[X] My Assistant

[Saint Sithney]

Exactly - the guy deliberately trying to put players who take Incompetence: Artisan into death traps is just being a jerk - if you don't like it, tell the player up front. No-one is so unreasonable that they won't listen to you telling them that.

Why subject them to an endless series of deathtraps instead over a 5BP negative quality?

I sort of assumed that "Death Traps" was hyperbole. But I still would never consider Incompetence to be free points.

How would Incompetence: Artisan come up in my game? Well, what it implies is that the character is completely incapable of singing a song, drawing a line, imagining a scene, writing believable dialogue, coming up with a story. This character is incapable of creativity. If the player plays his character in this way - is willing to - I've got no problems with it. If he comes up with clever ideas and shares them, then it's bad roleplaying and that's potential karma down the tubes.

No, that's exactly what you are advocating. I'm not the guy who suggested forcible implanting of cyberware into sensitive system mages!

But, again, it is you who is arguing that you can not possibly forcibly implant cyberware into someone because they are a mage and especially because they have taken a negative quality that might negatively impact them. Sometimes a story involves bad things happening to the runners. Crime isn't a glass elevator to success. There are plenty of pitfalls to affect the players and one of those pitfalls is essence loss. And when a player chooses to double their susceptibility to that pitfall, he risks double the damage. It is something that can come up, and, by taking the quality, the player is outright suggesting it.

[Cthulhudreams]

It actually says in the setting material that when people without SINs are caught by the corporations they are illegally killed/'disappeared' rather than going to trial. Why would shadowrunners expect to survive getting caught and instead keep trying until they die to run?

The videogame character response is to surrender, because you're trading on meta knowledge that the GM won't Total Party Kill you.

Finally ravor: You're advocating taking 5-6 months off character progress off your players - which is way disproportionate to the cost of the flaw. A 10 BP disadvantage is supposed to be worth 10 BP (or 20 karma). Taking 50! karma off someone is just.. what the hell? Especially considering he still has the disadvantage at the end of that.

But, again, it is you who is arguing that you can not possibly forcibly implant cyberware into someone because they are a mage and especially because they have taken a negative quality that might negatively impact them. Sometimes a story involves bad things happening to the runners. Crime isn't a glass elevator to success. There are plenty of pitfalls to affect the players and one of those pitfalls is essence loss. And when a player chooses to double their susceptibility to that pitfall, he risks double the damage. It is something that can come up, and, by taking the quality, the player is outright suggesting it.

Yeah, pretty much it's a total jerk move. You're taking 6 months progress (6 months!) off someone for no real reason (as pointed out, it makes no sense to capture a mage and implant them with cyberware), while the guy who took distinctive style or Hung out to dry is twiddling his fingers. Or he's taken allergy: Gold and just doesn't wear gold underwear.

Allergy: Gold is actually in the book, on the sample characters.

I just cannot understand the desire to gut your players for 50 karma for no obvious reason. It's not that it might negatively impact them, you are wrecking their character. Sensitive system is more than balanced by the reduced opportunity to take stuff that is good for mages.

[toturi]

And once again, the only way you have to "fiat" a capture by designing the opposing force to be "just right" is if you have some piss poor players who treat the characters like video game sprites who would rather fight to the death as oppose to lay down arms and live to fight another day.

Well, I am not too sure about the PCs, but IIRC the most professional of NPC Grunts(Ratings 5 and 6) are supposed to fight to the death or at least until incapacitated.

[Dakka Dakka]

How would Incompetence: Artisan come up in my game? Well, what it implies is that the character is completely incapable of singing a song, drawing a line, imagining a scene, writing believable dialogue, coming up with a story. This character is incapable of creativity. If the player plays his character in this way - is willing to - I've got no problems with it. If he comes up with clever ideas and shares them, then it's bad roleplaying and that's potential karma down the tubes.

As long as it is artistic creativity that is correct but if you extrapolate that to any skill or use of skill this is blowing the flaw out of proportion. A character with Incompetence: Artisan could design cars but what would come out would probably be an Edsel or a 1st Generation Fiat Multipla. Creative planning and problem solving shouldn't be out of reach for the character either.

