[Shadowrun 1e] A trip down Memory Lane Options

[Joe Chummer]

I might be in the minority here, but hear me out.

I LOVE Shadowrun.

I've loved it ever since my best chummer came home from Atlanta with his cousin's SR2 book back when we were in early high school. Within weeks he had his own copy, and I bought myself one just so I wouldn't have to keep borrowing it. I got my little brother into it, got other friends into it who moved away and became pen-and-paper RPG mavens amongst their new peers. I've read as many of the novels as I could get my hands on, and the total amount of SR books I've kept in my closet dwarfs the combined total of all other RPG books I own. I bought a ton of the SR card game. I even bought a good many of the Shadowrun Duels action figures. I've played through both the Genesis and SNES games multiple times, and -- I'll just admit it -- I even broke down and bought the XBox game just cos I needed a fix (albeit a warped and mishandled one).

So it goes to show that SR is a foundation of who I am as a gamer, as a roleplayer, heck, even who I am as a person in many ways (my Dumpshock handle I've used as my moniker for 12 years, and I even wrote a novel based in Seattle, in a less-cyberpunk-y vein, but still very SR-inpsired).

Some part of me died when FASA closed its doors, but I got over it when I learned their games would continue in the form of FanPro and later CGL.

Now imagine my surprise when SR4 was announced. There were no more deckers. The Matrix was wireless. Everything was different. I didn't immediately go and hug my well-used SR2 book, but I kinda wanted to. So I didn't even bother buying 4th edition. I felt like I had been jilted at the altar, with no good explanation.

When GenCon came around this year, I made it a point to pick up two pre-releases at the CGL booth: the 25th anniversary Battletech art/fiction book (another of my old loves) and the 20th Anniversary edition of Shadowrun. I didn't really care if it was 4th edition or not. I wanted it for the anniversary factor. I wanted it as a link to something I enjoyed so much when I was younger.

And then I started reading the book, cover to cover. Everything made complete sense to me. Sure, the mechanics were different, but the dice rolling method still felt like SR. The covert ops, the cyberware, the Matrix, the Magic -- everything important was still there. I enjoyed reading the rules and the fiction to the point that I neither noticed nor cared that there was a de-emphasis on the pink mohawk cyberpunk feel.

Which makes sense, if you think about it. Shadowrun is what you make it. If you want to play your SR world as slick covert operatives with little or no cyber and a spit-polished mage for support, go for it. If you want to play your SR world as pink-mohawk-cyberpunk with characters in tribal-fringe fashion and Amerindian shamans on your team, then go for it. If you want to call your computer specialists "deckers" rather than "hackers," then by all means do so (and I'm pretty sure someone out there has already come up with SR4-compatible wired/VR-only Matrix rules to simulate the 2050-2064 era).

The thing you have to remember is the Shadowrun books, no matter what edition they are, are meant as springboards for the imagination. Something about the world you don't like? Change it; make a house rule. You want Dunky to be alive and President of the UCAS in your world? Change it; nix the whole Dragonheart saga entirely if you want. I assure you that CGL and the ghosts of FASA won't care.

[Paul]

Often in threads like these people mistake criticism for a lack of fun. Just because you demand a quality product doesn't automatically equate to a lack of fun, or an inflexibility during play. I pay a lot of good money for Shadowrun products, like anything else I invest my time, money and emotion into of course I'll demand the best I can get for my money.

[Joe Chummer]

Mess with Laubenstein and you get a broken nose.

Heck, everyone in his art did.

BlueMax

I would like to say, there have been a lot of good artists in SR's history, and Laubenstein's work managed to capture the spirit of SR for me, especially its satiric nature. I mean, on one hand you have stores like McHughs and Lordstroms (among others), which are obviously jokes on real-world companies, and on the other you have trolls and orks, which can be inherently comedic, depending on how they're drawn. Mix the two and you feels and have a piece of Jeff Laubenstein art.

Laubenstein also was instrumental in capturing the zeitgeist of Earthdawn for me as well, but that's another matter entirely. The only place I felt his work didn't seem to mesh well was with Battletech. Jeff's art is just far too organic to work in a world of straight lines.

[Ayeohx]

I prefer the dark and gritty. Laubenstein was fine when the artwork was balanced. I suppose I should blame Bradstreet for becoming too expensive.

