[X] My Assistant

[3278]

However, I assumed that was just as crazy as being a shadowrunner - being in that it is the same thing being a professional criminal.

Well, I probably think being a professional criminal is a lot less crazy than you do, so we'll chalk that up to different life experiences, but it's been my experience that underclasses find ways to eat, cracks in the system that allow them to continue to survive, even under desperate conditions. This gets much easier when the underclass exists within the same general physical location as a highly successful society. I think the statistics for the number of SINless existing in Shadowrun imply that they must be surviving somehow.

As for hiring illegals for manual labour or whatever, get a robot.

SR4 has made this a reasonably economical choice, given that for 5 months of Squatter lifestyle, you can buy a Manservant-3 to do the same work, and with a Pilot of 3, to boot. Yes, it's less inventive, but in many cases, this isn't significant. [Prior to SR4, this was not a particularly valid solution.] And yet I would think there would still be many, many situations in which a robot is simply less well-suited to the requirements of the position than a SINless metahuman. But your vision of Shadowrun differs strongly from any I've encountered previously, which troubles me very little now that I realize it.

[Ravor]

Naw, you can pay people far less than that, for "grunt" work I'd say a Squatter Lifestyle is a much better fit, and hell, remember that given the lifestyle rules you really only have to pay people half of whatever lifestyle they are meant to be placed at, a third if you figure that the corps want their employees to be in a neverending spiral of debt to the corp.

[Cthulhudreams]

Well, I probably think being a professional criminal is a lot less crazy than you do, so we'll chalk that up to different life experiences, but it's been my experience that underclasses find ways to eat, cracks in the system that allow them to continue to survive, even under desperate conditions. This gets much easier when the underclass exists within the same general physical location as a highly successful society. I think the statistics for the number of SINless existing in Shadowrun imply that they must be surviving somehow.

Well, obviously. It's not like all the people in Mogadishu just keel over and die. I'd characterize it as a pretty crazy place to live though.

As for the robot comment: see previous - there are obviously jobs in the services industry that you cannot automate, but yeah.

Naw, you can pay people far less than that, for "grunt" work I'd say a Squatter Lifestyle is a much better fit, and hell, remember that given the lifestyle rules you really only have to pay people half of whatever lifestyle they are meant to be placed at, a third if you figure that the corps want their employees to be in a neverending spiral of debt to the corp.

Fair enough I guess. At this point there are some very marginal edge case jobs that you can get people to do very badly (with 2/3rds the dice of a robot) for much the same money. Hurray!

Though at this point.. you run into the other soviet russia problem. Russian border guards were the best and brightest and paid and treated very well, because they could literally take 4 steps forward and go somewhere else. Now in the future there might not be many places to go, but if you pocket the iPhone prototype you're supposed to be guarding, I would imagine options open up.

[kzt]

Well, I probably think being a professional criminal is a lot less crazy than you do, so we'll chalk that up to different life experiences, but it's been my experience that underclasses find ways to eat, cracks in the system that allow them to continue to survive, even under desperate conditions. This gets much easier when the underclass exists within the same general physical location as a highly successful society. I think the statistics for the number of SINless existing in Shadowrun imply that they must be surviving somehow.

Living in the Robert Taylor Homes isn't the same thing as being sinless in the barrens. At least the SR is written up, a sinless person without a comlink and fake sin can't even walk down the street without a passing patrol drone noting that he isn't transmitting a SIN and possibly being stopped.

At best it's like living in a shantytown on the outskirts of Juarez and looking at the towers of El Paso. It's not impossible to get there, but it isn't going to be easy or free.

[3278]

...and hell, remember that given the lifestyle rules you really only have to pay people half of whatever lifestyle they are meant to be placed at, a third if you figure that the corps want their employees to be in a neverending spiral of debt to the corp.

Remembering I'm new to SR4, what do you mean by this?

Just noticed in the Lifestyle rules in SR4a that you can only buy one lifestyle. WTF?

[3278]

Well, obviously. It's not like all the people in Mogadishu just keel over and die. I'd characterize it as a pretty crazy place to live though.

Yes, indeed it is. I don't perceive the Barrens as being equal to Mogadishu, however. Partially this is a difference of play style, but also it's an issue of geography.

[Cthulhudreams]

See Kzt's point. The way they are written up, they are EXACTLY like Mogadishu right down to the random outbreaks of gunfire and Lonestar 'raids' where they just shoot up some houses, nor are you allowed to even go near an A zone without being arrested for the crime of not having any papers.

[Cain]

OK, CD, I see where you're getting your numbers from, but you're still doing the comparison wrong.