[Ravor]

Nice try, but what the setting actually says is that SINless who don't have something that the corps want can and do "get disappeared", and as you've pointed out in this very thread, Shadowrunners usually have something that the corps want and so aren't nearly as likely to meet that fate.

Not at my table you don't bet against TPKs using metagaming knowledge, I'll gladly kill you all if I think it is what the NPCs would do in that situation.

As for your last point, once again, so what? If you don't want to take the chance of having a flaw bite you in the ass then don't take said flaw, my NPCs don't care either way and niether do I. Although if I were worried about balancing the costs of the flaws AND if I agreed with your numbers I'd figure that the reason Senstive System is only worth twenty karma is the fact that the character only has a risk of lost as opposed to a certainly of it. Your mage could go the entire campaign without having cyber forcibly implanted if he is smart in which case it could be argued that he got free points, but the chance still exists that he might lose a point or two of magic.

*EDIT*

Oh, and as I've pointed out, there are times that it makes perfect sense to cyber a mage, especially with things that make it easier to keep tabs on him.

*EDIT 2.0*

And I don't agree that even if the Mage lost fifty karma that his character is "wrecked" or ruined at all. Sure one-trick-ponies are going to be more hurt than a reasonably built character but even they can get back on their feet and make their newfound freedom work for them by implanting choice cyber/bio into their shiny new Essence hole.

[Cthulhudreams]

So you're totally okay with making one guy at your table play with a character that is worth 375 BP while everyone else plays with a 400 BP character? I'll be upfront and say that is exactly the situation we are discussing.

Now for some logic to support that statement you subscribe to one of the following positions

1) Oppotunities are not worth anything - which you need to hold to say that Sensative system with no cyberwere is free points - in which case you are completely screwing the guy by removing 25 BP/50 karma

2) Oppotunities are worth something - which you need to hold to say that it's not that bad, because he get get stuff installed - but that means that you are riding this guy like a little bitch because his disadvantage was worth the closed oppotunity of getting cyberware, so you're double charging him for a disadvantage that he'd already paid for!

Whichever position you hold, you're really nailing this guy. You're completely shafting him, because you're making him pay twice for a disadvantage he keeps at the end of the process! Yeah!

Nice try, but what the setting actually says is that SINless who don't have something that the corps want can and do "get disappeared", and as you've pointed out in this very thread, Shadowrunners usually have something that the corps want and so aren't nearly as likely to meet that fate.

What? The corps can get what they want off any shadowrunners - any particular shadowrunner the corps capture is totally interchangeable and completely valueless. If they've captured some, presumably it was because the shadowrunners were trying to do something to them. Then it's entirely worthwhile to kill them (to make the cost higher when the opposite johnson wants to hire a second team), and you just go hire someone else. After all the guys you've got in the cells are bad otherwise they wouldn't have got caught. Why wouldn't you just kill them? Any situation to keep them alive to do some other shit other than mind rip then execute them is a total joke.

@Saint: As I pointed out before, you are doing one of the other passive aggressive jerk moves - you're making a 5 BP disadvantage completely crippling because you don't like it. Being unable to come up with some fast talk when asked by the cop what do you think you're doing renders you completely unable to function as a shadowrunner AND has nothing at all to do with the Artisan skill. All it does is make him unable to paint a work of art, or do a performance of a song. Zilch to do with coming up with a creative infilitration route of the Renraku facility.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Look it boils down to this:

When you want to capture PCs, you need opposition that is almost, but not quite, lethal. To weak and the PCs will kill it. Too strong and the PCs will die. Also the opposition has to have the PCs in a situation where the PCs cannot retreat or escape. (PCs are usually crack at SERE).

Finding the 'sweet spot' and actually capturing the PCs is almost impossible unless you're just changing it up on the fly - or more commonly using totally overwhelming force or starting in media res in a situation where escape is impossible. If the PCs cannot use smarts and avoid the situation, escape or fight there way out, it is blatant railroading.

Say in WEG starwars, at least one of the published adventures had the PCs start in a 'no escape' situation, and in one of the others, you're hyperdriving and random into an interdictor cruiser with the ultimatum of 'surrender or die'. Both of which are blatant railroading as there is zip the PCs can do about that.

