[X] My Assistant

[Cheshyr]

Guy 1: Yeah. Just hold still, and.. I promise, no bullets.

I think this story probably the most productive thing this thread has generated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[3278]

Shadowrun possesses a vast array of non-lethal weapons, many of them more effective than their lethal counterparts, and none of which require railroading to make use of.

We totally are, if my PCs are in situations where they cannot 'hide in a crowd' they use respirators and chem seals routinely, making the squirt gun and gas routes almost obslete - part of the reason they do is that CS gas is routinely used by them to deny the area! Stick and shock can definately work but it's often hard to engage PCs in a gun fight - mine will run away if opposition that can actually hurt them turns up, and are typically careful to make sure they can scamper before it does.

And stun spells? Gel rounds? How are the PCs scampering if the opposition controls the location - which one presumes they would, given that it's their ground to defend?

Look, I'm not saying PCs stand no chance against anyone who wants to capture them. I'm also not saying PCs can never be captured without the GM railroading them, as you are. I'm saying that it's perfectly reasonable for security guards to stand a good chance of capturing PCs with the proper training, equipment, and tactics. Your statement that PCs simply cannot ever be captured without railroading is simply and plainly false, unless you are running security guards and other opposition as ill-equipped, ill-trained morons without proper support and backup, in which case...what's the challenge of the run? If they can't possibly be knocked unconscious or captured, it stands to reason they can't possibly be killed, either, since the non-lethal measures work just as well if not better than the lethal ones; is there simply no reasonable opposition in your game?

If there isn't, that's perfectly valid, but you're running a game very different from the games others are running, and that should be made clear.

CorpSec - the sourcebook, that is - made an excellent point: the hard part about designing security in Shadowrun is not constantly killing or capturing the PCs. When I'm GMing, I have to moderate my possibilities with budget constraints and human flaws just to keep from having every hallway become a possible killing ground.

Then the second part is - Shadowrun has a variety of ultra sophsticated restraints. You can dump all prisoners in VR and remove their actual muscle control. I'm not sure how people can even realistically escape.

That's a very good point. Assuming that particular location has that equipment - not unreasonable in many, if not most, cases - I don't know how the PCs escape without outside assistance, either, although if it came up, I suspect I'd make an adventure out of it, in which the players slowly begin to realize they're being held in a virtual prison, and work to mentally free themselves. It probably wouldn't be in accord with the rules, but I bet my players would have fun.

I don;t let people take day job, it just interfers with story telling pointlessly.

You don't feel it can add more depth and possibility to the character's backstory and ongoing plots regarding that character? Strange.

[Whipstitch]

It can, but whether that NERPS brings enough flavor to the campaign to be worth the bother is another matter. For the most part, I think it tends to be more trouble than it's worth. If one of my ideas for the next run is sending the PCs into the NAN territories to poach a rare and protected Awakened critter for material components, I don't really want to deal with the fact that the Samurai has to be back by Friday night so he can boot unruly patrons from the local dive for 250 nuyen a weekend. I've made the quality work out OK in the past, but overall it's hard to keep a mundane 5 bp job flaw operating as an interesting plot hook AND mild inconvenience. Any roleplaying benefit you can think of can be just as easily established by asking your runners to explain what they like to do in their free time besides "practice."

[Cheshyr]

In exploring the negative qualities, I'm noticing patterns in their practical application. I'm going to suggest that they fall in specific categories:

- Direct Impact
- Decision Limitations
- Development Limitations
- Backstory Hooks

Direct Impact:
These flaws tend to be hard dice pool modifications for a given situation. Examples like Astral Beacon, Bad Luck, Gremlins, and Low Pain Tolerance. Outside of these specific situations, they really have no impact on the game. The player knows exactly where and how it's going to hurt, and can actively work to mitigate the damage. Likewise, the GM can easily use these flaws to adjust the difficulty of an encounter.

Decision Limitations:
These tend to be a little trickier. It is entirely possible that these flaws never come up in gameplay. Instead, they impose boundries on the characters actions, and inflict penalties if the character chooses to cross them. Examples include Aspected Magician and Sensitive System. The player generally has to decide if and when to self-inflict these penalties. The GM doesn't really have control over these flaws, but can use gear rewards and circumstances to tempt the player into a difficult decision.

