Problem Players and Character Creation Options

[Degausser]

Okay, so I am starting a new game soon, and some of my players are OBVIOUSLY min-maxing the crap out of their characters. They are reaching for every rules supplement in order to get some more points, and it's starting to worry me. Am I overreacting, or have others had problems with these issues?

Issue 1) Negative qualities.

The two players have scowered the books for some negative qualities (particularly from Runner's companion) and I am scratching my head at them. One player has chosen "Prejudice-Technomancers, Closet" meaning he gets 5 BP (for hating a small group) and his social dice suffer no penalties, and he auto-succeeds on his willpower-intuition checks to resist acting on it. Isn't this like free BP? I mean, he has to role-play that he doesn't like 'mancers a bit, but suffers no game penalties for it.

The other player took Debt and Day Job. Debt seems a little broken, it GIVES you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 AND 5 BP, and it only adds a bit to your cost of living. Sure I can pull super-dick moves like saying the mob "Never received this month's payment" but, really that's me clearly breaking the rules set down by the game.

The player also took a 5 point day job. That gives him money AND BP, and locks out 10 hours worth of work a week. Really, that's nothing. Unless I am a complete dick and make all their runs during his job's hours (and then he would just quit, and have his 5 BP for nothing.) In fact, what if he does that? First session, just declares "I quit my dayjob." and BOOM, 5 BP for nothing.

Issue 2) Customized lifestyle

Okay, at first, this one seems like a no-brainer. Just a bit more versatility to control your lifestyle, but it can be really cheesy really fast. Just buy Neghborhood-Low, Necesities-Mid, Security-High, Entertainment-Squatter, Comfort-Squatter, and Boom, super-secure apartment for much cheaper than a normal lifestyle. All you have to do is say that you "enjoy X, which doesn't require money" (like coding, or art, or talking to spirits) and you have stupidly cheap setup. Seems kinda Cheesy to me.

[remmus]

The other player took Debt and Day Job. Debt seems a little broken, it GIVES you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 AND 5 BP, and it only adds a bit to your cost of living. Sure I can pull super-dick moves like saying the mob "Never received this month's payment" but, really that's me clearly breaking the rules set down by the game.

all RP makes it clear the rules are more guidelines then stone hard rules so I see no problem with you using the debt quality to dick around with the player, heck I think the designers want gm to use it to throw sand in the players cogs

The player also took a 5 point day job. That gives him money AND BP, and locks out 10 hours worth of work a week. Really, that's nothing. Unless I am a complete dick and make all their runs during his job's hours (and then he would just quit, and have his 5 BP for nothing.) In fact, what if he does that? First session, just declares "I quit my dayjob." and BOOM, 5 BP for nothing.

you must remember this is a corporate driven world where jobs aren´t given nor lost in the turn of a hand, I wouldn´t be supriced that the boss of a corp would have the power to refuse employees who want to quit. Also again as the GM you have the power to bend those 10 hours a week if you feel the quality needs a bigger impact on the player.

[Traul]

The other player took Debt and Day Job. Debt seems a little broken, it GIVES you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 AND 5 BP, and it only adds a bit to your cost of living. Sure I can pull super-dick moves like saying the mob "Never received this month's payment" but, really that's me clearly breaking the rules set down by the game.

This is not being a dick. The points for the disadvantage are just here because things can turn ugly. By taking this your player is begging you to screw him. Now there are several ways to do it. Just having the money disappear is pretty weak. But what about the good old double-cross? The runners are sent as baits. They do not fulfill the run because it could not and Mr J. knew it, so in the end they don't get paid.

Or simply a low month. No calls at all. It's getting a bit tight for the other players, but the one in debt has to find something.

Or have the runner wounded. Hospital isn't cheap.

The player also took a 5 point day job. That gives him money AND BP, and locks out 10 hours worth of work a week. Really, that's nothing. Unless I am a complete dick and make all their runs during his job's hours (and then he would just quit, and have his 5 BP for nothing.) In fact, what if he does that? First session, just declares "I quit my dayjob." and BOOM, 5 BP for nothing.

