[X] My Assistant

[MikeKozar]

Why?

Because he'll die otherwise? I mean, I guess they don't have to save him. I'd hate to railroad the plot, you know? Do what feels right for your character.

The GM can use the fact that your character exists against you.

I'm pretty sure he does that every time he targets you with a spell, weapon, or hack. Come to think of it, a character who didn't exist would be pretty much invincible. Maybe I'll roll a character who doesn't exist for my next game. I'll get permission from my GM first, of course.

What's the point making everything a life & death situation?

I'm sorry, I think you have this confused with the forum for Candyland.

It's usually just plain GM fiat.

I usually get my GM Fiat with bacon and extra cheese.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

You're quite welcome. I'm glad I could help you understand the game. Have fun!

[Jhaiisiin]

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

It may seem obvious, but I've dealt with numerous GMs that played it as Me against the players. I've had players try to run it that way too. It's obvious to some, completely foreign to many others.

[Paul]

A day late and a dollar short, but here's my two yen:

Power gamers, minmaxers and other types of douchebags end up doing one of two things in my game: quitting, because they can't stand that I don't care about how they raped the rules to get down-or conversely they learn to game. Take all the points you want homes, I'm the GM. I really am god. If I want you, trust me I got you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because he'll die otherwise? I mean, I guess they don't have to save him. I'd hate to railroad the plot, you know? Do what feels right for your character.

I'm pretty sure he does that every time he targets you with a spell, weapon, or hack. Come to think of it, a character who didn't exist would be pretty much invincible. Maybe I'll roll a character who doesn't exist for my next game. I'll get permission from my GM first, of course.

I'm sorry, I think you have this confused with the forum for Candyland.

I usually get my GM Fiat with bacon and extra cheese.

You're quite welcome. I'm glad I could help you understand the game. Have fun!

You know, You are really not being all that helpful...

Keep the Faith

[Cheshyr]

Half this thread isn't being that helpful. I'd daresay, a good majority of the content is people being contrary for the sake of being contrary. I see no evidence that anyone has actually made an attempt to understand where the other posters are coming from. Their opinion is right, and they must convince the ignorant masses...

[MikeKozar]

You know, You are really not being all that helpful...

Keep the Faith

I'm sorry, were we being helpful? I thought the thread had denigrated into name calling. Shall I pretend that was a serious post he made? Here's one without sarcasm.

(MikeKozar @ Oct 19 2009, 10:47 PM) *
...then his team is going to have to save his silly ass.
>Why?

Because he left an opening that the GM decided to take advantage of. As I have explained before. At length. Repeatedly. In very small words. But here we go again: If the CyberSam decides not to invest in ultrasonics, is it wrong for the GM to let the opposition use Invisibility? Is he morally bound to change the game so as not to exploit the player's weakness? Of course not. The player is responsible for making a character that can take what the GM throws at him. If he thinks the GM targetting his weakness is unfair, he should fix the weakness, not cry about it.

(MikeKozar @ Oct 19 2009, 10:47 PM) *
If you take a Negative Quality, even one you think the GM can't use against you, the GM can use it against you.
>The GM can use the fact that your character exists against you.

>What's the point making everything a life & death situation?

The point is to challenge the characters with an interesting story. If a character can't be beaten in a fair fight, the GM is going to come at him sideways to keep it interesting. I'm not talking about executing the problem character with a sniper, I'm talking about stranding the Samurai in a social situation for laughs. I'm taking about the hacker getting into a fist-fight with an elderly janitor. I'm talking about making the game interesting. That's the point, van Dainig: It's supposed to be a challenge.

(MikeKozar @ Oct 19 2009, 10:47 PM) *
>If you want to insist taking it is RAW, then remember that the GM using it in the adventure is equally RAW.

>It's usually just plain GM fiat.

GM Fiat is when he *changes* the rules to keep the story moving. In this case he would be obeying the rules and putting an obstacle in your way to be overcome - like the guy who took Allergy:Gold getting locked in the Executive Washroom and realizing he's going to have to deal with gold-plated everything. It's not the GM changing the rules, it's the GM being a dick. If you forced the issue when he asked you not to take the Negative Quality, then he's only responding in kind.