Development Limitations:
These tend to be much harder limits on the character. Examples would be Incompetence, Borrowed Time, Pacifist, and Illiterate. Again, the player has the majority of the control with regards to impact, but the GM doesn't have to expend much effort for these flaws to come into play either.

Backstory Hooks:
Not surprisingly, this category contains the largest number and broadest spread of flaws. Day Job, Enemy, SINner, Records on File, Wanted... the list goes on. I'd also put the majority of the addictions in this category. These are meaningful for both background and plot hooks. The player can use this to give their character a realistic background, while the GM has a variety of plot hooks available to engage the player.

----
My point in categorizing this is so GMs can understand what the player is offering, and adjust the story to take advantage of them appropriately. Likewise, the player can use their flaws as a way to indicate to the GM what type of game they want to play, and how much involvement they want from the GM in terms of character development. It's almost an implicit form of communication between the group members.

Just my thoughts.

[Ravor]

Cthulhudreams because I don't believe that the "mind control" that exists in the Sixth World is really all that valid for use against Runners if you want them to still be able to do their jobs. P-Fixes aren't really effective if you want your asset to be able to think on his feet and the examples that I recall of Psych-IC involve either destorying the Decker's ability to deck or merely grant some border case mental change ( Only buying Big A's products is an example I remember reading somewhere. ) but I don't think that the corps can do both.

As for the rest about power levels and such, meh, I can't say much other than I totally and completely disagree in every way possible and yes I consider you to be a gamist on these merits alone even if we agreed on everything else.

[Saint Sithney]

Here's an example of a day job gone right:
I have a player who can't make all the games all the time. He can make most of the games most of the time though, so it's all good. But, to accommodate for the fact that he's going to be irregularly absent we decided that we'd build a character who is sometimes just not there. So, playing up his strong points, we decided to make a Metasapient AI character with a regular Day Job. The character's concept is that it is a part of the Internet Movie Database that has gained sentience. It has been sentient for less than two years, but, in that time, it has managed to watch over 160 years of film, TV, trid and sim. As such, it has a completely warped view of how reality works, (since it's only seen 18 months of actual real life in comparison to scads of movies and shows,) and consequently follows around the Runner team since they represent the most familiar portrayal of reality as he understands it. So, he swarms them with scads of Fly-Spys and provides overwatch in the form of Stage Direction. Also, he does things like interfering with drones and guards to make sure none of the "main characters" gets shot until at least halfway through the 2nd act, or deciding that the run isn't getting exciting enough and calling the cops for a good chase scene. Yeah, thoroughly annoying but useful. And when he can't make it to a session (or it's between certain hours,) then the AI is just recompiling or at its day job, administering chatrooms and such for the IMDB. Works out pretty alright.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It can, but whether that NERPS brings enough flavor to the campaign to be worth the bother is another matter. For the most part, I think it tends to be more trouble than it's worth. If one of my ideas for the next run is sending the PCs into the NAN territories to poach a rare and protected Awakened critter for material components, I don't really want to deal with the fact that the Samurai has to be back by Friday night so he can boot unruly patrons from the local dive for 250 nuyen a weekend. I've made the quality work out OK in the past, but overall it's hard to keep a mundane 5 bp job flaw operating as an interesting plot hook AND mild inconvenience. Any roleplaying benefit you can think of can be just as easily established by asking your runners to explain what they like to do in their free time besides "practice."

There is always vacation time and sick leave to utilize...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[MikeKozar]

So, playing up his strong points, we decided to make a Metasapient AI character with a regular Day Job. The character's concept is that it is a part of the Internet Movie Database that has gained sentience. It has been sentient for less than two years, but, in that time, it has managed to watch over 160 years of film, TV, trid and sim. As such, it has a completely warped view of how reality works, (since it's only seen 18 months of actual real life in comparison to scads of movies and shows,) and consequently follows around the Runner team since they represent the most familiar portrayal of reality as he understands it

That is bloody ingenious.

[Cthulhudreams]

That's a very good point. Assuming that particular location has that equipment - not unreasonable in many, if not most, cases - I don't know how the PCs escape without outside assistance, either, although if it came up, I suspect I'd make an adventure out of it, in which the players slowly begin to realize they're being held in a virtual prison, and work to mentally free themselves. It probably wouldn't be in accord with the rules, but I bet my players would have fun.