1° Don't forget the cardinal rule: if a player gets rid of a disdvantage, he has to buy it back with karma. Any karma he earns go to the payback until complete. This is also the case if your player finally reimburses his debt.
2° What's his job exactly? You need to know that to turn it against him. If he has no idea, just refuse the disadvantage.
3° This is not being a dick. 10h per week is a quarter of a full time job. Once every four runs, he cannot attend.

Okay, at first, this one seems like a no-brainer. Just a bit more versatility to control your lifestyle, but it can be really cheesy really fast. Just buy Neghborhood-Low, Necesities-Mid, Security-High, Entertainment-Squatter, Comfort-Squatter, and Boom, super-secure apartment for much cheaper than a normal lifestyle. All you have to do is say that you "enjoy X, which doesn't require money" (like coding, or art, or talking to spirits) and you have stupidly cheap setup. Seems kinda Cheesy to me.

That does not sound like a problem to me: security is just here to protect against burglars. There is no security high enough to stop an HTR team, so this is just a waste of money. If they find where you live, no matter how high your security is, you don't stand you ground. You run away.

Bot once again, if you don't want it, just say no. If they complain, show them the line in the rulebook that states any PC has to go through GM approval. This is not you being dickish, this is how any RPG is suppose to work.

[Dakka Dakka]

Issue 1) Negative qualities.

The two players have scowered the books for some negative qualities (particularly from Runner's companion) and I am scratching my head at them. One player has chosen "Prejudice-Technomancers, Closet" meaning he gets 5 BP (for hating a small group) and his social dice suffer no penalties, and he auto-succeeds on his willpower-intuition checks to resist acting on it. Isn't this like free BP? I mean, he has to role-play that he doesn't like 'mancers a bit, but suffers no game penalties for it.

Why does he auto succeed? Only if it is not a stressful situation you may buy hits. So sooner or later he will fail. Another option is to use more than average technomancers in your game. Make some of the Johnsons mancers, or important sources of information which cannot obviously be forced to cooperate. Another more heavy-handed option would be to tell the player that technomancers simply are too insignificant as a group to be worth the flaw. have him choose another larger group, but still in the uncommon category.

The other player took Debt and Day Job. Debt seems a little broken, it GIVES you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 AND 5 BP, and it only adds a bit to your cost of living. Sure I can pull super-dick moves like saying the mob "Never received this month's payment" but, really that's me clearly breaking the rules set down by the game.

500¥ extra a month may not be much but as you said, it may offer storytelling opportunities. Not only can the creditors screw the runner, but the can also offer jobs or try to getr additional leverage on the character. Also the 500¥ he will have to pay for the rest of his life, depending how scarce money is for him this may become a problem in the future.

The player also took a 5 point day job. That gives him money AND BP, and locks out 10 hours worth of work a week. Really, that's nothing. Unless I am a complete dick and make all their runs during his job's hours (and then he would just quit, and have his 5 BP for nothing.) In fact, what if he does that? First session, just declares "I quit my dayjob." and BOOM, 5 BP for nothing.

As with all qualities (including In Debt) they have to be bought off with Karma or the GM can assign another negative quality to the character. Otherwise if he tries to be a good employee, just have the time constraints come up sometimes. A flaw especially one for only 5 BP does not have to be debilitating. Also have the player describe the job so that you know what you have to deal with. You may be able to use this job for all sorts of illegal activities. Let the character be approached by unsavory types which offer him money on the side. Deal with either reply.

Issue 2) Customized lifestyle

Okay, at first, this one seems like a no-brainer. Just a bit more versatility to control your lifestyle, but it can be really cheesy really fast. Just buy Neghborhood-Low, Necesities-Mid, Security-High, Entertainment-Squatter, Comfort-Squatter, and Boom, super-secure apartment for much cheaper than a normal lifestyle. All you have to do is say that you "enjoy X, which doesn't require money" (like coding, or art, or talking to spirits) and you have stupidly cheap setup. Seems kinda Cheesy to me.