The ASVAB doesn't compare against the general civilian population. It scores where you stand in relation to other people who took the test. This is why it's an IQ test more than an aptitude test. Assuming a direct correlation between g and ASVAB scores, someone who is two SD below the mean on one IQ test is going to be two SD below the mean on another, with a margin for error. That means such people could easily get a passing score on the ASVAB.

Additionally, the ASVAB pretends to be an aptitude test. So, it includes things like assembling objects, which wouldn't necessarily be Logic-based. That could push the scores up for those with a low Logic score and scarce Knowledge skills.

So, I'm sorry, but your comparison is wrong. The ASVAB is normalized against the ASVAB, not the general population.

[Cthulhudreams]

The ASVAB doesn't compare against the general civilian population. It scores where you stand in relation to other people who took the test.

So, I'm sorry, but your comparison is wrong. The ASVAB is normalized against the ASVAB, not the general population.

This is not correct. The ASVAB is normalized against a sample of the general population between the ages of 17 & 24. The last re-norming included almost 12000 candidates in this age group drawn from the civilian population in 2004.

[3278]

At least the SR is written up, a sinless person without a comlink and fake sin can't even walk down the street without a passing patrol drone noting that he isn't transmitting a SIN and possibly being stopped.

Yeah, I have a difficult time buying that, from a practical perspective, but I agree the SR4 rules provide for this, implicitly and explicitly. That said, this depends strongly on which street you're walking on, much as it does today. Not every street has patrol drones, for one thing, and again, the fact that SINless exist in large numbers implies they're getting by somehow. If it's not by working illegally, how?

[3278]

See Kzt's point. The way they are written up, they are EXACTLY like Mogadishu right down to the random outbreaks of gunfire and Lonestar 'raids' where they just shoot up some houses...

Mogadishu is quite a lot worse than what's written up about the Barrens in Shadowrun. To be honest, I've lived in neighborhoods in America with random outbreaks of gunfire and police raids that amount to "just shoot[ing] up some houses."

...nor are you allowed to even go near an A zone without being arrested for the crime of not having any papers.

And A zones are the only places one could go to get money?

How do the SINless survive in your game?

[3278]

An explanation of ASVAB norming exists here, and is illuminating.

[edit: I may as well post the illuminating bit: "The current national norms for the ASVAB were implemented in 2004. A nationally representative sample consisting of about 6,000 American youths aged 18-23 was utilized in the creation of the norms. These youths were identified from a screening of over 90,000 housing units, as part of the Profile of American Youth 1997 (PAY97) study. In the summer and fall of 1997, the CAT-ASVAB was administered to study participants under standardized conditions. The performance of this reference group was then used to develop new norms for the ASVAB."]

[Ravor]

Basically whenever you fail to pay your lifestyle costs you roll a single die and as long as your roll is higher than the number of months you haven't paid nothing happens. The way I read the rules would work as follows.

Month 1: Missed Payment -- Have to roll 2+

Month 2: Missed Payment -- Have to roll 3+

Month 3: Make ONE Payment -- Everything resets

Month 4: Missed Payment -- Have to roll 2+


Of course, bad things happen when you miss a payment and roll badly your lifestyle is downgraded one level and you owe one payment that has to be made or else.

[3278]

Basically whenever you fail to pay your lifestyle costs you roll a single die and as long as your roll is higher than the number of months you haven't paid nothing happens. The way I read the rules would work as follows.

Month 1: Missed Payment -- Have to roll 2+

Month 2: Missed Payment -- Have to roll 3+

Month 3: Make ONE Payment -- Everything resets

Month 4: Missed Payment -- Have to roll 2+

My word. Shadowrun's economy would be completely untenable. And I'd love to complain, but all I can think is, "Hey, that's just like the housing bust we're in!" Funny.

Thanks for the assist!

[Ravor]

*chuckles* Aye, one of the reasons why I keep banging my head against the wall while screaming that the corps aren't "captilists" they are "fedual fiefs" at best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Mogadishu is quite a lot worse than what's written up about the Barrens in Shadowrun. To be honest, I've lived in neighborhoods in America with random outbreaks of gunfire and police raids that amount to "just shoot[ing] up some houses."

well, it's got warlords, drug problems and arms markets too, not sure what the difference is.

And A zones are the only places one could go to get money?

How do the SINless survive in your game?

Okay, large scale argiculture is really difficult in the 6th world, because if you try and herd some cattle, you'll eventually have calves that breath fire and/or turn people to stone, which is an issue for you the farmer.Which is why everything is made from soy. But as agriculture has many of the same problems, I just assume people grow stuff in vats. So most people exist eating vat food, which is actually pretty cheap.