You don't feel it can add more depth and possibility to the character's backstory and ongoing plots regarding that character? Strange.

Every single security guard (hell, every single person) has the technology on his belt. It is more common than handcuffs! You just duct tape your commlink and trodes to them instead of you, dial in a sim module via the matrix if you don't have one handy and then you're done. You then control it via AR.

It's universally available and would always be used in the restraint of perps.

I don't know how the PCs escape without outside assistance, either, although if it came up, I suspect I'd make an adventure out of it, in which the players slowly begin to realize they're being held in a virtual prison, and work to mentally free themselves. It probably wouldn't be in accord with the rules, but I bet my players would have fun.

While this can be fun, it is also the railroading I was refering to before. A linear shooter can be fun as long as every set piece isn't samey - you just have to know what you're doing up front.

CorpSec - the sourcebook, that is - made an excellent point: the hard part about designing security in Shadowrun is not constantly killing or capturing the PCs. When I'm GMing, I have to moderate my possibilities with budget constraints and human flaws just to keep from having every hallway become a possible killing ground.

Yeah, people seriously underestimate how expensive it is to do something in this space. Professionally I've done some work here - an armed checkpoint costs ~$1.5 million to 2 million to run a year. Seeing as armed guards are core to the shadow-run experience, if running against corporate targets runners have to go at stuff that is worth spending atleast 20 million a year on in ongoing costs alone, plus capital expenditure.

that means you're talking an onsite security force of 12 including atleast 1 mage plus significant drone support. The mage won't be very good though - he'll have been recruited from the barrens and won't be top shelf, because top shelf mages run against this stuff or work for corporations in other rules like using Movement on small planes,.

Which is why stunball isn't much of a threat to PCs - they tend to have a very good mage with high counterspelling.

The flip side is this means that if the runners are caught, they can get killed very quickly. On site security probably has 30+ LMGs between them and the drones. It means having plan that doens't get you seen is vital.




@Saint: Cool character. Exactly what Day job adds to that concept I don't understand.

[Paul]

I'd love to see how you break down your costs CD. I work in Law Enforcement, and I agree sometimes people forget what costs are out there.

[Whipstitch]

There is always vacation time and sick leave to utilize...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Right. So I should just let him off the hook for his day job with the idea of coming up with some other crap I'm not really interested in roleplaying coming up later, like having to find someone to cover his shift? I mean, this is just a whole load of crap I couldn't possibly care any less about as a GM and in exchange he gets 5 bps and some nuyen? Nuh-uh.

As for the AI character with a Day Job, that's kind of the exception that proves the rule. The flaw works best when you're fine with a character sitting out session time, which is pretty harsh in a situation in which the player can attend regularly. The only times I've felt comfortable with the day job flaw otherwise is when a character misses out on say, software coding time because of it and then I handle the rest of it with a hand wave.

[Paul]

Sounds like a player GM disconnect to me. If you haven't already, talk to your player Whipstitch. Works every time!

[Whipstitch]

I did literally years ago. I don't allow the flaw anymore. It's a poster child "not appropriate for all groups" flaw, which is why I find it kind of funny when disapproval of it is routinely dismissed as a failure of imagination.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'd love to see how you break down your costs CD. I work in Law Enforcement, and I agree sometimes people forget what costs are out there.

You'd have to pay me if you wanted it done properly, but it boils down to:

A) Qho is coming at me? In shadowrun, I have 4 threats: shadowrunners/pro teams, gangers, organised crime and terrorists (e.g. eco terrorists).

B) What is the level of the threat? This breaks down into multiple parts

i) What weapons are people coming at me with? In SR, you can expect assault rifles, shotguns and SMGs from the pros, gangers and crims (which is an amazing threat level, most people really are not prepared for threats with that sort of lethality) suicide bombers, car bombs and other explosives from the terrorists as well as magical attacks.

ii) What level of professionalism can I expect? A very high one is certainly possible - teams of professional killers and B&E artists are out there and coming for me!

iii) How likely is the threat? Very high, gangers are a constant threat (the halloweeners have been throwing flaming trashcans at corporate premises for years), shadowrunners are a feature and terrorists repeatedly make very high profile attacks against sensative targets

iv) What is my chance of having forewarning - 0, which is a major issue. It's virtually impossible for a corporate security guard to have any advance knowledge of an attack because the attackers are very organised and very sophisticated. These guys are more like the IRA than islamic terrorists, except they are much more likely to use lethal force.

