laced walls, the FAB-II sprinklers and the FAB-II tipped Heimdalls...

[Jay]

I would dispute the listing of Drones. OR is easy to hit until a very large drone. Drones get no defense. Thus a mage with 15 dice to cast spells is way ahead of drones. Thus Drones have nothing on the mages. Its harder for the mundanes to destroy the drones unless you let them walk around with Gauss Rifles. (new scatter rules are *tough* ).

The large volume works though... something about angry masses with pitchforks killing wizards is a classic.

BlueMax

They might have specified drones (over drone) to go with the numbers game again. Can you arm drones with pitchforks?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Screaming Eagle]

They might have specified drones (over drone) to go with the numbers game again. Can you arm drones with pitchforks?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now I have a vision of 2 dozen hover drones with smily faces and pitchforks painted on in AR...

All of them with 5 kilos of explosives strapped to them.

Approching the target from all angles and co-ordinated so that no 2 are viable and within 10 metres of each other untill they are far too close...

[cndblank]

Well, if mage can't spot an enemy, he will not attack him. When he can - chamo will not help. But his enemy can try to hide again.

BTW: total darkness, thermal smoke and chamo do not block an Astral Sight...

Smoke is a physical barrier (if a thin one) so it would apply to Astral Sight just the way a curtain would apply to Astral sight.

[Apathy]

I would dispute the listing of Drones. OR is easy to hit until a very large drone. Drones get no defense. Thus a mage with 15 dice to cast spells is way ahead of drones. Thus Drones have nothing on the mages. Its harder for the mundanes to destroy the drones unless you let them walk around with Gauss Rifles. (new scatter rules are *tough* ).

I was under the impression that if casting a direct damage spell drones would resist with their OR, which is 5+, right? Of course, you could still fry them easily with indirect spells, especially lightning bolt. But at least it's forcing the mage to cast higher drain spells. And drones are cheap in SR4, even cheaper than security guards.

[Marwynn]

Direct damage spells must achieve enough hits to beat the OR, yeah. That means Force 5 minimum for Drones, needing 5+ to affect it. Net hits add the damage.

Indirect Combat Spells have to deal with Armour x 2, treating them like Barriers. Which gets very confusing. The Combat Spell section says Armour x 2 and treat them like Barriers with a reference to p166. But then Indirect Combat Spells are mentioned using only Armour in a damage resistance test.

That does just mean Armour x 2, but the recursive error's there.

Direct Damage spells would still be the best bet, however how many wagemages can cast at that Force? That is, if the GM didn't turn them into badasses.