Defending against a mage., Without being one yourself. Options

[Jay]

This one stuck with me for a while (mostly because I also noticed the increased usage of 'Chamo').

camo . . it's CAMO . . from Camouflage . . not Chamo from Chamaeleonflage . .

I think Chamaeleon-o-flage should be a brand name for ruthenium polymer suits! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Feel free to use it in your games ^^

[toturi]

A Ward collapsing due to any reason should alert the fella(s) that made said ward.

I have not found any rule that states that a ward collapsing would alert its creator however. The only relevant line I have found is:

Any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator.

A ward collapsing due to Background Count is neither an attack on a mana barrier nor is it an attempt to break through per se.

[Apathy]

RAW states that radar works against invisibility. Don't have books at work, but I'm sure someone out there can provide page number reference. Also, if the mage uses silence spell to counter ultrasound he's going to leave a 'blank spot' in viewer's display that will tag his location. Wouldn't be enough for precise targeting, but would give enough info for a carefully placed grenade.

[Ravor]

I disagree Cthulhudreams, all the mage has to do is call the owner, and with a simple 'jack that is easy to do within a few seconds/minutes as Marwynn has pointed out. Of course the Mage is going to charge extra if he has to respond in person, but most of the time he won't have to.

[Pendaric]

Ahem with a small break from decorum...Check the sig! Check the sig!
Do not ckeck you comlink normal service has now resumed.

[darthmord]

Complete darkness + heavy thermal smoke renders everyone blind. Now, if you're not prepared for it, this is something of a wash (they can't see you to cast, you can't see them to shoot). However, ultrasound is still only at -3 and is pretty-much the only form of vision mod that's available in eyewear but not eyeware (pardon the pun). Radar or ultrasound systems that aren't vision based are also available in cyberware. Either way, the end result is that you can detect the mage to shoot them, but they need to actually see you to cast spells at you.

There's a few things here and there (arcane arrester, astral hazing, magic resistance, obnoxiously high willpower and edge) that can make it easier to resist spells, and a few items that were designed to screw mages (FAB springs to mind, as do magemasks or magecuffs) but in general, your best bet for not getting torn up when you find yourself facing offensive magic (and aren't being backed up by magic of your own) is to deny them LOS through one means or another.

There's always indirect combat spells. Higher drain but you don't need to see anyone for those to work.

I can't see you but know you are there (by virtue of that massive cloud of LOS breaking thermal smoke), I'm tossing my baddest AOE indirect spell where that cloud is (this assumes I'm outside of it).

Besides, if I'm willing to cast it, I can probably survive it with little to no damage.

[Cheshyr]

RAW states that radar works against invisibility. Don't have books at work, but I'm sure someone out there can provide page number reference. Also, if the mage uses silence spell to counter ultrasound he's going to leave a 'blank spot' in viewer's display that will tag his location. Wouldn't be enough for precise targeting, but would give enough info for a carefully placed grenade.

I'd like to add my opinion to this. Radar and Ultrasound works by reading the reflections. The only time a silence spell would leave a 'blank spot' is if there was something behind the player that should have been reflecting the signal back. If there's nothing behind the player, then no reflection would be expected, so the blank spot wouldn't be noticed amidst the larger blank spot.

How does spirit Concealment nest with Silence and Improved Invisibility? Do you apply Concealment first, then the spells, or spells first and powers after?

[Adarael]

I would apply only the better bonus for any given situation.

For instance, for visual perception, if a guy has -4 to perception checks for invisbility, and a -6 due to Conceal, the conceal takes precedence. If the test is auditory, the invisbility does nothing, but Conceal (being anti-everything) still takes effect.

I don't remember if this is by RAW, but it's the only sane way to do things, IMO.

[Stahlseele]

Well, with visibility mods, for the one looking allways only the one that is best for the looking person applies . .

[Adarael]

I'm sorrry, Stahl, I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean you always count the WEAKER vision penalties when someone is trying to spot a sneaker? Cuz I know that's not true. If I have invisbility and improved invisbility, the first at Force 2, 2 successes, and the second at Force 10, 10 successes, you certainly don't use the Force 2's modifiers.

[Ravor]

I think Stahlseele is talking about Vision Modes such as using Low Light, Thermo, Ultrasound, ect...

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, that was it. sorry, wasn't clear enough there <.<

[Adarael]

Ahh, okay! Makes much more sense now.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What is the exact wording in the book? I am not too sure if a ward collapsing due to background count will alert the person who set them up.

The placing mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down... for the exotic wards, there are other criteria for alerting the caster...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And that guy was the guy who installed the security system, or is that guy a very low skilled person? Plus, that guy has leverage, he can monitor ANY number of alarm systems - the span of control is very large.

Contrast this to a manned checkpoint (a much closer parallel to mage manned wards) - you need more skills for the guy on the ground, and you need support for him. This radically drives up costs.

Finally, the guy in the call centre actually calls someone else to respond, he doesn't do it personally - but the mage has to do it personally, because he has to be onsite to respond. Consider how many people walk through the doors of a mega mall every 5 minutes. If the mage is asleep (and everyone has to sleep) when the breech occurs, it's going to be seriously atleast 5 minutes for him to find his pants and DNI, then he has to look up who to ring for that breech. So you get a call from the mage saying 'about 5 minutes ago, some guy broke your wards on the east side entrance!'

What does that even tell you?

Seriously, alarm systems are an extremely bad comparison. Mages have extremely valuable skills, and do not have the same span of control as an alarm system operator.

Mages do not have to be on site to respond... send a few spirits to check it out, call in the Response teams, etc... he can do that from the safety of his own living room if he so chooses...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Assuming you can see him at all with Radar. It uses photons just like any other from of vision, and so should be screwed by improved invis.