Well so what, just have that character pay cash for anything other than the cheapest food. Give him a -1 for all dice rolls from time to time because he couldn't sleep well on his flea infested mattress. Check if his electronics are in a watertight container because the roof is leaking again.

Just loosen up a bit, neither quality is gamebreaking or probably has allowed them to buy a significant power upgrade. With either you can work without screwing the character too much.

Just to pour oil in the flames, haven't they found incompetence (aerospace mechanic)? The incompetence flaws are much less fun to use, because you cannot do anything about it. The character simply cannot do a certain task, no roleplaying or storytelling opportunity at all.

[Synner667]

Remember the old saying...
...If the Disadvantage doesn't disadvantage the Player it's not a Disadvantage.

He has prejudice to Technomancers ??
How does he know someone is one ?? Maybe he'll suspect anyone who's good with a computer ?? Maybe he'll just gain a reputation for attacking computer users ?? For look at people a bit funny ?? etc...

Player takes Day Job as a Disadvantage, make him work for it.
What's his job ?? What are his hours ?? Is he doing 2 hrs a day, 5 days a week or 10 hour for 1 day a week ??
Remind him that he can't be there because he needs to be doing something covert.
If he has to be there, he'll have to miss group meetings, information gathering time, meeting contacts, etc.
Do that more than a couple of times and he'l have no job, or a rep for not turning up for runner activities.
And will then he'll have to either pay back the character points or take another Disadvantage to replace his job.
If he doesn't do the background, then you do it - and he'll have to suffer the results.

If Players want to push the envelope, rest assured there's more than enough for a GM to push back with - without being nasty or abusive.

[Marwynn]

If he's prejudiced against Technomancers then I have to ask... how does he know? And he needs a good reason why.

If he insists on that quality then he should be suspicious of any hacker or anyone using an unseen direct-neural interface. Don't give him any outward signs that this fella's a mundane hacker or not, he has to make it work.

In Debt really is very good. But the Mafia can be cheesed off enough to want the whole amount back. And maybe a favour. Look at it as a source for a potential run that can get the guy burned.

Day Job is a very dangerous quality (also needs one good Fake SIN or the SINner quality). You have regular contact with people, during daylight hours, and you can be trailed there if you're not too careful. Blackmail is a possibility, ruining your real job, letting it get around that you're a runner will make jobs dry up fast.

Set limits to the Lifestyles. They have to be able to explain a very secure, with good necessities place with very little in the way of entertainment and the like. These are normally 'runner hideouts, safehouses not residences.

[Omenowl]

You are looking at day job the wrong way. Think of it as a roleplaying experience and bringing a more 3 dimensional character. If the character wants the job then he has to describe the job, the hours, the people he works with, etc. The character with dayjob 5bp is making about 8 nuyen per hour. Does he work at the local stuffer shack or does he load boxes, is he like peter parker taking pictures to sell freelance? Now if the player wants to quit then he either has to repay back the BP or he has to take a new flaw determined by the GM.

As for the prejudiced technomancer then to get a roleplaying award it has to come out during the game. If the choice is hire the technomancer or the hacker, he would hire the hacker. Again if the player does not roleplay the trait then feel free to remove it and make the player either get a different 5 point flaw or spend 10 karma to get rid of it.

As for debt. Low levels of debt aren't bad, but if the player misses a payment definitely have some thugs come by to explain what it means if he missed a payment (or just ignore it until the player is deeply in debt before beginning to have someone visit). A "friendly reminder" might be the first warning then knee cap breaking and there is always organ legging. It definitely gives some impetus for taking missions the character might not be comfortable with.