Power sats are referenced in the books, and I have them as cannon - people steal power off the relatively prolific power sats. No-one notices/cares because there is overcapacity and no batteries.

Secondly, productivity will continue its march onwards. as a result, staples can be made pretty cheaply.

The CBD of most cities is the corporate concessions.

Then there is a huge belt of people who do the various engineering and technical jobs required to make mechanization work. IQs have been going up for quite some time, and by 2070, the average IQ of the UK will have moved to 125 or so from 100. Education will be extensive as anything less than 17 years of schooling can be replaced by drones, so most people will have masters degrees. This is the shiny happy future!

Outside of them is the C zones then the barrens. There is a very stark line of 'do you have a masters degree or not' People out here do not, and as such what these people do is have a services job, prostitution, arms dealing or deal drugs. You can scrape by on very low incomes. The barrens are Mogadishu. The cops don't go there... ever, and you can buy guns, cocaine and prostitutes on the street off the local gangers.

However, the narcotics trade is HUGE. Like.. MASSIVE. It's 1930's china in size. It's bigger than the total earnings of the government. It cannot operate in the corporate concessions and the A zones because the police are all over it like a rash (you can literally get 10 importing cocaine convictions for walking down the street in the concessions), so people from here take their money with them and go over the boarder to buy it.

[Cthulhudreams]

Mogadishu is quite a lot worse than what's written up about the Barrens in Shadowrun. To be honest, I've lived in neighborhoods in America with random outbreaks of gunfire and police raids that amount to "just shoot[ing] up some houses."

well, it's got warlords, drug problems and arms markets too, not sure what the difference is.

And A zones are the only places one could go to get money?

How do the SINless survive in your game?

Okay, large scale argiculture is really difficult in the 6th world, because if you try and herd some cattle, you'll eventually have calves that breath fire and/or turn people to stone, which is an issue for you the farmer.Which is why everything is made from soy. But as agriculture has many of the same problems, I just assume people grow stuff in vats. So most people exist eating vat food, which is actually pretty cheap.

Power sats are referenced in the books, and I have them as cannon - people steal power off the relatively prolific power sats. No-one notices/cares because there is overcapacity and no batteries.

Secondly, productivity will continue its march onwards. as a result, staples can be made pretty cheaply.

The CBD of most cities is the corporate concessions.

Then there is a huge belt of people who do the various engineering and technical jobs required to make mechanization work. IQs have been going up for quite some time, and by 2070, the average IQ of the UK will have moved to 125 or so from 100. Education will be extensive as anything less than 17 years of schooling can be replaced by drones, so most people will have masters degrees. This is the shiny happy future!

Outside of them is the C zones then the barrens. There is a very stark line of 'do you have a masters degree or not' People out here do not, and as such what these people do is have a services job, prostitution, arms dealing or deal drugs. You can scrape by on very low incomes. The barrens are Mogadishu. The cops don't go there... ever, and you can buy guns, cocaine and prostitutes on the street off the local gangers. Ther eis also lots of small manufacturing business, food stands, all sorts of stuff slum style because Renraku cannot operate out here - the local gangers cut their teeth throwing flaming trash cans through Renraku's shopfronts in the A zones.

However, the narcotics trade is HUGE. Like.. MASSIVE. It's 1930's china in size. It's bigger than the total earnings of the US government. It cannot operate in the corporate concessions and the A zones because the police are all over it like a rash (you can literally get 10 importing cocaine convictions for walking down the street in the concessions), so people from here take their money with them and go over the boarder to buy it.

[Saint Sithney]

Backing the discussion up to education again, I want to take a moment to look at it from the corporation side of things.

A guard is a citizen of the corporation. Born into a family of guards, probably a 3rd generation if human. Quite possibly from a military or police family, historically. He was raised in corp schools to be a corp guard. He was taught everything they wanted him to know and nothing more. Of the things they spent a good deal of time drilling into his skull are included a strong fear of the world outside, suspicion of other corps and fidelity to the corporation which has raised and housed him since his birth. The fear of being cut off from his known world, exiled to the streets/barrens as a penniless, non-person is probably a fate worse than death to him. And that's exactly what would be done to him if he showed any indication where he might "defect" to some other security job. And, if he did try and join up with another outfit, he wouldn't make it in the door. They wouldn't trust him. They might take him on after extensive brainwashing, but that's the same kind of expense as grabbing a ganger off the street and putting him through the wringer. Who would sign up for that expecting "a better life" out of the deal?

As to the personal cost of housing the guard, all the overhead would be paid for by the corp. His food costs would be at or near cost of production. Same as his housing, entertainment, and, well, security. I envision them living on-site in dormitory style apartments, fully subsidized by their employers. I don't see them giving much thought to retirement, and if they do retire, I imagine the corp just scooping all their assets and leaving them dead in a ditch, discarded like a spent shell.