And no Joe, you're not a minority. Well, you're not alone, at least. I don't agree with the idea "Just change it if it doesn't work for you" though. There is a collective experience that we have when we enjoy a product. If what you loved is no longer what it was you have less to relate to others with. So it basically becomes "Change with the System or be Forgotten". I suppose a decent analogy for some of us older folks that can't understand why the younguns sag their pants and wear their hats sideways. Little bastards. And even more to the extreme are our grandparents who will only listen to Bing Crosby and the Ink Spots and who still think Elvis was the devil. Their friends dwindle away and they have less to communicate to others about. Man, I always like to end on a happy note.

[Joe Chummer]

I prefer the dark and gritty. Laubenstein was fine when the artwork was balanced. I suppose I should blame Bradstreet for becoming too expensive.

And no Joe, you're not a minority. Well, you're not alone, at least. I don't agree with the idea "Just change it if it doesn't work for you" though. There is a collective experience that we have when we enjoy a product. If what you loved is no longer what it was you have less to relate to others with. So it basically becomes "Change with the System or be Forgotten". I suppose a decent analogy for some of us older folks that can't understand why the younguns sag their pants and wear their hats sideways. Little bastards. And even more to the extreme are our grandparents who will only listen to Bing Crosby and the Ink Spots and who still think Elvis was the devil. Their friends dwindle away and they have less to communicate to others about. Man, I always like to end on a happy note.

That's all fine and good until the games you run end up becoming diametrically opposed to the revealed metaplot. Like, for example, say you were running a campaign wherein Dunky was one of your principal NPCs, and he's important to your story, and you had several (fictional in-game) years worth of runs that involved him or his influence.

Then you hear this news about how Big D was assassinated. Do you let this derail your plans and scrap your entire campaign? Or do you fudge the story to go where you wanted it to go in the first place (barring any PC "interventions" of course)?

If you think about it, no one's SR campaigns are canon except to the group that plays them. Even the published adventures that are considered metaplot canon (such as the Arcology Shutdown) can end up being played out in a way that doesn't mesh with the metaplot result and are thus rendered non-canonical. So if your game isn't canon anyway, why feel you are obligated to adhere to a piece of metaplot canon you don't agree with?

Sure, SR is a shared experience amongst players, but I can guarantee you that no two groups of SR players play the same kind of game, regardless of what edition they are using, how old they are, or how long they've been playing.

As I said, Shadowrun is what you make it. The rulebooks, sourcebooks, fiction, and metaplot are just launchpads from which to fire your rocket.

And there's absolutely nothing forcing you to change. Seems to me there are a ton of people on this board that still swear by SR2 or SR3 and have absolutely no interest in upgrading (or downgrading, depending on whom you ask) to SR4. And that's fine. No one is twisting your arm to go out and by SR4. To me SR4 seems more geared towards people who either have never played SR before or towards older, jaded players who hadn't played SR in a long time. If SR2 and the 2050-2064 era work for you, then run with it.

[Ayeohx]

Go ask the folks from Shadowlands what they think about 4th edition. There's a wonderful sense of betrayal and loss when something is taken from you and warped into a form that you don't agree with. You've even felt it according to what you've mentioned in your post above.

I thing the biggest problem with changes to things that you love is that new information is no longer being specifically written for you; you are no longer the target audience. That's what's painful. I'd wager that most of the folks playing 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun with settings in 2050 didn't care much when any of the new books came out. Now if their editions were receiving some new material they'd probably be overjoyed (well, probably highly suspicious, but still curious).

[Joe Chummer]

Go ask the folks from Shadowlands what they think about 4th edition. There's a wonderful sense of betrayal and loss when something is taken from you and warped into a form that you don't agree with. You've even felt it according to what you've mentioned in your post above.

I thing the biggest problem with changes to things that you love is that new information is no longer being specifically written for you; you are no longer the target audience. That's what's painful. I'd wager that most of the folks playing 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun with settings in 2050 didn't care much when any of the new books came out. Now if their editions were receiving some new material they'd probably be overjoyed (well, probably highly suspicious, but still curious).

I guess that's what I meant about being in the minority. I don't feel like SR4 warped the game into something I disagree with. I feel it is a natural progression, a mutation that is beneficial rather than an evolutionary dead end that needs pruning from SR's genetic tree.