(MikeKozar @ Oct 19 2009, 10:47 PM) *
Play *with* your GM, not against him. He's got more imaginary guns then you do.

>Thank you, Captain Obvious.

You're welcome, jerk.




Tymeaus, you seem like a cool guy. You've helped me out. I'm kind of surprised you're painting *me* as the guy trying to start a flamewar in this little exchange, but I honestly thought I was taking the high road. In the future I will crush those who oppose me with ruthless browbeating instead of cutting remarks.

[3278]

Okay, so I am starting a new game soon, and some of my players are OBVIOUSLY min-maxing the crap out of their characters. They are reaching for every rules supplement in order to get some more points, and it's starting to worry me.

Let's start right there. My suggestion would be to talk with the players [as has been mentioned]. Let them know you've noticed this, and talk about it. If I were you, I'd tell them, "Hey, you don't have to get out your copy of Min-maxing the Munchkin Way. You want 5 points? Take 'em. 10? Fine. What I want is for your sheet to reflect the actual human being you intend to play. If you need 10 more points to play the guy you want to play, that's no problem. But let's not be intellectually shifty about the whole thing over a couple of build points, yeah?"

The other solution, of course, is to simply not play with the people who have this mindset, whether it be because they feel small in real life and want to fantasize big, or because they feel roleplaying is an "Us vs the GM" kind of game, or just because they like "getting one over on the rules," or whatever their reasons are. This is usually not an option: you have the stable you have, so work with them. Over time, you can turn a munchkin into a deep, considerate roleplayer if you work at it.

My suggestion? Play a few sessions without dice or character sheets. Set the rules aside, and show them that these flaws are more than just dice, they're actual flaws possessed by the actual person being roleplayed. And always, always, always make it clear that good roleplaying earns way more karma than bullshit min-maxing. [Doesn't hurt to drop some lines here and there to stimulate the meme within your table-culture that "min-max" means "tiny penis," either.]

One player has chosen "Prejudice-Technomancers, Closet" meaning he gets 5 BP (for hating a small group) and his social dice suffer no penalties, and he auto-succeeds on his willpower-intuition checks to resist acting on it. Isn't this like free BP?

You shouldn't let it be. The rules are your bitch, not the other way around. If someone's getting something for nothing and you don't want them to, don't let it be for nothing. Insist he roleplay his disdain, and make it cost him. Not much - it's 5 damned points; he shouldn't get his legs cut off for it - but make it cost. If he just wants to ROLLplay, tell him there are some very nice wargames in the world, and he should consider those.

I mean, he has to role-play that he doesn't like 'mancers a bit, but suffers no game penalties for it.

If roleplaying isn't a game penalty, you're doing it wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The dice and rules are just a tool; don't rely on them, and don't let them fuck up your game.

Debt seems a little broken, it GIVES you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 AND 5 BP, and it only adds a bit to your cost of living. Sure I can pull super-dick moves like saying the mob "Never received this month's payment" but, really that's me clearly breaking the rules set down by the game.

Debt in Shadowrun works more-or-less like debt in the real world: yes, at first you get ahead. But then you have to pay back what you got, plus interest, and in Shadowrun 4, you have to pay it back, plus interest, plus karma. For a few build points and some money up-front, he's cost himself much more money and karma as time goes on. That's no bargain, except in the short term...just like credit in the real world.

The player also took a 5 point day job. That gives him money AND BP, and locks out 10 hours worth of work a week. Really, that's nothing. Unless I am a complete dick and make all their runs during his job's hours (and then he would just quit, and have his 5 BP for nothing.) In fact, what if he does that? First session, just declares "I quit my dayjob." and BOOM, 5 BP for nothing.

Well, RAW specify you have to buy off flaws, so if he's a rules lawyer [and won't listen to reason and can't be beaten about the head with a stick], point that out to him. Otherwise, I'd find some way to make those 5 points cost: a former co-worker sees him on a job and recognizes him, or he's constantly getting calls from them asking him to come back, or his boss is pissed that he quit on short notice and threatens to turn his SINless ass into the police for tax fraud. You don't want to penalize him, per se, but you do want those points to have some cost.