As for customized life style that should not be a problem. Just see if it makes sense. I looked at my personal lifestyle and if definitely varied between high and squatter. At the end it was middle class lifestyle. Again you can min/max, but at the end of the day see if it seems like such a place would exist before the residents do something about it. IE you don't live in a mansion in the barrens nor do you live street in a gated community with high security.

[DWC]

Don't forget the best part of In Debt. He borrowed 5000. That means he owes 7500, which means he has to pay 750 per month. IF you really want to fuck with him, loan him more money. Let cash get tight and have the sharks decide that since he's been so good about making his payments on time, they're going to offer to loan him a bunch of cash for something he wants. Or have a rival loan shark offer to loan him 10 grand to pay off the other group. Then he owes the new guy 15000, or 1500 per month.

Once he falls behind, have a shark offer to let him off the hook if he screws over a teammate who did something that one of the shark's contacts doesn't like. Taking negative qualities is begging the GM to do something terrible to your character.

[Glyph]

Prejudice gives a -2 modifier to social skills when dealing with the object of prejudice. The rules are for a PC trying to influence an NPC, but I would also apply it to any situation where the PC has to be other than hostile towards someone he is prejudiced against.

In debt gives the character money and build points to begin with, but the character needs to pay 1.5 x that money plus interest, then pay Karma, to get rid of it. You don't need to create any special situations to exploit this flaw - it's already balanced. Although it is well within reason for the character to occasionally feel the pinch, or occasionally be pressured by the people who lent him the money.

Day job takes up a character's time. It should occasionally get in the way of a meet, legwork, or some other portion of a run. It also makes a character easier to track down. And like any flaw, you have to buy it off with Karma if you lose it.

The lifestyle is no biggie. So they want to play someone who lives in a cruddy apartment with first-rate security. So what? So their stuff is a bit more protected against casual theft. And it fits certain personality types - a lot of runners should be paranoid types who have lots of security and not a lot of bling in their place (which they will need to leave in a hurry if someone finds out where they live).


Honestly, it does sound as if you are overreacting. There's nothing wrong with people scrounging up a few extra points for their characters, and they have the same 35 point limit as everyone else. At least the flaws they picked all have good roleplaying/story hooks that you can use.

[vladski]

Okay, so I am starting a new game soon, and some of my players are OBVIOUSLY min-maxing the crap out of their characters. They are reaching for every rules supplement in order to get some more points, and it's starting to worry me. Am I overreacting, or have others had problems with these issues?

Issue 1) Negative qualities.

The two players have scowered the books for some negative qualities (particularly from Runner's companion) and I am scratching my head at them. One player has chosen "Prejudice-Technomancers, Closet" meaning he gets 5 BP (for hating a small group) and his social dice suffer no penalties, and he auto-succeeds on his willpower-intuition checks to resist acting on it. Isn't this like free BP? I mean, he has to role-play that he doesn't like 'mancers a bit, but suffers no game penalties for it.

The other player took Debt and Day Job. Debt seems a little broken, it GIVES you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 AND 5 BP, and it only adds a bit to your cost of living. Sure I can pull super-dick moves like saying the mob "Never received this month's payment" but, really that's me clearly breaking the rules set down by the game.

The player also took a 5 point day job. That gives him money AND BP, and locks out 10 hours worth of work a week. Really, that's nothing. Unless I am a complete dick and make all their runs during his job's hours (and then he would just quit, and have his 5 BP for nothing.) In fact, what if he does that? First session, just declares "I quit my dayjob." and BOOM, 5 BP for nothing.

Issue 2) Customized lifestyle

Okay, at first, this one seems like a no-brainer. Just a bit more versatility to control your lifestyle, but it can be really cheesy really fast. Just buy Neghborhood-Low, Necesities-Mid, Security-High, Entertainment-Squatter, Comfort-Squatter, and Boom, super-secure apartment for much cheaper than a normal lifestyle. All you have to do is say that you "enjoy X, which doesn't require money" (like coding, or art, or talking to spirits) and you have stupidly cheap setup. Seems kinda Cheesy to me.