One thing I always appreciated about the FASA stable of games (SR, Battletech, Earthdawn) is that time in them was never stagnant. For example, over the years, Battletech has compiled a long and sordid history. The in-game year I first started playing (15+ years ago) was 3025; now it hovers in the 3070s (although canonized history goes beyond that, current source books are dated for around this time). In that huge span, I've seen a lot happen across the galaxy. Whole factions have disappeared, others arose from their ashes; favored characters were killed. Stuff happens. The world grows and ages along with you, and to me, even when at some primal level I'd like the universe to remain the same, that the game changes makes it feel even that much more like a living, organic thing, not just some words in a book. And yet, there are clearly delineated eras in the Battletech books that allow you to play a game in just about any era. So why should a similar approach to Shadowrun be any different?

[Jeffrey Webb]

And yet, there are clearly delineated eras in the Battletech books that allow you to play a game in just about any era. So why should a similar approach to Shadowrun be any different?

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

Fluff-wise, it would give us 50's players a new book to refer our fellow die rollers to, and have a nice book matching with the other new books with modern production values.

Rules-wise, we'd have rules for good old Decking again, and maybe even the entertainment industry rules updated from Shadowbeat. In both cases, the mechanics aren't cut-and-dried for conversaion. Decking had variable target numbers AND a threshold of successes, which makes it a little more complicated to try and equate it over to the new system. The music rules made use of the 'open test', which kept track of the highest Success roll as well as the number of successes. Once again, difficult to write a conversion for. A new set of rules written and playtested by the folks in charge to ensure they're not broken.

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

[Synner667]

Good idea !!

I think the success of the various World of Darkness and Call of Cthulhu variants show how well this can work.

But like reprinting old source books and old scenarios, the powers-that-be at Catalyst will reject almost guaranteed revenue streams in favour of new source material and whatever else they decide we want - ignoring the fans.

[BlueMax]

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

Jeffery Webb -- please forgive the partial quoting if I missed some points.


I don't want them to roll things back, quite to the contrary. Its time to Roll things forward again. Create a unique world, not merely a parallel of today with some new technology and weak magical impact (the new magical critters are tissue strength). Who is our new magical super power? Who are our new celebs? Our new rock bands? Where are my Fragging Desert wars?

Make it unique and run with it Catalyst. If its not unique, even I have trouble remembering it or pushing it.

BlueMax

[ravensmuse]

Sweet jesus, this thread. It's like hanging out on Dragonsfoot all over again.

Catalyst doesn't hate your money. In fact, Catalyst doesn't hate YOU. You in particular. Yes, you. They would love to give you guys support in any way that they can - if you're looking forward for grognardy goodies, just wait for 6th World Almanac, from what I'm hearing - but the problem, as always, comes from the cost of things.

Yes, it would be wonderful for them to print support for campaigns running in the 50s or 60s. There were some interesting things going on in there, and I, for one, would love to see some more Bug City era support. But things like that take time and money, both of which are finite resources, especially for a small company like Catalyst (when in comparison to say, WotC or even White Wolf. I'd wager they're in the second tier by now, with BT, Eclipse Phase, and Cthulhutech. But I'm rambling). Those resources are better put towards things that are making them the most money now, like new SR material and other material for those other CGL properties. Even putting out pdfs, while cheaper, take time and money to produce and pull people away from current projects that serve as the bread n' butter of the company.

Secondly, and no offense here guys, but this really does sound like a bunch of complaining about the good old days, when things were awesome and golden guitar gods played wacked out solos while unicorns and dragons fought to the death behind them. Times have changed, and things have moved on. As we were discussing in another thread, cyberpunk is essentially dead in the water. The cultural basis that was there for it is gone; it's hard to rant on about the horrors of technology when it's making us younger, healthier, and it's providing instant entertainment at your beck and call. Japan is actually one of our buddies now. I don't know if there was a strong native american basis behind it, but we're a whole lot greener and trying to be better to our fellow man in the year 2009. The corps are still the corps, but they're being better watched after a period of naked greed that existed in the previous presidency.

And besides, technology forever marches forward. I have an ipod charging in the computer I'm typing this post up on right now that can do things that my old discman could never do - and its at least three generations old by this point. The future is now, and now we're trying to figure out what the future holds next. No one knows this yet - someone, same thread - was talking about how most cyber fiction nowadays is placed after the Singularity, when Men and Computers became one. We don't know what that period was like because we have no anchors to give us a good picture, because we're screaming right towards it.