Kind of like the Millenium Falcon going to Alderan with Luke and Ben (and the Droids) and finding it destroyed, eventually getting snagegd by the death star... absolutely nothing that they could do about it, and yet it was an essential plot point of the movie (Rescuing Leah)... without the ship's capture, Leah would have died...

Have a little faith in your Gamemaster there....

Keep the Faith

[Ravor]

In a classless free form system such as Shadowrun yeah I have no problem whatsoever about someone being worth less Karma then someone else, after all I doubt you have a problem with someone playing a 400 Buildpoint character while everyone else plays a character ranging from 405-435 Buildpoints because they choose to take flaws.

On the other hand, YOU are saying that somehow the Universe should coddle a character by making sure that his defects don't "overly" hinder him, hell that is just as stupid as the people who want the Universe to force someone who can't hold a note sing for his life just for the sake of doing so. -- Disclaimer -- On the other hand, if the events that led to a Runner having to sing for his life actually made sense then he is rightly boned, I just don't see that as likely happening outside of James' Bond Land.

As for your "logical" trains of thought, I don't care about either, I didn't force the character in question to take that (or any) flaw and I don't care whether or not he is getting shafted on point costs, just as it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if he had gone the entire campaign avoiding implanting a single piece of cyberware. *EDIT* On the other hand I also don't buy the idea that it somehow "ruins", "wrecks", "gimps", or otherwise makes the character unplayable either. */EDIT*


As for the reasons to use captured Runners as opposed to simply hiring someone else, well firstly we've been told time and time again that there aren't really all that many "real" Runners, secondly it is probably cheaper since the Runner's freedom is part of the payment, and thirdly the Runners aren't really in a position to say no so the corp can get them to do things that they wouldn't normally be willing to partake in, after "suitable" measures to ensure that they stay on task are taken of course.

[MikeKozar]

No, you wouldn't get xp for that. Not unless his prejudice actually hindered that character in some tangible way. Wailing in angst wouldn't be worth any karma. That's just roleplaying.

Now if the above character, in the middle of a run, happened to see a memeber of the Ambershard Clan, and endangered himself and his mission to take his revenge, he would get Karma. (think Marty McFly from Back to the Future... any time someone called him "Chicken" and he acted out on it, he would get Karma.) But just Boo-Hooing his character history is not only annoying, but also not worthy of Karma.

Rule of thumb: If it "hurts", it was worth karma.

That might be how it works in the World of Darkness...what I was pointing out is on pg 269 of SR4a, where they explain the extra Karma awards suggested for Good Roleplaying & Humor and Drama. Marty could have earned a point for either when those situations come up, so there are some overlaps in the SR4/WoD rules.

The part of the WoD ruleset that terrifies me is "endangered himself and his mission to take his revenge" being rewarded. The last thing I want to do is get my players looking for ways to wreck the game because it's worth points.

[Saint Sithney]

As long as it is artistic creativity that is correct but if you extrapolate that to any skill or use of skill this is blowing the flaw out of proportion. A character with Incompetence: Artisan could design cars but what would come out would probably be an Edsel or a 1st Generation Fiat Multipla. Creative planning and problem solving shouldn't be out of reach for the character either.

I'm not trying to say an uncreative character can't fast talk if he's got con skill. Dice are dice. What I'm suggesting is that artisan covers all creative disciplines, from writing to sculpting to music, and Incompetence suggests that a person is fundamentally flawed such that no amount of instruction or practice can ever allow them to do this thing. So, the player has chosen to play a character who couldn't tell a story to save his life. Someone who is so artistically, well, incompetent, that he couldn't tell you whether Transformers 2 was better than The Godfather. (Hell, I bet we all know someone like that.) Anyway, I expect a character like that to act a certain way, and if he acts contrary, he is forfeiting karma. That's why it's a disadvantage.
And, really, what is the difference between telling a good story and coming up with a good plan? Good ideas, that's another matter, but plans are fiction in form and, usually, function.


