How is rigging a motorcycle in VR possible? Options

[Jaid]

IE: I put forward the argument that any motorcycle which is going to be rigged REQUIRES having a rigger adaptation to control. Said rigger adaptaion probably includes things like gecko tips on the seat or the like to hold the rider in place (or flat across the top while in full VR). It makes sense... autopilot can't turn the front fork w/o some kind of special motors/hydraulics added, as represented by the rigger adaptaion. (by extension, means you couldn't offensively hack a go gangers bike if he was chasing you either, except to shut down silly stuff like gridguide).

all vehicles need rigger adaptation to be rigged. there is nothing special about motorcycles in that regard.

i do agree with the rest of your point though (that in the case of a motorcycle, rigger adaptation will include something to keep you attached)

[Paul]

Haven't you heard? It's the future! Get your handwavium ready!

[OneTrikPony]

of course you can turn the RAS over ride off. Dream Chippers do it all the time. Then they walk into traffic.

So if you turn off your RAS over ride to be able to knee into turns or shift forward to keep the front wheel on the ground or perhapse keep the handle bars out of your crotch when you break could you do something like draw a pistol and shoot it with a smartlink? You have full control of your body so without the RAS over ride you should be able to take physical actions as well as matrix actions right?

Since your basically physicaly rideing the bike with a really cool AR HUD and DNI access to the throttle should you use your physical initiative or your matrix initiative?

But, isn't VR 'full sensory imersion'? even with the RAS over ride off how do you get any signals from your inner ear? If you're in VR how do you even know where your body is or what it's doing?

The gyroscope sounds like it should fix all this just fine but could the Less-Physics-Challenged-Than-OTP do a couple napkin calculations on;

A: how hugely massive the gyroscope would have to be to produce the forces that a 70Kg rider must make inorder to ride a bike?

B: how immensely fast a 10kg. gyroscope would have to accelerate to produce those same requisite forces.
(dont forget to include the 70kg. of dead weight that's moving the center of gravity up about 40cm.)
(Please also consider the extreme physical demands of the Dirt bike because in SRTheory those can be gyro'ed and rigged too.)

C: please calculate the exact amount of awesome fun the character will have when he has to lay-it-over in an intersection while his ass is geko taped to the seat and his hands and feet are clamped onto the bike.
(Scooby Snack to the first Dumpshocker to suggest the Ejection Seat as a solution to this problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

[3278]

I would certainly rule that rigging [in full VR] a motorcycle requires Gyro Stabilization, based only on logic, not on the rules-as-written. As OneTrikPony points out, it must be a pretty serious gyro, but not impossibly so...unless you're a troll, but the rules of physics only apply to trolls on SR's best days.

[LurkerOutThere]

Really you want to insist on a setting that has FLYING GREAT DRAGONS and a plethora of VTOL aircraft and shipping dirigables to obey physics because you don't like people in full VR riding motorbikes?

Really is this the place your going to pitch your tent for realism in this setting of all things. A setting which has never for any moment pretended to obey anything other then the rule of cool?

A: how hugely massive the gyroscope would have to be to produce the forces that a 70Kg rider must make inorder to ride a bike?

B: how immensely fast a 10kg. gyroscope would have to accelerate to produce those same requisite forces.
(dont forget to include the 70kg. of dead weight that's moving the center of gravity up about 40cm.)
(Please also consider the extreme physical demands of the Dirt bike because in SRTheory those can be gyro'ed and rigged too.)

C: please calculate the exact amount of awesome fun the character will have when he has to lay-it-over in an intersection while his ass is geko taped to the seat and his hands and feet are clamped onto the bike.
(Scooby Snack to the first Dumpshocker to suggest the Ejection Seat as a solution to this problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

[3278]

Really you want to insist on a setting that has FLYING GREAT DRAGONS and a plethora of VTOL aircraft and shipping dirigables to obey physics because you don't like people in full VR riding motorbikes?

Neither VTOLs nor shipping dirigibles violate the laws of physics, and while flying Great Dragons violate the rules of physics as we know them, they certainly don't violate the internal consistency of the Shadowrun physics, which include magic.

Really is this the place your going to pitch your tent for realism in this setting of all things. A setting which has never for any moment pretended to obey anything other then the rule of cool?

I pitch my tent for realism over the whole game, keeping in mind the variations between its physics [which include magic, and certain technological breakthroughs] and ours. In my opinion, Shadowrun has always at the very least paid lip service to realism [at the very, very least, internal consistency] and for those of us who favor realistic games - not "real," but "realistic" - this conversation is an aid toward that end.

[OneTrikPony]

Really ...?

Really ...?

Yep.

Really.

I have pitched a tent for internal consitency.

I have pitched a tent for rules that don't contradict the setting.

I have pitched a tent for role playing. None of my characters believe that it's a great idea to ride a cycle while they're physically incapacitated.

I have pitched a tent for people who find "coolness factor" the primary draw of roleplaying in a distopian setting. (Those people are just Dead SEXY!)

[Muspellsheimr]

IE: I put forward the argument that any motorcycle which is going to be rigged REQUIRES having a rigger adaptation to control. Said rigger adaptaion probably includes things like gecko tips on the seat or the like to hold the rider in place (or flat across the top while in full VR). It makes sense... autopilot can't turn the front fork w/o some kind of special motors/hydraulics added, as represented by the rigger adaptaion. (by extension, means you couldn't offensively hack a go gangers bike if he was chasing you either, except to shut down silly stuff like gridguide).

As pointed out earlier, any vehicle that is going to be rigged requires a Rigger Adaptation.

That being said, I think you might be interested in the following:

Note that motorcycles are not capable of driving themselves
unless they have the gyro stabilization modification (p.140).