I would say you are worried for no real reason. The flaws are all legitimate and you can hardly blame the players for trying to score a few more build points to get a little edge or to design a character as they envision him. The key thing as a GM is to utilize those flaws. Force the players to truly define their characters: What is the day job; what are the hours? Co-create a floorplan and detail all the security for the doss. As a GM, figure out who the neighbors are and have fun with it. Everyone has had a snoopy/obnoxious neighbor in their life at some point. How about hte old lady that calls hte cops all the time because of hte suspicious people she sees coming and going next door? Or, just for fun, at some point have a kid hacker npc that gets introduced along the way in some adventure anonymously start screwing with the play just for hte fun of it. Break into the apartment and rearrange the furniture. Leave little obnoxious notes. Do this privately witht he player. Make the PC even more paranoid than he already is, all the while his associates simply think he's going off the deep end. "But, WHY would someone break in and move all your furniture around and not take anything? C'mon dude, you need to lay off the novacoke."

As far as the technomancer thing goes... play with it! Design situations where the dude has to deal with technos and his predjudice gets in the way. Make him work for one. Or make one of hte first runs a situation where he has to bodyguard/rescue/help one. Later one, offer a job where the technomancer is the target and let the character's flaw be involved.

Seriously, as long as the characters are getting legitimate build points to build their characters, the game is not broken or unbalanced. It's up to you as the GM to make sure that a flaw is indeed a flaw. It doesn't mean overwhelm them for doing things you wouldn't have done, but it does mean that their flaws will get in the way sometimes. Use them as hooks for gameplay. That's well worth the few extra dice they will get to toss around occasionally.

Vlad

[Stingray]

IMO.. waayy over-reacting!! if your player wanted really min-max..taking 7xprejudiced
(biased)..
customized livestyle: others are living with one person
(paying only +10 % of costs/month)..

..if so.. i would REALLY say something ugly..your player's negative
qualities are very light comparing of what i have seen..
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

In debt gives the character money and build points to begin with, but the character needs to pay 1.5 x that money plus interest, then pay Karma, to get rid of it. You don't need to create any special situations to exploit this flaw - it's already balanced. Although it is well within reason for the character to occasionally feel the pinch, or occasionally be pressured by the people who lent him the money.

I disagree with the charging them with karma to buy off this flaw. It is like charging them karma for earning money on a run or allowing them to convert Nuyen to karma. Once the player pays off his debt off then it is gone. It could also be like charging players for night vision (5bp) when they get cyber eyes.


But as a GM I would conveniently ignore the debt then after several months spring it on them (but it was 7500 nuyen and now it is 15000). This is if they take a low level debt. The compound interest is 10% per month so given 7 or 8 months it doubles the debt. Once it gets high enough then you as a GM start brining in some muscle. Now if they max out debt (30bp) then the player is basically doing runs just not to end up in a wood chipper...

[Synner667]

I disagree with the charging them with karma to buy off this flaw. It is like charging them karma for earning money on a run or allowing them to convert Nuyen to karma. Once the player pays off his debt off then it is gone. It could also be like charging players for night vision (5bp) when they get cyber eyes.

Welcome to the world of proper points based RPGs [SR v4 is only a partially points based RPG, which is one reason it has these issues].

Properly done, cybereyes, etc could have a points cost - based on their ability.

But if you give them points for having a Disadvantage, the obvious balance is to make them pay an equiv to lose the Disadvantage - surely ??

Whether that's in character points, cash, favours, etc should be the question. If there's a standard value to that [1 character point = £xx = 1 favour = etc] , it's easy.
Which in proper points based RPGs, there is - because you can point cost everything [should you so wish]

Well, getting benefits from finding cash has a long and glorious past...
...From gaining XP just for finding money in a rubbish heap in D&D to turning down Knighthoods in GURPS because the recipient would have to pay character points for the gift !!]