I will now preform for you a play entitled "Why I would never allow a player to take Incompetence: Heavy Weapons"

Guy 1: Hey Guy!
Guy 2: Howdy.
Guy 1: I just got this wicked Shiawase Blazer; you should check this bad boy out.
Guy 2: Is that like a fancy jacket or something?
Guy 1: No man, it's a gun.
Guy 2: Ok, so what's so awesome about this gun?
Guy 1: It shoots FIRE!
Guy 2: I can shoot fire with my gun too. It just seems like a waste of bullets.
Guy 1: Nooooo! It doesn't shoot bullets into fires - The fire comes out of the gun and burns people.
Guy 2: Ya lost me.
Guy 1: Ok, so you know how a gun has a barrel and a trigger?
Guy 2: Yeah..
Guy 1: And you point the barrel at someone and pull the trigger?
Guy 2: Yeah...
Guy 1: And then bullets come out of the gun and hit the guy?
Guy 2: I know how guns work..
Guy 1: Okay okay.. So a flamethrower has a barrel and a trigger.
Guy 2: Right..
Guy 1: And you point the barrel at someone and pull the trigger.
Guy 2: Okay..
Guy 1: And then "fire" comes out of the gun and hits the guy.
Guy 2: So what. My gun fires just fine.
Guy 1: Nooo, not just gunfire! this gun fires FIRE.
Guy 2: Ya lost me.

30 minutes later:
Guy 1: So you see, it shoots out a stream of gel-ified gasoline.
Guy 2: Like a full auto burst of gel or capusle rounds?
Guy 1: No, like water from a hose.
Guy 2: But then doesn't the water mess up the bullets?
Guy 1: Perhaps a demonstration is in order.
Guy 2: Whoa, don't point that thing at me; I don't wanna get shot!
Guy 1: There's no bullets in this thing.
Guy 2: Oh, okay..
Guy 1: Yeah. Just hold still, and.. I promise, no bullets.

TL;DR = Incompetent implies a deficiency, like autism. It puts an active skill into the realm of incomprehensible for a character. I wouldn't prohibit any player from taking such a flaw, but, like always, I would expect him to understand that this isn't just an entry on a spread sheet, it is a facet of a personality. It should be accounted for and role-played. And yeah, I know flamethrowers aren't considered heavy weapons. It's just funnier that way. "It's like a rifle but with bigger bullets," is just sad.

[3278]

When you want to capture PCs, you need opposition that is almost, but not quite, lethal. To weak and the PCs will kill it. Too strong and the PCs will die.

Either I'm not understanding something, or we're running the game very differently. If your goal is to capture the PCs - your goal as GM, and the security guards' goal as opposition - then why would that opposition be even remotely close to lethal? Shadowrun possesses a vast array of non-lethal weapons, many of them more effective than their lethal counterparts, and none of which require railroading to make use of. That's utterly purposeful on the parts of the designers, who as far as I can tell wanted to reward players for not playing mass-murderers, and wanted to give the characters second chances: instead of getting killed constantly, they can get captured, and try to effect escape.

If you can't capture a group of PCs without railroading them, revisit the sourcebooks, or start a thread here asking for suggestions. It's not only not impossible, not only not difficult, it's often easier than killing them would be.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not trying to say an uncreative character can't fast talk if he's got con skill. Dice are dice. What I'm suggesting is that artisan covers all creative disciplines, from writing to sculpting to music, and Incompetence suggests that a person is fundamentally flawed such that no amount of instruction or practice can ever allow them to do this thing. So, the player has chosen to play a character who couldn't tell a story to save his life. Someone who is so artistically, well, incompetent, that he couldn't tell you whether Transformers 2 was better than The Godfather. (Hell, I bet we all know someone like that.) Anyway, I expect a character like that to act a certain way, and if he acts contrary, he is forfeiting karma. That's why it's a disadvantage.
And, really, what is the difference between telling a good story and coming up with a good plan? Good ideas, that's another matter, but plans are fiction in form and, usually, function.

I have to disagree with you here...

Art is ART not Engineering or Physics or Tactics... it is ART... so a character that is incompetent in the ARTISAN skill is just that... he can't hold a note, has two left feet for ballet, has no concept of scupture or how to lay paint on canvas, etc... it has nothing whatsoever to do with disciplines or other "artistic" applications that fall outside of the ARTISAN Skill (such as Engineering Design, or Architecture, etc.)... Having an artistic bent will definitely help here, but since it is a completely different skill ion Shadowrun, it will not hurt to have an incompetence in the Artisan Skill...

Just Saying...