Okay, at first, this one seems like a no-brainer. Just a bit more versatility to control your lifestyle, but it can be really cheesy really fast. Just buy Neghborhood-Low, Necesities-Mid, Security-High, Entertainment-Squatter, Comfort-Squatter, and Boom, super-secure apartment for much cheaper than a normal lifestyle.

So he's never well-rested, because his neighborhood is loud and he has barely any soundproofing and his bed is an old Army cot with a broken leg. He gets weird illnesses from the parasites living in his building, and the roaches scare away all his dates. His friends don't really want to chill with him because his trid barely works, and with the water rationing, he smells like shit half the time. He's constantly bored because he has no money to go out, and he begins to feel a queer detachment from humanity...

Dude, this is roleplaying. If you're not helping to feed the role, many players will just take whatever they can and feel like kings of something. But if you make the game about the role, and not about the jobs [or the combat], suddenly the "victory condition" changes. As GM, you're the one setting that victory condition, and you can let the rules and the players make a bitch out of you, or you and the players can work together, with the rules as a guideline, to produce the maximum amount of fun for everyone at the table.

[MikeKozar]

Dude, this is roleplaying. If you're not helping to feed the role, many players will just take whatever they can and feel like kings of something. But if you make the game about the role, and not about the jobs [or the combat], suddenly the "victory condition" changes. As GM, you're the one setting that victory condition, and you can let the rules and the players make a bitch out of you, or you and the players can work together, with the rules as a guideline, to produce the maximum amount of fun for everyone at the table.

Bravo!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm sorry, were we being helpful? I thought the thread had denigrated into name calling. Shall I pretend that was a serious post he made? Here's one without sarcasm.


Because he left an opening that the GM decided to take advantage of. As I have explained before. At length. Repeatedly. In very small words. But here we go again: If the CyberSam decides not to invest in ultrasonics, is it wrong for the GM to let the opposition use Invisibility? Is he morally bound to change the game so as not to exploit the player's weakness? Of course not. The player is responsible for making a character that can take what the GM throws at him. If he thinks the GM targetting his weakness is unfair, he should fix the weakness, not cry about it.



The point is to challenge the characters with an interesting story. If a character can't be beaten in a fair fight, the GM is going to come at him sideways to keep it interesting. I'm not talking about executing the problem character with a sniper, I'm talking about stranding the Samurai in a social situation for laughs. I'm taking about the hacker getting into a fist-fight with an elderly janitor. I'm talking about making the game interesting. That's the point, van Dainig: It's supposed to be a challenge.


GM Fiat is when he *changes* the rules to keep the story moving. In this case he would be obeying the rules and putting an obstacle in your way to be overcome - like the guy who took Allergy:Gold getting locked in the Executive Washroom and realizing he's going to have to deal with gold-plated everything. It's not the GM changing the rules, it's the GM being a dick. If you forced the issue when he asked you not to take the Negative Quality, then he's only responding in kind.



Tymeaus, you seem like a cool guy. You've helped me out. I'm kind of surprised you're painting *me* as the guy trying to start a flamewar in this little exchange, but I honestly thought I was taking the high road. In the future I will crush those who oppose me with ruthless browbeating instead of cutting remarks.

Naaaaaah... You don't need to crush anyone... sorry if I came off a bit harsh... have not had any sleep for the last 40 hours or so... Just having a tough night is all...

As far as Negative Qualities... they are there to foster quirks and roleplaying opportunities... using them should provide an abundance of hooks for which the GM to ustilize to hang you... in our games, anything goes, jut don't be surprised if your negative qualities get used against you...

I think that Negative Qualities are a very useful tool for botht eh player and the GM... You may just have to approach the use (or exploitation) of them a little creatively...

keep the Faith

[MikeKozar]

Naaaaaah... You don't need to crush anyone... sorry if I came off a bit harsh... have not had any sleep for the last 40 hours or so... Just having a tough night is all...

Man, I hear that. I'm going to be first in line for a Sleep Regulator when those come out.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Man, I hear that. I'm going to be first in line for a Sleep Regulator when those come out.

Ditto... at this point even the good drugs are refusing to work...

[Cheshyr]

Ditto... at this point even the good drugs are refusing to work...

You get insomnia too? It's a rough time some nights/days.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You get insomnia too? It's a rough time some nights/days.