Rasdar is immune to the effects of Improved Invisibility, Chameleon Coating or Camoflauge... there is still a reflection... says so in the equipment's description...

[toturi]

The placing mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down... for the exotic wards, there are other criteria for alerting the caster...

Even for a normal ward, where does it say that the mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down? If there is such a rule, please give me a quote from the book/s.

I have not found anything that says the mage is alerted when the ward goes down. Other types of wards have other criteria but normal wards do not auto-alert the mage when it goes down. The ward only alerts the mage when it is attacked and when something attempts to break through by virtue it is a mana barrier.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even for a normal ward, where does it say that the mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down? If there is such a rule, please give me a quote from the book/s.

I have not found anything that says the mage is alerted when the ward goes down. Other types of wards have other criteria but normal wards do not auto-alert the mage when it goes down. The ward only alerts the mage when it is attacked and when something attempts to break through by virtue it is a mana barrier.

I would ask you how the Ward would go down prematurely if it was not "attacked" or something attempted to "break through"... Please provide an example of such an occurrence...

Wards created in a Background Count are ususally attuned to that Background count and would not need to worry about such things... and artificial Background Count (like a Spell creating a BCG, or Astral Hazing, etc) would be an intentional act (placing in in conjunction with the warded area) which I would classify as an "attack" agains the integrity of the ward itself...

But you are right... I cannot find any explicit information that you are asking about...

Keep the Faith

[Marwynn]

I know it's not explicitly stated, though it is stated that Wards do alert their creator when they're attacked (p.125 Street Magic). But really, if the creator can feel it being under attack or being breached it can't feel it when it goes down?

It's probably one of those things the writers overlooked, they assume that anything that brings down a ward would be an attack.

[toturi]

Wards created in a Background Count are ususally attuned to that Background count and would not need to worry about such things... and artificial Background Count (like a Spell creating a BCG, or Astral Hazing, etc) would be an intentional act (placing in in conjunction with the warded area) which I would classify as an "attack" agains the integrity of the ward itself...

But you are right... I cannot find any explicit information that you are asking about...

Keep the Faith

That is not an attack on the ward, the collapse of the ward is simply a consequence of Background Count. A bad storm moves in, the Background Count increases, ward collapses. A huge 3 day rave gets on, the wards around the party collapse. I assume that there is an explicit rule that states that wards created in a Background Count are usually attuned to that Background Count? If I recall correctly, Background Counts do not have aspects and hence cannot be attuned to.

As well, attacking and attempting to break through a mana barrier is detailed on p194 SR4A. Using a Background Count is not per those rules.

I know it's not explicitly stated, though it is stated that Wards do alert their creator when they're attacked (p.125 Street Magic). But really, if the creator can feel it being under attack or being breached it can't feel it when it goes down?

It's probably one of those things the writers overlooked, they assume that anything that brings down a ward would be an attack.

If the ward goes down due to it being attacked, yes, then the creator will be alerted. But not if the ward simple collapses due to other reasons.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That is not an attack on the ward, the collapse of the ward is simply a consequence of Background Count. A bad storm moves in, the Background Count increases, ward collapses. A huge 3 day rave gets on, the wards around the party collapse. A funeral possession passes through, ward collapses.

As well, attacking and attempting to break through a mana barrier is detailed on p194 SR4A. Using a Background Count is not per those rules.

I think that we are arguing semantics, but I do understand where you are coming from (since you generally use only what is explicitly stated)... And I had already perused the books that you reference, and there are also some relevant sectrions in Street Magic...

By the Way... I fail to see how a Rave is going to impact a corporate research facilities Wards, but that is really beside the point that was being made... In my opinion (and it is not RAW, as stated previously) Wards are such that any interuption of the integrity of the ward constitutes an "attack"... note that the definition of attack in the book is extremely vague, it just says "attack or attempt to breach"... admittedly, it is semantics on my part as well...

Keep the Faith Toturi...

[Mordinvan]

Rasdar is immune to the effects of Improved Invisibility, Chameleon Coating or Camoflauge... there is still a reflection... says so in the equipment's description...

Then I'd research a multi-sense improved invisibility spell that works on Radar too. Its using the same types of particles to detect you using the same principles as regular vision, just at a different frequency, so it really should be covered, but if its not, make a version which will work.

[Mordinvan]

I would ask you how the Ward would go down prematurely if it was not "attacked" or something attempted to "break through"... Please provide an example of such an occurrence...

Wards created in a Background Count are ususally attuned to that Background count and would not need to worry about such things... and artificial Background Count (like a Spell creating a BCG, or Astral Hazing, etc) would be an intentional act (placing in in conjunction with the warded area) which I would classify as an "attack" agains the integrity of the ward itself...

But you are right... I cannot find any explicit information that you are asking about...

Keep the Faith

Anything that generates background count in the area of the ward. Running new born children through a blender near the ward for example would generate a back ground count, but this isn't an 'attack' against the ward. Also the book is kinda specific about attacking wards last I checked, and no, not all wards at aspected to the background count of the area, and I don't even think that is possible to do. You can aspect the background count to the ward, if you're a geomancer, but I've not seen rules saying the reverse is true.

[Deathmaster35]

Then I'd research a multi-sense improved invisibility spell that works on Radar too. Its using the same types of particles to detect you using the same principles as regular vision, just at a different frequency, so it really should be covered, but if its not, make a version which will work.

The invis spells are working in the visiable and near visable spectrums though, radar is fairly far off of that range. Even though they are part of the same EM spectrum they are in far off sections of it and different ranges of the EM spectrum exhibit far different properties so are not even very similar.

Keep in mind that the ultrawideband rader at best is rating 4, giving it only 4 dice to try to "see" something, so it really doesnt get much info most of the time.