Keep the Faith

[Saint Sithney]

Having an artistic bent will definitely help here, but since it is a completely different skill in Shadowrun, it will not hurt to have an incompetence in the Artisan Skill...

Just Saying...

Keep the Faith

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that I would not award optional karma points to a player who took that flaw and then operates in a manner not in keeping with how I envision a character utterly incapable of and uninterested in artistic expression. See, I consider creative writing to be a form of artistry, therefore it follows that I would expect such a character to have a limited capacity for creative articulation. Of course I would let the person making the character sheet know how I see such a flaw impacting his personality during character design, but that difficulty in roleplaying is the disadvantage I see here. It is a limitation on how a character can express himself and still remain "in character." In fact, staying in character is the real difficulty imposed by all incompetence flaws. Because "not expecting to ever have to do something" is not the same as "totally incapable of doing something no matter how hard or how long you try to learn it."

So sure, a character with this flaw can take leadership and learn tactics, or take con and learn to fleece people. But I expect his tactics to be efficient ones that sound like they came from a book, and I expect his lies to be formulated tropes specifically chosen to be most suitable for his mark.

For example, if he was planning to infiltrate a building, I'd expect such a character to show up at the front door wearing a guard uniform and spouting the tired old "I'm new here" shtick. It's the most appropriate plan for a guy carrying a gun into a building. If instead he decides to cause a back up in their sewer lines and come dressed up like a repair worker while everyone in the building is forced to wear gas masks, then that's starting to get clever. He had better phrase his suggestions in such a way as to show that this is some time tested technique employed by the CIA since the days of Oceans 11. or whatever.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that I would not award optional karma points to a player who took that flaw and then operates in a manner not in keeping with how I envision a character utterly incapable of and uninterested in artistic expression. See, I consider creative writing to be a form of artistry, therefore it follows that I would expect such a character to have a limited capacity for creative articulation. Of course I would let the person making the character sheet know how I see such a flaw impacting his personality during character design, but that difficulty in roleplaying is the disadvantage I see here. It is a limitation on how a character can express himself and still remain "in character." In fact, staying in character is the real difficulty imposed by all incompetence flaws. Because "not expecting to ever have to do something" is not the same as "totally incapable of doing something no matter how hard or how long you try to learn it."

To Each his own I guess... I just think that it is a bit of a leap to say that since I am not artistically inclined that I cannot come up with a good plan for infiltrating a facility... There is a disconnect here that I am painfully aware of, and I am confused as to why you don't see it... I have seen some brilliant Electrical Engineers that could not sing their way out of a paperbox...

Maybe you do, and it works for you, but wow...

Keep the Faith

[Dakka Dakka]

I'm not trying to say an uncreative character can't fast talk if he's got con skill. Dice are dice. What I'm suggesting is that artisan covers all creative disciplines, from writing to sculpting to music, and Incompetence suggests that a person is fundamentally flawed such that no amount of instruction or practice can ever allow them to do this thing.

Agreed.

So, the player has chosen to play a character who couldn't tell a story to save his life.

I guess we differ on the definition of telling a story. The artistically incompetent character could give a more ore less accurate (a function of perception and memory) account of what happened, but he could not weave a story that captivates an audience/the readers.

Someone who is so artistically, well, incompetent, that he couldn't tell you whether Transformers 2 was better than The Godfather. (Hell, I bet we all know someone like that.) Anyway, I expect a character like that to act a certain way, and if he acts contrary, he is forfeiting karma. That's why it's a disadvantage.

I also agree with that.

And, really, what is the difference between telling a good story and coming up with a good plan? Good ideas, that's another matter, but plans are fiction in form and, usually, function.

Ideas and plans based on those ideas are determined by the capability to think logically, so the artistically inept is at no particular disadvantage. The presentation of such ideas and plans however would be lacking. Also convincing others of this plan shouldn't be much of a problem if the character has the appropriate social skills.

I will now preform for you a play entitled "Why I would never allow a player to take Incompetence: Heavy Weapons"

[snip]comedy about heavy weapons.[/snip]

I LOLed. Kinda reminds me of that sketch with George W. Bush and Condoleeza rice about Mr. Hu and Mr. Arafat

TL;DR = Incompetent implies a deficiency, like autism. It puts an active skill into the realm of incomprehensible for a character.