[flext]

Maybe it's time to have a chat with the players. What are they expecting out of this game? Maybe they expect to need every single point of BP they can grab to survive. I think clarifying the objective of the game, not the plot just the purpose, can help players design characters that fit in well. If you are expecting more role play let them know same for combat, hacking, driving, or even a decent balanced group. Also, I would ask "Why?" for every quality and even skills sometimes. Why do you have a debt? Where did it come from? What caused you to pick it up? Why did you start running with a day job? Who do you work for? These can all create really good hooks in the game, and not to screw over the player but to tell a good story. I think we sometimes see games like GM vs. Players when it really should be a team effort to create a good story. (I'm not assuming you have this view) I would suggest discussing it with them more than anything.

[Synner667]

Maybe it's time to have a chat with the players. What are they expecting out of this game?
Maybe they expect to need every single point of BP they can grab to survive.
I think clarifying the objective of the game, not the plot just the purpose, can help players design characters that fit in well.
If you are expecting more role play let them know same for combat, hacking, driving, or even a decent balanced group.

Also, I would ask "Why?" for every quality and even skills sometimes.
Why do you have a debt? Where did it come from? What caused you to pick it up? Why did you start running with a day job? Who do you work for?
These can all create really good hooks in the game, and not to screw over the player but to tell a good story.

I think we sometimes see games like GM vs. Players when it really should be a team effort to create a good story.
(I'm not assuming you have this view) I would suggest discussing it with them more than anything.

>applauds<

[Chrysalis]

I Debt also means someone else can buy the debt from the Mob.

You now no longer have to deal with the mob, but some other force. Maybe it's a technomancer who is cheesed off with their behavior, or something similar. having to pay back 10,000 nuyen PLUS interest in a week may be a bit harsh, but it creates an amazing roleplaying opportunity. If they do well his 5BP disadvantage may even be swapped out.

[Whipstitch]

I disagree with the charging them with karma to buy off this flaw. It is like charging them karma for earning money on a run or allowing them to convert Nuyen to karma. Once the player pays off his debt off then it is gone. It could also be like charging players for night vision (5bp) when they get cyber eyes.

Those are some awful analogies. What you're conveniently ignoring here is that the build points that come along with the flaw have value as well. A build point at chargen can be used to purchase 5k worth of resources, so even a 5 point In Debt flaw can put 30k worth of goods on your character sheet. For that ratio to work out equitably, you need to acknowledge that the PC is not just borrowing money, they're borrowing build points/karma. If they didn't have to pay back the karma cost, then suddenly a manageable amount of debt would be virtually a no brainer decision for any build you care to name. A bit of smart accounting here and there and you could feasibly pay off such a small debt simply by fencing some of the stuff you came out of chargen with at a tidy profit, which is the issue the OP had with Day Job.

Anyway, to the OP: Depending on how well the min-maxers spend their ill-gotten points, it may not really be worth getting worked up about where those points came from. A lot of rookie power gamers tend to overestimate the value of things like multiple combat skills, for example. If the team's Samurai can already wipe out the goon squad with Pistols and Automatics than it probably does not matter much if he picks up some cheesy flaws just so he can afford to be able to kill people with Longarms too. Hell, if anything, it might encourage him to blow nuyen on some superfluous hardware, in which case he might end up balancing himself for you. The real thing to keep an eye on is dicepool sizes, not negative qualities, since it's entirely possible to make a surprisingly powerful character without indulging in more than a flaw or two.

[Omenowl]

Those are some awful analogies. What you're conveniently ignoring here is that the build points that come along with the flaw have value as well. A build point at chargen can be used to purchase 5k worth of resources, so even a 5 point In Debt flaw can put 30k worth of goods on your character sheet. For that ratio to work out equitably, you need to acknowledge that the PC is not just borrowing money, they're borrowing build points/karma. If they didn't have to pay back the karma cost, then suddenly a manageable amount of debt would be virtually a no brainer decision for any build you care to name. A bit of smart accounting here and there and you could feasibly pay off such a small debt simply by fencing some of the stuff you came out of chargen with at a tidy profit.