And yeah, Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley were great innovators with imaginitive minds, but they're gone now. Dowd isn't working in the biz any more and Findley is dead. People like them were rare and unique and it's hard to replace them. IMO, I think that Wizkids / Fanpro / Catalyst has done a fine job of perserving their spirits and moving the game forward - remember, 3rd edition gave us things like SURGE, Ghostwalker, Deus and the Arcology, expanded info on the great dragons, the SOTA books, the Shedim, the IUM..I mean, maybe it's not to your preference, but I'd say out of that list, we're doing pretty good. 4e has been slow on the metaplot updates, but sometimes it takes time to lay out the groundwork for what's going to happen next. Emergence was a pretty good boo, and all of the corebooks have at least introduced some interesting things to add to the Sixth World tapestry...

I guess where I'm going with this is that its hard to listen to you guys talk and not hear "They Changed It, Now It Sucks", mixed in with the usual entitlement plagued, "the developers hate us and don't want our money!" No one hates you, no one hates that you play a previous edition, we just play our own games and move on with life. There is no large conspiracy out there to minimize you or cut you off from the rest of the herd; we're all Shadowrun fans here. It's just that some of us move with the books and have no complaints, and some people don't. It's as simple as that.

It's just a game people.

[3278]

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

This would fit well in a book covering variant campaigns, such as DocWagon, mercenaries, pirates, corporate security, and so on.

[tete]

Traditionally 4e is the biggest change to the rules (look at GURPS! huge change by GURPS standards)
Catalyst doesn't hate anyone but they and White-Wolf cant afford to print the old stuff for the few people who would buy an older edition.
Fortuantly there is drivethrurpg and others that allows you to get some of the old stuff digitally and you can put it on a kindle or a nook if you want to read it on the bus without a laptop.
Soon POD will be available on drivethru, this is going to be a big change in the RPG industry as now sticking with your favorite edition will be a very possible option.
The big question is what will this mean for new editions and FLGS. Only time will tell.

I am also like joe chummer except as much as I want to like 4e it just never works out. Its not my shadowrun, but I will still continue to buy the 4e books to support shadowrun even if they just gather dust on my shelf.

[Paul]

Catalyst doesn't hate your money. In fact, Catalyst doesn't hate YOU. You in particular. Yes, you. They would love to give you guys support in any way that they can - if you're looking forward for grognardy goodies, just wait for 6th World Almanac, from what I'm hearing - but the problem, as always, comes from the cost of things.

I don't think any one here doesn't realize that cost is a limiting factor. Also I don't think anyone's taking things as serious as you make it sound. I've always wondered why some people can't seem to get on board with allowing constructive criticism. Like you said, it's just a game. Why can't some of us disagree on how it's played, sold, or built?

I don't even think everyone in this thread is saying they don't like all of the changes to the game. In fact most of what I see is some minor disagreements on a few points. If the community can't tolerate dissent, no matter how large or small it's not much of a community. I personally think the community is healthy, and vibrant and can tolerate little dissent here, and there-especially by people looking to spend their hard earned dollars in support of the community.

Just because you don't like every single piece of the game doesn't mean you hate it.

[Joe Chummer]

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

Fluff-wise, it would give us 50's players a new book to refer our fellow die rollers to, and have a nice book matching with the other new books with modern production values.

I don't think it will contain any rules in it, per se, but the forthcoming Shadowrun Almanac should at least sate some of the yearning for a little history.

Also, would it really be that difficult to adapt SR4 house rules to fit a pre-2064 era?

Off the top of my head, here's all you'd really need to change rules-wise, and none of the changes are complicated:

1) Use normal commlink stats for comparable cyberdecks. The Signal stat isn't necessary.
2) All Matrix actions happen in full VR with a datajack or trodes. No AR.
3) Nix wireless communications (except for a sat-link, natch). Most of the wireless advanced rules from Unwired (like creating a cluster from a dozen toasters) are likewise out the window.
4) Don't allow technomancer PCs (although you can fudge the TM rules to allow datajack-using otaku, if you want)
5) Mages can only summon air/water/earth/fire elementals, and shamans can only summon nature, beasts, and Man spirits.

[Paul]

If I were the people at Shadowrun I'd tap the fan base, and get organized proposals for alternate campaigns, and get them posted online. Make them free and reap the benefits. Shadowrun has a great fan base, who are willing to work, and apparently some of you are even technically proficient with machines.