I know. That's what I don't like bout the flaw. I would have preferred something along the lines of "not good at a certain skill no matter how hard he tries". Maybe a negative dice pool modifier or a higher cost to increase the skill or both. BTW what does TL;DR = mean?

I wouldn't prohibit any player from taking such a flaw, but, like always, I would expect him to understand that this isn't just an entry on a spread sheet, it is a facet of a personality. It should be accounted for and role-played.

When and if it comes up it should be somehow roleplayed. Whether that's telling everyone how stupid a game of pictionary is or conveniently being absent from the karaoke bar or confessing that one is unable to perform that feat it does not matter.

[Saint Sithney]

I have seen some brilliant Electrical Engineers that could not sing their way out of a paperbox...

I don't see how that means that they are completely incapable of comprehending the process of artistic expression. Just because they can't sing doesn't mean they'll never whittle or play "Mary had a Little Lamb" or write Star Trek erotic fanfiction. And it certainly doesn't mean they couldn't if they tried. The presence of art is requisite to all genius. But that's not to say you can't have logic, efficiency and skill without it.

edt:
TL;DR means "Too Long; Didn't Read" It's the typical response to the WALL O TEXT, and, when included in a long post, is used to denote the short version/core argument.

[Traul]

Star Trek erotic fanfiction

Do you know Google has 133 000 results for this?
/* shudder */

[Whipstitch]

And yeah, I agree that the problem with the incompetence flaw largely has to do with the way it's worded and described. Frankly, I don't see why it should have EVER included the concept of ignorance. After all, Knowledge Skills are not candidates for the flaw, only Active skills. Having a character who simply cannot succeed at a roll for whatever reason isn't really that hard to fathom provided that the GM and players are given enough wiggle room to play it off however they like. For example, an Incompetent: Etiquette character blowing the meet by pissing off the Oyabun by being as shmuck is one thing, but saying that he wouldn't really even understand why someone would at least make an effort is another thing entirely.

"The presence of art is requisite to all genius."

Don't agree here. At all.

[Nimblegrund]

That might be how it works in the World of Darkness...what I was pointing out is on pg 269 of SR4a, where they explain the extra Karma awards suggested for Good Roleplaying & Humor and Drama. Marty could have earned a point for either when those situations come up, so there are some overlaps in the SR4/WoD rules.

The part of the WoD ruleset that terrifies me is "endangered himself and his mission to take his revenge" being rewarded. The last thing I want to do is get my players looking for ways to wreck the game because it's worth points.

SR's Karma system and WOD's XP system pretty much both work the same way. Under the WOD system, you would get a point of xp for roleplaying in addition to your flaw xp as well, if your flaw involved roleplaying.

It sounds chaotic, but it honestly works pretty well. As much as they want that extra point of Karma at the end of the session, they ALSO want to survive to the end of the session. Players don't like to fail. They like to be challenged, they like to struggle against the odds (even if that struggle is against themselves), but they don't like to fail. So any roleplaying of the flaw is going to be tempered by that. Plus GM's obviously have a certain degree of control over the flaws as well. If a character goes into epileptic seizures whenever he sees bright lights, he isn't going to be constantly throwing flash grenades into his face unless he A) thinks the character can overcome the flaw and still succeed, or B) he is a total jerk and wants to see the PC's suffer, in which case you have greater issues in the game.

One way to look at it is that these are called "flaws" for a reason. Flaws are meant to be punished. If they don't prove to be any sort of detriment at all to the character, then it wasn't really a flaw, now was it? This way a flaw is only worth the amount it hinders you; no more, no less.

[3278]

And, really, what is the difference between telling a good story and coming up with a good plan?

The lateralization of brain function? A good plan may well be "creative," in the sense that it's projecting reality into possibility, but it requires a completely different sort of brain function than artistic expression. I would certainly rule in my own game that an inability in artistic expression would have no effect on linear reasoning.

[Cthulhudreams]

As for the reasons to use captured Runners as opposed to simply hiring someone else, well firstly we've been told time and time again that there aren't really all that many "real" Runners, secondly it is probably cheaper since the Runner's freedom is part of the payment, and thirdly the Runners aren't really in a position to say no so the corp can get them to do things that they wouldn't normally be willing to partake in, after "suitable" measures to ensure that they stay on task are taken of course.