Ok does a guy with amensia who finds his records need to buy off the flaw? Does the player even want to buy off the flaw even if he found all of his records etc?

Again it is if the flaw can be used as a plot hook to create a story then it should be allowed as long as the player is willing to deal with it. If the player is not willing to treat it as a flaw then the GM has every right to deduct karma or replace with a new flaw. Not all flaws have to be bought off with karma and this one in particular never states it does. There are ways to game the system where running is effectively pointless for the cash. Even then it gives motivations and reason for the character to be involved in shadowrunning. Why would the famous CEO and family man with a trust fund ever get into shadowrunning?

I also look at the fact that significant disadvantages come with it as well, including wanted and enemy if not paid off. The real point is if the player can pay it off during play then let him off the hook without the karma. Unless you feel that adding karma for things like enemy, wanted or record on file deserve to be given to the player. I have no problems for players buying off flaws for psychological issues such as amensia, addiction, compulsion, or prejudice as that is supposed to represent self improvement like skills. However, flaws that can be addressed under roleplaying given several sessions should be allowed to move on. Same with cash, contacts, gear, etc.

[Omenowl]

And by the way fencing gear gives you .3 of its base cost. While a player may get some money for taking the flaw, he does not get much unless he really does some tricks with character gen.


That said the GM is well within his right to deny certain things such as high lifestyle, day job and fame so the flaw is effectively meaningless.

[Synner667]

Ok does a guy with amensia who finds his records need to buy off the flaw? Does the player even want to buy off the flaw even if he found all of his records etc?

Again it is if the flaw can be used as a plot hook to create a story then it should be allowed as long as the player is willing to deal with it. If the player is not willing to treat it as a flaw then the GM has every right to deduct karma or replace with a new flaw. Not all flaws have to be bought off with karma and this one in particular never states it does. There are ways to game the system where running is effectively pointless for the cash. Even then it gives motivations and reason for the character to be involved in shadowrunning. Why would the famous CEO and family man with a trust fund ever get into shadowrunning?

I also look at the fact that significant disadvantages come with it as well, including wanted and enemy if not paid off. The real point is if the player can pay it off during play then let him off the hook without the karma. Unless you feel that adding karma for things like enemy, wanted or record on file deserve to be given to the player. I have no problems for players buying off flaws for psychological issues such as amensia, addiction, compulsion, or prejudice as that is supposed to represent self improvement like skills. However, flaws that can be addressed under roleplaying given several sessions should be allowed to move on. Same with cash, contacts, gear, etc.

So, in effect, "here's loads of character points because the game gives them to you, but they actually mean nothing, so just ignore them whenever you like".

Again, one of the big problems with point based RPGs - more so with a partially points based RPG.

Ads and Disads are bribes to get characters to behave...
...People who want to roleplay a crippled, but genius hacker, will do so - regardless of the bribe.

If you bribe people, they take the bribe and ignore the reason.
If you make them define their character and roleplay, you get the same character - but done because that's what they want to play.

SR [and other RPGs] didn't used to have Ads and Disads, but didn't lack characters with the Ads and Disads people now expect to get character points for.

[LurkerOutThere]

Errr on thing to keep in mind, that custom lifestyle build is not legal. THere is a cap on your security level based on other factors. I don't have my books in front of me right now but that doesn't look like it's within the rules.

The cardinal rule: If you don't like something your players are doing from a character build standpoint then JUST SAY NO.

[Glyph]

It's not illegal. What you are thinking about is how Entertainment can only be one increment more than Comforts. The GM can limit implausible combinations, but someone is a bad neighborhood, living in a spartan apartment with paranoid security, certainly fits the mindset of many runners. That high of a security rating might be counterproductive, though. Rating: 4 security is conspicuous. Having it in a Low Neighborhood might make a lot of those poorer folks curious as to what the character is going to so much trouble to protect.