[Cthulhudreams]

Don't you see how that is totally non functional? YOU are the security guards! YOU KNOW what is going to happen at 55, because YOU do it to everyone else. YOU are the one who liquidates people!

That precludes generational guards - because that means you stole your dad's stuff and kicked him out, and it;s going to happen to you. So why wouldn't YOU at 50 steal everyone's shit and scamper for the hills?

Why the hell would you wait for it to happen to you? You may as well start theft straight up. Need to steal enough stuff to provide for retirement.

You would have the worst 'guarding' ever seen in human history.

[Saint Sithney]

Don't you see how that is totally non functional? YOU are the security guards! YOU KNOW what is going to happen at 55, because YOU do it to everyone else. YOU are the one who liquidates people!

That's assuming only one level of security. Only the corporate inner circle would have any idea about what happens to assets put out to pasture. That's some basic information control. Maybe they hire outside operators like shadowrunning scum to handle that side of things. Just a group of guys who get a name and location, then, *spack* brains on walls. Easy money. Their murders would do well to motivate people to stay on if really looked into what happened after someone leaves the safety of the enclave. Couple months in the mean world and they get torn up by gangers and thugs.
You don't actually imagine that these places would let people retire with heads full of privileged info, right? 35 years of intimate knowledge with their security apparatus isn't something they want out in the world. I see it sort of like that show The Prisoner. Anyone with any real value gets shipped away to a retirement home they can never leave, but, if they already know everything you know, you just get offed.

[kzt]

If you know that at 50 you'll be kicked out penniless on the street the smart people will start to figure out that they should find some of those shadow runners and come to an arrangement... He knows when and where the good stuff is and how it's secured. All he needs are some associates with guns.

[kzt]

That's assuming only one level of security. Only the corporate inner circle would have any idea about what happens to assets put out to pasture. That's some basic information control.

You're talking about a company that employees 40 million people. It's the size of the US government. Think about that. You think ugly things don't leak out? How many people are going to have to know about this?

[Saint Sithney]

If you know that at 50 you'll be kicked out penniless on the street the smart people will start to figure out that they should find some of those shadow runners and come to an arrangement... He knows when and where the good stuff is and how it's secured. All he needs are some associates with guns.

Yeah, a smart/ plugged-in guy like corp spider or rigger nearing the age of retirement may try to find a way to convert all his corp script into a more fluid capital and organize his own extraction. Burn out of there before the Logan's Run squad shows up to lock him in the retirement castle. Sounds like a good run concept to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

That's assuming only one level of security. Only the corporate inner circle would have any idea about what happens to assets put out to pasture.

Dude, don't you think that people might want to find out where their dad is? I mean, he was here literally last week, and now he isn't. We didn't have a funeral.... People are totally going to notice that their relatives disappear at age 55, and that there are literally no Ares employees in the world over age 55.

That's assuming only one level of security. Only the corporate inner circle would have any idea about what happens to assets put out to pasture. That's some basic information control. Maybe they hire outside operators like shadowrunning scum to handle that side of things. Just a group of guys who get a name and location, then, *spack* brains on walls. Easy money. Their murders would do well to motivate people to stay on if really looked into what happened after someone leaves the safety of the enclave. Couple months in the mean world and they get torn up by gangers and thugs.

Plus, the corporate inner circle has to liquidate every janitor and whatever else. Don't you think an operation that kills 27 thousand people a WEEK is going to draw some attention. Don't you think that killing 27 THOUSAND people a week is going to draw some attention? Don't you think the people that kill 27 THOUSAND people a week are actually going notice that their co-workers disappear at age 55? Don't you think they are going to get really pissy?

You're actually running an operation that is generating as many kills as the holocaust!

[Saint Sithney]

Meh. One enclave has about 300k resident citizens. We're looking at a few thousand "explained" disappearances and deaths per site per year. I don't see family units as being that tight anyway. Kids are raised in boarding programs from age 5 upwards. I also wouldn't expect retirement age to be a mandatory deadline across the board, and if we're extrapolating retirement age from what we see today, I'd put the average age somewhere in the 70s for most employees. You keep them on a farm somewhere and drug them to senility and death. Guys like guards would retire considerably earlier, but they'd also likely see upwards promotion to more and more elite units, until they end up in one of the elite units chosen to compete in the Desert Wars. Right there you've got the perfect retirement package. Death games in a radioactive wasteland. You want to talk about job satisfaction? Desert. Wars. "You've just been chosen to fight and die for sport. Good luck!" Wait, who would want that job?