Rarely, but I am going on 40 hours now, and still not out... Yep pretty rough...
In this case, I think that My mind is going at high speed processing all the things that I have been working on for multiple games (Shadowrun and Earthdawn) that I just can't slow it down enough to get any sleep...

Keep the Faith...

[3278]

I find a good 10 or 15 miles of walking, or a few hours hard swimming, puts the lights out pretty quick.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I find a good 10 or 15 miles of walking, or a few hours hard swimming, puts the lights out pretty quick.

This is very true...

[Jhaiisiin]

I play cribbage myself when I need to beat insomnia. Having to count up scores and playing cards seems to use just enough of both sides of my brain to ease it down and get me to a place where it can finally take a breather.

[Cthulhudreams]

Cthulhudreams, and what in in nine hells made you think that the Sixth World was a nice place where NPCs would decide not to screw someone over merely because the piece of cyber they would normally implant into anyone else happens to hurt more. As a player it is YOUR job to keep your character safe and not expect the DM to hold your hand and babysit you. Sometimes bad shit happens and you need to roll with the punches.


Yes, forcibly implanting cyber of any kind is probably really fragging rare, but there are times when it simply makes sense for an NPC to do so to a captured character, and I'm not only referring to bombs.

Sorry, every published adventure in any genre I have ever seen with the 'PCs get captured' explictly calls for GM fiat to do so. So lets be clear here, this is a move the GM is making happen because he feels like being a cock -> PCs typically go down fighting when backed into a corner unless you GM fiat it up and almost every PC carries basic defences against the inhalants, and carries guns against all the injected stuff. Realistic ally if you're capturing PCs you're saying 'hahaha, screw you' and bilking them way more BPs than they got from the disadvantage.

Secondly, why the hell would the corps ever implant cyberware into someone forcibly other than a cranial bomb? Seriously, what would be the point? The guy is a mage, and you know he gets punished as is for implanting cyberware. If you want him to do something for you (the ONLY reason to ever capture someone and then let them go), you need to install a compulsion (the bomb), but then you don't deliberately screw up the thing you want that you captured him for (the magic). You'd have to be some kind of retarded.

So basically, you're making the world's most contrived situation in a attempt to completely screw a player.

Most of the 'disadvantages have to mean something' people in this thread are just being passive aggressive. It's like drugs man, if you don't like it, say no. Don't:

A) Subtract 6 months worth of character progression

B) Impose 35 BP of negative qualities for no reason what so ever

C) Make extremely contrived situations to kill the character you don't like

Which is seriously what is being promoted here as 'good games mastery'

It's obvious to me that the problem with most games is the players and the GM don't talk to each other about expectations. Talk straight when you don't like something. Don't be two faced and let it into your game then screw someone for doing it.

[MikeKozar]

Secondly, why the hell would the corps ever implant cyberware into someone forcibly other than a cranial bomb? Seriously, what would be the point?

I like your point about straight talk regarding expectations, and I agree that this is probably a case of the GM being a dick. However, you did ask why cyberware other then a cranial bomb would get implanted, and oddly enough I have an example. Mind you, it is heinous f*ckery most foul, but still.

I'd like to introduce you (if you haven't yet had the pleasure) to a man named George Alec Effinger. He wrote three books in the late 80's, the first of which is entitled When Gravity Fails. It is one of the more influential Cyberpunk works - If William Gibson gave us the Matrix, Effinger gave us Skillsofts and Personafixes. His protagonist is a small-time hustler with a crippling drug habit that he seems completely unaware of.

Marid is unique in his world for being neither cybernetically enhanced nor controlled by the crime lord who unquestionably rules the city; due to a series of brutal murders both of those are going to change. The crime lord forcefully adopts him as an investigator, and makes sure he is augmented so as to stand a chance of success. The boss doesn't take no for an answer, and indeed never asks Marid's feelings on the matter. Marid is given a set of wires and a selection of chips, including one that completely blocks pain, and one that turns him into a feral killing machine. Both save his life. In the end, he's saved his neighborhood from a serial killer, and all it cost him was his self-respect, independence, a few close friends and possibly his soul.