[Omenowl]

So, in effect, "here's loads of character points because the game gives them to you, but they actually mean nothing, so just ignore them whenever you like".

Again, one of the big problems with point based RPGs - more so with a partially points based RPG.

Ads and Disads are bribes to get characters to behave...
...People who want to roleplay a crippled, but genius hacker, will do so - regardless of the bribe.

If you bribe people, they take the bribe and ignore the reason.
If you make them define their character and roleplay, you get the same character - but done because that's what they want to play.

SR [and other RPGs] didn't used to have Ads and Disads, but didn't lack characters with the Ads and Disads people now expect to get character points for.

That is wonderful except if you have a lot of players who expect the GM to do everything. They have no family, no weaknesses and lack any depth because there is no advantage to take any of those things. Look it is another mysterious brooding stranger who carries a gun and is overly serious, or the person weaved a story about themselves to give a leg up such as I am the daughter of the president, etc... Then you have the 1 player who does the 3 dimensional Ex cop, alcoholic whose wife mysteriously disappeared, is in debt to the mob, works part time trying to keep a roof over his head and Vinny from breaking his kneecaps. Without flaws mechanically the 3d character is still just the same as the other characters with no incentive not to suddenly decide he will stop drinking, move on from his wife to find a new lady. You still have that option without flaws, but you have no constraint from breaking that basic idea.

So are you saying that karma rewards for roleplaying should not be factored in because it bribes players to act in character? Merits and flaws whether you like the mechanical effects or not give incentive to the player to take both a more unique character and one that gives the GM a mechanical method of encouraging character concept (addiction, allergy, unlucky, etc). The player has willingly entered a pact with the GM and other players to have certain quirks and is expected to play them. It also gives plot hooks and if enforced and does help round out a character along with encouraging a player to have some kind of depth. The nice thing about SR4 is that players are not automatically given a fatal flaw (looking at you White Wolf).

Lots of games had Advantages and disadvantages. Top Secret (TSR) being one from the early 80s which had quirks and flaws and merits that was point based. Other games had random advantages where you rolled to see what you got such as WFRP. The reason random dice rolling gave way to a point system was so characters would start off at roughly an equal footing.

[Cain]

I'm somewhat dismayed at the number of responses that say: "Screw the players".

You never screw your players. You work with them, to create a more enjoyable game.

Have you tried talking to your players? Tell them honestly: "I don't know how to balance this flaw in game. I might skip past it, or I might go overboard trying to bring it into play. I don't think either one would be fun, so what do you think should happen?"

Try and see how the players want these flaws to play out. Work it into their backstories, and use other negative aspects of the flaw. For example, if everyone knows you're In Debt to the Mafia, you might take a hit to your reputation. Your Day Job might mean you're easily located. Or maybe the players have other ideas about how to make it work. If they don't, then you're justified in saying: "Since neither of us can balance this flaw, maybe we should choose one we can balance."

[Degausser]

Thanks for all the responses. I wasn't trying to screw the players, or give them free BP, I was merely wondering if there was a consensus within the community if some stuff should be eratta-ed out because it was stupid powerful or whatnot. For example, the old "Agent Smith" thing, if I had a player trying to do that, I would ask you guys, and you would say "The Agent Smith thing is stupid powerful (when it worked) and don't let your player do it." That was the kind of info I was looking for.

Yes, of course my players all have backstories for their flaws, but by and large, I tend to ignore backstories AT THIS POINT. Yes, I can bring them into play later, but I have met too many players are are expert BSers and can spin a story about any flaw they want for any character. That's not the point, the point is "Giving players essentially free BP over other characters who decided not to be cheesy."

As for the least-addressed issue, according to Runner's companion, a 5 point closet prejudice has an intuition+willpower threshold of 0, meaning it is an auto success. There is literally NO downside I can see for that negative quality, any help?