[Platinum]

If I were the people at Shadowrun I'd tap the fan base, and get organized proposals for alternate campaigns, and get them posted online. Make them free and reap the benefits. Shadowrun has a great fan base, who are willing to work, and apparently some of you are even technically proficient with machines.

I would too. Historically the "people at Shadowrun" had their heads too far up their metaplot to consider the idea that other people could produce other materials. And if they got behind their open source fans it might drive new revenue streams. Sure we can post it in some back corner of the web, but Shadowrun has always been sourced from the company. Community projects really died after Gurth and ShadowRN faded.

4e players are like mac users, pay more for an inferior product and feel better about it. That's cool. That's their tribe. I don't hate mac's or 4e, I just don't care about them, or what they do.

I wish that 2nd edition was OGL, so we can make materials for the old stuff. That would give us the best of both worlds I would think.

[Joe Chummer]

4e players are like mac users, pay more for an inferior product and feel better about it. That's cool. That's their tribe. I don't hate macs or 4e, I just don't care about them, or what they do.

You say you don't hate Macs, but the statement "inferior product" clearly shows how you really feel (and thus, by extension, SR4).

I don't own a Mac personally (at least not yet), but I work with them in a professional, IT context every day, both from a hardware AND and a software standpoint. You may not like Macs, but I'll be the first to tell you they are a dream to support (in terms of hardware/software problems), especially vs. the average PC box, and they are much easier to work ON, from a user perspective. I've got users who -- while many are nigh on functionally illiterate when it comes to computers in general -- can fly through things on a Mac with ease, but sit them in front of a Windows box, and they'll be calling me with problems within a half-hour.

I don't expect everyone to like Macs. Just be careful about insulting them without due cause, calling them inferior when they can easily stand on the same shelf next to a Window-based PC. The average person I encounter who gives the finger to Macs has NEVER used them, and you can't debase something truthfully unless you've given it an honest try.

By that extension, you can't call SR4 an inferior product unless you've run its through its paces and you have firm ground to stand on. If exposure doesn't change your initial opinion (and this goes for everything), that's fine, especially if you have reasons to back up your thesis; just don't go around insulting something that other people find legitimate value in it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You say you don't hate Macs, but the statement "inferior product" clearly shows how you really feel (and thus, by extension, SR4).

I don't own a Mac personally (at least not yet), but I work with them in a professional, IT context every day, both from a hardware AND and a software standpoint. You may not like Macs, but I'll be the first to tell you they are a dream to support (in terms of hardware/software problems), especially vs. the average PC box, and they are much easier to work ON, from a user perspective. I've got users who -- while many are nigh on functionally illiterate when it comes to computers in general -- can fly through things on a Mac with ease, but sit them in front of a Windows box, and they'll be calling me with problems within a half-hour.

I don't expect everyone to like Macs. Just be careful about insulting them without due cause, calling them inferior when they can easily stand on the same shelf next to a Window-based PC. The average person I encounter who gives the finger to Macs has NEVER used them, and you can't debase something truthfully unless you've given it an honest try.

By that extension, you can't call SR4 an inferior product unless you've run its through its paces and you have firm ground to stand on. If exposure doesn't change your initial opinion (and this goes for everything), that's fine, especially if you have reasons to back up your thesis; just don't go around insulting something that other people find legitimate value in it.

Ditto Joe Chummer... Good Post... Thanks

Keep the Faith

[ravensmuse]

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better. This is known as Fuck You George Lucas Syndrome.

I don't mind the criticism of 4e. I just find that it's a system that I can finally run for a game I've been a fan of since 2e. Yes, I'll admit some of your words do grate on me, but I also realize I have a low threshold for some things and really try to restrain myself. Like, if you notice, I kept myself pretty calm in my first post in the thread.

I'm eagerly awaiting 6th World Almanac.

[Joe Chummer]

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better. This is known as Fuck You George Lucas Syndrome.

I've honestly never understood FYGL Syndrome. The only questionable things about the SW-prequel trilogy (IMO) were Jar-Jar and some of the acting/script (Ani and Padme in Attack of the Clones, for example), which alone I don't think are enough to cry havoc about. And sure, many fans also decry "midichlorians" as demystifying the Force, but if you think about it, in a world where Force-users around for countless thousands of years (how far into the past of the Original Trilogy was "Knights of the Old Republic," again?), the Jedi would naturally have had time to study and quantify the Force as best they could on a scientific level. Midichlorians might explain why Person A is more Force-sensitive than Person B, but their presence never actually explains HOW or WHY the Force works.