In this case the upgrades were a matter of the boss making Marid his property - they combined significant upgrades with some terrifying loyalty compulsions, if I recall correctly. I've always thought a cranial bomb was a little crude; a permanent solution to a temporary problem. After all, if you give a man a Pain Editor, nobody says you can only reduce his pain. If you give a man a simrig, you decide what dreams he gets to dream with it. If you give a man a personafix, why would you let him take it out? A cranial bomb is the least of your worries.

[Dakka Dakka]

Interesting and totally true in case of mundanes. Awakened Characters however would not completely fit this profile. While augmenting the cybernetically you reduce their magical power.

If a crimelord or any other antagonist would want something of the character and implants him to a) make him compliant B) ensure his survival against the opposition, he would probably weigh the pros and cons of this tactic and do pre-op diagnostics to find out if anyone has problems with 'ware.

Why would he use cyberware anyways, if the Influence Spell is available. Another possibility would be just plain lying to the characters as to what has been done to ensure their cooperation cf. Escape from NY/LA

[Cthulhudreams]

If you give a man a personafix, why would you let him take it out? A cranial bomb is the least of your worries.

It's not clear a personafix even requires hardware in SR. The rules for that stuff are 'handwavium' which is the same as 'GM fiat'

Also, fitting a PC with a personafix is the same as killing him, so it's not like it matters.

[Saint Sithney]

As far as Negative Qualities... they are there to foster quirks and roleplaying opportunities... using them should provide an abundance of hooks for which the GM to ustilize to hang you... in our games, anything goes, jut don't be surprised if your negative qualities get used against you...

I think that Negative Qualities are a very useful tool for botht eh player and the GM... You may just have to approach the use (or exploitation) of them a little creatively...

keep the Faith

That's a far more concise way of expressing point I was trying to make. Plot happens.
I'm certainly not going to destroy a player outright for his choices, but I'll attack 'em all right. I've got to make him defend those choices to help solidify the character. And if his history is a big blank, then I'll fill it in. And, despite how I may sound when I say so, I ain't mean about it. The reward for a GM is helping develop these characters so that they'll take the story in directions you couldn't even imagine.

[kzt]

Secondly, why the hell would the corps ever implant cyberware into someone forcibly other than a cranial bomb? Seriously, what would be the point?

I had an NPC captured once and the plan was to have a simrig implanted in her so they could make "movies".

[Ravor]

Ok I waited until this morning to respond figuring that you'd all get "mellow, happy Ravor" from flirting with a certain pretty young lady, sadly last night was "interesting" and my exwife is being more of a slitch than normal so ya'll get cranky Ravor instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Dakka Dakka your entire post just makes me want to bang my head against a wall. The only thing that I'm going to say about the nonsense of trying to compare the impact of Sensitive System between mundanes and the awakened is so what, take a look at any number of other flaws that effect the Awakened different than mundanes. The comparason between the two Mages is a good point, but my responce is simply to point out that the second Mage got the extra Build Points/Karma from taking teh flaw so it's time for him to pay the piper.

Oh and I frankly don't care whether or not Essence can be regained, with the existance of Essence Holes tis a moot point.


Cthulhudreams are you seriously gonig to claim that you can't think of any reason to implant cyber into someone other than a fragging bomb? Hell, just off the top of my head I can see wanting to implant eyes and ears in order to keep tabs on the perp, commlink/simmodule, 'jacks, and datalocks are also fairly good choices with very little imagination required. And the idea that no-one would do this because it lowers the Mage's Magic, excuse me? The implants I've mentioned have a fairly low Essence cost and the ability to keep your thumb over the Mage is a hell of alot more valuable than the lost Magic would ever be.

As for the idea that capturing someone is done via "fiat" I call bullshit and will leave it at that.

[Whipstitch]

Data filters are another one that could easily be considered a mandatory part of an employment contract, particularly since mages are really good at seeing things they're not supposed to. After all, even assensing is pretty useless if you can't remember the results for longer than a couple of minutes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Data filters are another one that could easily be considered a mandatory part of an employment contract, particularly since mages are really good at seeing things they're not supposed to. After all, even assensing is pretty useless if you can't remember the results for longer than a couple of minutes.

No Argument Here...

As an aside, My character was captured and was forcibly implanted Skill wires (Low Rating) with a Skill Chip and place into a work prison making electronic devices... what a bitch... Still waiting to escape that one...

Anyways... Keep the Faith