The final part is impact - what do I lose? But that's out of scope here. As e can see though it's a high threat enviroment.

Therefore an armed checkpoint needs 3 guys and probably more. 3 is enough for the IRA - but we're talking even more dangerous people out there.

The first guy stands out the front and phyiscally checks people's passes etc. He will die if anyone attacks the checkpoint because he's almost impossible to defend and anyone coming at him is going to get the drop on him with a rifle. He'll be in some sort of covered position to ensure that the attackers come forward to get him.

He will be 'supported' by two guys further back in cover to kill whoever shoots the first guy (this is, incidentally, why shadow runners don't get captured - these guys will just cut loose with assault rifles at the first opportunity, and because they are responding to someone using lethal force on another team member, they won't cock around. They don't even know who is attacking them. It might be ecoterrorists who are planning to use biological or chemical weapons within the compound. Shoot to kill orders will be universal.) They will ideally in a raised position so they have decent LoS over the area.

You need more than three shifts, because it is unrealistic to expect these guys to just stare into the distance and then be ready when someone comes out of nowhere. They need to be rotated regularly in and out to other duties such as patrolling. The ratio of staff needed to provide a man works out at something between 5 and 7 to one. Indirect costs of employment are approximately twice salaries. This means that you're paying 42 salaries for just one checkpoint. (works out in shadowrun at like 2-2.5 million Nuyen per checkpoint per year)

[Paul]

I did literally years ago. I don't allow the flaw anymore. It's a poster child "not appropriate for all groups" flaw, which is why I find it kind of funny when disapproval of it is routinely dismissed as a failure of imagination.

As long as you're having fun you're doing it right. I don't think knowing what your limits are is a lack of imagination.

You'd have to pay me if you wanted it done properly...

Well I can't do that, but I'll settle for what you're giving away! It's interesting to see some of the very same concerns I deal with everyday.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah none of this stuff is particularly hard. The biggest problem I have is that people somehow feel that building a fence makes things more secure. It's like what everyone thinks security should look like - a fence.

But then the supporting infrastructure to actually make a fence mean something (CCTV, patrols, response capability) is just not considered.

The ball game is a bit different with LEO vs National Security. Law enforcement officers want to ask people to surrender and stuff, but that's not a consideration/option at the national security side and a bit of an issue that you have to think about how people have to response. Additionally, in Australia at least a member of the military in the execution of his duty is exempt from state law (including, amongst other things the Crimes Act) which gives you much more flexibility on what you can do!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah none of this stuff is particularly hard. The biggest problem I have is that people somehow feel that building a fence makes things more secure. It's like what everyone thinks security should look like - a fence.

But then the supporting infrastructure to actually make a fence mean something (CCTV, patrols, response capability) is just not considered.

The ball game is a bit different with LEO vs National Security. Law enforcement officers want to ask people to surrender and stuff, but that's not a consideration/option at the national security side and a bit of an issue that you have to think about how people have to response. Additionally, in Australia at least a member of the military in the execution of his duty is exempt from state law (including, amongst other things the Crimes Act) which gives you much more flexibility on what you can do!

Must be nice... American Military are subject not only to Military Law, but the Laws where they are stationed if off base... makes things very interesting

Keep the Faith

[Paul]

I see no reason why Use of Force policies wouldn't exist in 207x. Nonlethal force is a lot easier to defend in court, and not to mention a living captured opponent is easier to interrogate than a dead guy.

[Glyph]

In exploring the negative qualities, I'm noticing patterns in their practical application. I'm going to suggest that they fall in specific categories:

- Direct Impact
- Decision Limitations
- Development Limitations
- Backstory Hooks

I like the categories, although I think most of the first three can also be Backstory Hooks, if the player actually incorporates them into his background and roleplays their effects. One of my characters, Null from the Witch Hunt game, had Incompetence: Leadership and it profoundly affected how I played the character.