Yeah, the most suitable measure is installing a personafix that removes the character from use as a PC. Again, I'm still confused why you have corporations capture people then let them go in a world that has actual mind control, then say I'm gamist. Getting captured = GG for PCs.

Sorry, doesn't stack up.

Shadowrun possesses a vast array of non-lethal weapons, many of them more effective than their lethal counterparts, and none of which require railroading to make use of.

We totally are, if my PCs are in situations where they cannot 'hide in a crowd' they use respirators and chem seals routinely, making the squirt gun and gas routes almost obslete - part of the reason they do is that CS gas is routinely used by them to deny the area! Stick and shock can definately work but it's often hard to engage PCs in a gun fight - mine will run away if opposition that can actually hurt them turns up, and are typically careful to make sure they can scamper before it does.

Then the second part is - Shadowrun has a variety of ultra sophsticated restraints. You can dump all prisoners in VR and remove their actual muscle control. I'm not sure how people can even realistically escape.

n a classless free form system such as Shadowrun yeah I have no problem whatsoever about someone being worth less Karma then someone else, after all I doubt you have a problem with someone playing a 400 Buildpoint character while everyone else plays a character ranging from 405-435 Buildpoints because they choose to take flaws.

Actually I do, it's a major power disparity. I encourage people to take 35 points of flaws, and if they don't feel there are ones suitable for the concept, I'll try and work something out. I tend not to worry to much though as I discount skills so people's core areas run into caps before they run out of points, and if the differences are not in the characters primary 'shtick' I don't mind.

I also have BP advancement when I run for the same reason, to prevent characters at different power levels. Keep everyone in a niche and on par is important when telling a co-operative story to ensure spotlight time can be evenly chopped up.

[Nimblegrund]

Actually I do, it's a major power disparity. I encourage people to take 35 points of flaws, and if they don't feel there are ones suitable for the concept, I'll try and work something out. I tend not to worry to much though as I discount skills so people's core areas run into caps before they run out of points, and if the differences are not in the characters primary 'shtick' I don't mind.

I also have BP advancement when I run for the same reason, to prevent characters at different power levels. Keep everyone in a niche and on par is important when telling a co-operative story to ensure spotlight time can be evenly chopped up.

If it were me, I would sidestep the whole issue by just giving them the 35 BP carte blanche, and then forbid the flaws entirely. If they are just going to take nannerpuss flaws, why bother?

[toturi]

Actually I do, it's a major power disparity. I encourage people to take 35 points of flaws, and if they don't feel there are ones suitable for the concept, I'll try and work something out. I tend not to worry to much though as I discount skills so people's core areas run into caps before they run out of points, and if the differences are not in the characters primary 'shtick' I don't mind.

While I also encourage my players to take as much Negative Qualities as their characters' concepts can take, it is up to my players whether they do so. I point out certain Qualities like Day Job or Sensitive System and allow them to make their choices. But I do point out that they probably won't be able to get away 100% scot-free.

[Cthulhudreams]

I don;t let people take day job, it just interfers with story telling pointlessly.

If it were me, I would sidestep the whole issue by just giving them the 35 BP carte blanche, and then forbid the flaws entirely. If they are just going to take nannerpuss flaws, why bother?

It makes people write a backstory to explain who is hunting them and why they were hung out to dry by the Yakuza. Suddenly Jimmy the hacker because Jimmy the ex-Yakuza assassination squad member who was kicked out because it came to light his mother is a korean prostitute. For which they get 35 BP. It keeps the power gamers and the more roleplay focused games happy and gives the GM some stuff to work with.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It makes people write a backstory to explain who is hunting them and why they were hung out to dry by the Yakuza. Suddenly Jimmy the hacker because Jimmy the ex-Yakuza assassination squad member who was kicked out because it came to light his mother is a korean prostitute. For which they get 35 BP. It keeps the power gamers and the more roleplay focused games happy and gives the GM some stuff to work with.

This cannot be stressed enough... Flaws shouls give your GM something to work with from your backstory...Plot hooks abound within the Negative Qualities...

Keep the Faith