But consider Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Mace Windu, clone troopers, and so on, and man, did Lucas manage to pack a lot of cool stuff in those three movies.

I'm eagerly awaiting 6th World Almanac.

So am I, chummer. So am I.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've honestly never understood FYGL Syndrome. The only questionable things about the SW-prequel trilogy (IMO) were Jar-Jar and some of the acting/script (Ani and Padme in Attack of the Clones, for example), which alone I don't think are enough to cry havoc about. And sure, many fans also decry "midichlorians" as demystifying the Force, but if you think about it, in a world where Force-users around for countless thousands of years (how far into the past of the Original Trilogy was "Knights of the Old Republic," again?), the Jedi would naturally have had time to study and quantify the Force as best they could on a scientific level. Midichlorians might explain why Person A is more Force-sensitive than Person B, but their presence never actually explains HOW or WHY the Force works.

But consider Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Mace Windu, clone troopers, and so on, and man, did Lucas manage to pack a lot of cool stuff in those three movies.

The problem with the Star Wars Sage (and episode 1-3 particularly) was that you knew where the story was going to end up... the vast majority of Star Wars Fans just wanted to see how that story got there... there were no real surprises... This coming from someone whose wife worked for George Lucas for 4+ years... I really liked the saga as a whole... Jar Jar Notwithstanding... he reminded me of the Ewoks... something for the kids so it did not seem as dark as it really was...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[hobgoblin]

OT like no other, but my understanding of those thingies was that they where attracted to people with force potential, not the source.

basically, its like taking a blood sample to look for abnormal amounts of white blood cells when wondering if someone is sick, but with no obvious symptoms.

as for macs, no problem with them, tho i have a problem with apple. That problem is their overly tight control of everything, all in the name of what experience a product should have.

they lock osx to the hardware, go after psystar when psystar is clearly selling to a market that apple is ignoring (the area between a imac and a mac pro), not allowing third party programs on the iphone to run in the background (while clearly the apple supplied media player can) or refusing programs access to the app store for reasons thats on the razors edge of anti-competitive. I am just waiting for them to phase out their imac line in favor of something thats more in line with their iphone offering. A kind of media station if you will, thats not running classical osx, and can only get its apps from the app store. The only products left running osx would be their pro products, just so they do not run afoul their media production customers...

heh, i do wonder if not they make a fine example of how horizon may appear...

[ravensmuse]

Maybe we should move the Star Wars discussion over to general, because while I'm enjoying it, I don't think that's what this thread is about, lol.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to my roleplaying. I like stuff straight from the company, and I'll accept the vast majority of what's published. Some things I may turn my nose at, but I'm a pretty open guy. I'm really leery of using fan generated stuff (he says, being of the people submitting work to Data Haven) because so much of it is poorly balanced, ill thought out, or came about because of a perceived foul against the author's senses.

So I'm not real tolerant of the thought process that obviously fans can do it better. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I dunno. But it's not like CGL is putting out books with steaming piles of poo in-between the pages; the vast majority of the stuff I've bought and looked at, I've really really dug. Like cyborgs and a discussion of transhumanism / transgenderism in Augmentation, or the martial arts in Arsenal, or the new paradigms for magic users in Street Magic, or streams and new sprites for technomancers in Unwired. Hell, I for the most part enjoyed Emergence (there were a few kludgy parts).

So again, I don't know if it's something wrong with me and I'll accept any shit that gets shoveled my way, or that I'm just not that picky when it comes to my material. It's my table. I'll put on it what I want. And for the most part, I'm happy with what Wizkids / Fanpro / CGL has put out in the last few years and haven't been impressed by some of the fan created "solutions" to problems I don't see.

What gets my goat is the entitlement that some fandom feels towards things they're "fans" of, and the abuse they heap on the creators because they're not going with their vision. That's why I wrote my little rant up above.

And now that I've killed half an hour at work :/

ETA: Of course, xkcd had to put this out today, right?

[Paul]

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better.

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.

I just find that it's a system that I can finally run for a game I've been a fan of since 2e.

Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.