[cndblank]

[quote name='MikeKozar' date='Oct 20 2009, 10:01 PM' post='857770'
I think all the arguments about game mechanics, greedy players and evil GMs are kind of secondary to these three main issues: Are some of the flaws unwelcome in some games, does the GM get to make that call, and should the players expect the GM to point it out when they make a mistake? I say yes to all three. That said, all that needs to happen here is for the GM to pull the player aside (during the point in character creation set aside for exactly this) and come to an agreement.
[/quote]

I agree with all three.

Flaws/Negative Quantities should help define the character and let the GM know what problems the player wants the character to experience.

And if the GM thinks a flaw will not fit then the player should listen or come up with a workable variation.

But the GM needs to be clear up front as to what type of problems a character's negative quantities will bring them.

That way the the Player and the GM will have a clear understanding on what events should happen to the character.

[cndblank]

I see no reason why Use of Force policies wouldn't exist in 207x. Nonlethal force is a lot easier to defend in court, and not to mention a living captured opponent is easier to interrogate than a dead guy.

Well AAA Corps have extraterritorial, but yes does provide more options. Especially if the runners did some thing public.

For one thing unless you interrogate the runners you have no idea who is behind them.

Even if it was just a "Johnson", you can tell a lot by how much they were being paid, what mission parameters they had, and how much information they were provided on the target.

On the other hand on some really black research sites where no one knows the runners are there, they would just bury the bodies.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well AAA Corps have extraterritorial, but yes does provide more options. Especially if the runners did some thing public.

For one thing unless you interrogate the runners you have no idea who is behind them.

Even if it was just a "Johnson", you can tell a lot by how much they were being paid, what mission parameters they had, and how much information they were provided on the target.

On the other hand on some really black research sites where no one knows the runners are there, they would just bury the bodies.

This is indeed the most likely scenario, Yes...

Keep the Faith

[Saint Sithney]

@Saint: Cool character. Exactly what Day job adds to that concept I don't understand.

Well, it establishes the character as unreliable and explains his sudden absences. I mean, when you're a computer program and it's time to go to work, you don't get to show up late or get some one to cover your shift. Middle of the run or not, he's just gone. His agents are still active though, so it's not a total washout. I just couldn't think of another way to work the player in which would accommodate that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

I see no reason why Use of Force policies wouldn't exist in 207x. Nonlethal force is a lot easier to defend in court, and not to mention a living captured opponent is easier to interrogate than a dead guy.

You don't actually have to defend yourself in Court if you are Renraku. Any facility that is worthy of armed guards will be extraterritorial, and at that point YOU ARE THE LAW judge Dread style.

Secondly the threat enviroment is totally different in SR4. The guy who're trying to arrest seriously has an AK47 and might have explosives and chemical weapons. At that point you're just going to shoot him. The arrest handbook is just not a concern when the other guy is probably a terrorist, and is atleast a violent professional killer. It's a bit of a mental state shift for an LEO profressional, but again, the threat enviroment (and your enviroment!) is much closer to what the British were doing vs the IRA. If someone goes at the guy out the front, you try and kill them as quickly and efficently as possible, because you want to win the fight.

Maybe this is a better way of looking at it: The LEO response is cordon and contain, but the threats we're talking in SR are much more dangerous than what you'd expect for a Cordon and contain response (well, atleast the bits of it with a 20 million nuyen defence budget), that it's going to be more like the response to spree killers - first responders go in and try and 'win' by killing and incapaciating the perps.

American Military are subject not only to Military Law, but the Laws where they are stationed if off base... makes things very interesting

So are Australian - the execution of their duties part is the relevant component, and indeed US military personnel are immune to everything.

Well, it establishes the character as unreliable and explains his sudden absences. I mean, when you're a computer program and it's time to go to work, you don't get to show up late or get some one to cover your shift. Middle of the run or not, he's just gone. His agents are still active though, so it's not a total washout. I just couldn't think of another way to work the player in which would accommodate that. twirl.gif

Again, not sure why you need the day job flaw for that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So are Australian - the execution of their duties part is the relevant component, and indeed US military personnel are immune to everything.

Not so sure about that... the My Lai Incident proved that beyond a doubt... Although there was only one conviction, 26 others were put on trial for the atrocity perpetrated...

There are many other examples of Military Personnel who are tried for their crimes... just look at Abu Gharib for a relatively recent example...

Keep the Faith