[hobgoblin]

when rigging, the person "becomes" the vehicle...

when riding a motorcycle, the driver and the vehicle is one to a much greater degree then when driving a car or similar, in that shifting body weight alone accounts for a lot.

in essence, it should not be difficult for the rigger control system, when used for motorcycles, to make it feel like one is running, maybe on all four but still, and so allowing the leaning signals for turning to be passed on to the body, while at the same time introducing a sense of falling if the body is close to slipping of the vehicle.

all in all, dont fret the details, but just say that the stuff is advanced enough that it works...

[Nimblegrund]

From what I have read, yes, when in full VR you have no control over your meat body due to safeties in the software. A hacker CAN remove these safeties, but the result would be dangerous and would almost assuredly result in falling off the bike, due to your flailing about.

Whether this means that he can keep his balance while out is a question for your GM, though I would say no... you probably couldn't hold yourself up on the handlebars any more than you could hold onto the steering wheel while out in a different sort of vehicle.

One option might be a bike with a different design. Rather than leaning forward, it could be designed so the rider can rest his chest on the machine, tron style, with his elbows tucked into the machine.

Though personally I kind of like the sidecar idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hobgoblin]

or how about recumbent?

http://www.suzukicycles.org/Concept-Suzuki/G-Strider.shtml

http://matus1976.com/akira_bike/welcome.htm

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2009/...ctric_form.html

[Stahlseele]

Or think the Akira Bike here.

[Degausser]

It mentions in the book (4th ed, not 4a) that you can turn off the "limp body override thing" and flail about in VR. It also says that you can "Shift" your perception back to the real world whilst in VR, but you take massive penalties. Both of these combined would, I would say, allow you to control and rig your bike.

Alternatly, just have a special thing that turns off your "limp body thing" (RAS I think it's called) and have your VR setup so that you are riding a VR bike just like the real one. That way your body will lean at the appropriate times and you'll be fine.

[hobgoblin]

Or think the Akira Bike here.

my second link is to someone building a real life version (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hobgoblin]

btw, here are leaning trikes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/06/...nt-application/

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2008/09/...4l-leaning.html

and there is even a crazy brit working a leaning quad:

http://www.gizmag.com/4mc-test-ride/12095/ (site may have problems)

[Ascalaphus]

What about treating motorcycle and body as one integrated unit? Basically not just rigging the morotcycle, but your own body as well? I'd use something like the following rules:

* You need to have skillwires
* Special software; maybe a Pilot for your own body
* You use skillsofts for every test your body makes, not your normal skills (because you're essentially treating your body as something foreign)
* You need sensors; either stuff like cybereyes or a cam on your bike (likely both), because you ignore normal physical imput
* You treat the bike and your body as a single drone (with stats derived somehow)

Treating your own body as a drone should seriously scare any wizard friends you still have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[hobgoblin]

meh, go jarhead and be the bike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

hey, can one give the bike arms and walker, and make it transformable? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

edit: bah, never mind. Its a full drive replacement, not a addon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Sponge]

It isn't like you relax completely and flop onto the ground every time you jump into VR

Yes, it really is like that.

It mentions in the book (4th ed, not 4a) that you can turn off the "limp body override thing" and flail about in VR. It also says that you can "Shift" your perception back to the real world whilst in VR, but you take massive penalties. Both of these combined would, I would say, allow you to control and rig your bike.

The whole concept of VR is that the DNI intercepts & interprets the normal signals your brain sends to your body and muscles and uses them to drive software instead. You do stuff in VR by being your icon and interacting "physically" with your virtual surroundings. You CAN turn off the RAS which is blocking your brain's signals to the rest of your body, but that means that whenever your icon moves its hand (or whatever translates to its hand) to touch something in VR, your meatspace body is also moving its hand. Unless ALL you're doing is driving that motorcycle, and taking no other actions in VR, turning off the RAS will cause problems. Imagine trying to engage in cybercombat while riding a motorcycle with RAS disabled....

[Ravor]

Of course to be fair, rigging a car while engaging in cybercombat or other "deckerish things" doesn't really sound all that safe either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Sponge]

Of course to be fair, rigging a car while engaging in cybercombat or other "deckerish things" doesn't really sound all that safe either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

True enough, but you're unlikely to fall out of the car if you disable RAS while you're doing it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ravor]

At least until you manage to hit the manual drive switch and swerve into a powerpole or building. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Falconer]

all vehicles need rigger adaptation to be rigged. there is nothing special about motorcycles in that regard.

i do agree with the rest of your point though (that in the case of a motorcycle, rigger adaptation will include something to keep you attached)

I stopped following the thread after posting this, but this was a poor word choice on my part. Not rigging, but controlling it via VR in any way (command, jumping into... etc.)

Motorcycles have manual control override ONLY. Hence, no servos for the computer to drive the vehicle like say a westwind eurocar. If the autopilot can't drive it... someone in VR couldn't either. VR != rigging necessarily... he could be using a command program.


Also while people talk about disconnecting the safeties and controlling their bodies normally. (no your body does not count as a drone... excluding some technomancer wierdness in a grey area of the rules). It's a -6 penalty just to sense what's happening in the real world... what's the distraction penalty for trying to control both real world AND VR at the same time... it'd probably wipe out any bonuses whatsoever you'd get from hotsim and a rigging module.

Not to mention the other problems others have raised of... how exactly do you control your icon w/ your RAS off... you lose the benefit of going full VR in the first place (more natural control of your virtual presence).

[OneTrikPony]

Yep. What falconer said.

People should just be happy with having an AR connection to the bike while actually rideing It's a very physical skill that would benefit little from VR control. The easiest way to get the benefits of a control rig on a motorcycle is to get WIRED REFLEXES.