[Shadowrun 1e] A trip down Memory Lane Options

[ravensmuse]

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.

You're not being that guy. If you have to make a disclaimer that you're not that guy, then you're not that guy.

I'm all for the balanced approach, and if I didn't agree with you about not everyone being perfect, I wouldn't be writing stuff up for Data Haven. Well I would - I do have an ego to maintain.

I'm just trying to do my part in making this place sound less like Dragonsfoot or some of the other fan run boards that don't know where the line is drawn.

Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.

And I agree with you. But - and again, my experience - is that 2e and even 3e broke my brain, and I could manage DnD 3e (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think it was Caine that said that a big help is the layout of the books, and I agree. It also doesnt hurt that the 4e system is close to the WoD system, which I am intimately familiar with. So.

[Malachi]

I would too. Historically the "people at Shadowrun" had their heads too far up their metaplot to consider the idea that other people could produce other materials. And if they got behind their open source fans it might drive new revenue streams. Sure we can post it in some back corner of the web, but Shadowrun has always been sourced from the company. Community projects really died after Gurth and ShadowRN faded.

Nothing is stopping you from producing fan content right now. Just before Peter Taylor left he was lamenting that there wasn't enough fan-generated content being produced. Heck, Peter got his job because his fan project "EuroSB" became Shadows of Europe. There are ways of promoting your fan material and getting people directed towards it: pay for good web space (not somesite.com/user/free/account/dha737#32_2ahs/index.html), promote your site, post links everywhere, update for new material often. The DDH that Bull has set up even provides a semi "official" way for you to post some of your material. Perhaps everyone goes to the "official" source for Shadowrun material because not many people have made good fan sites with useful material. Sitting back and complaining that CGL has provided no "official" channel for your material sounds to me like the flimsiest of excuses for inaction.

[tete]

Also, would it really be that difficult to adapt SR4 house rules to fit a pre-2064 era?

Depends on how hard core you want to go. If you just want SR4 with the serial numbers filed off its easy. If you want a game where wired owns the battle field and Fuchi electronics is still #1 its way tougher or at leased you are going to make enough changes to the rules/gear to resemble the amount of changes from 3e to 4e. Even the cost of things would have to change. 3e is even a big departure from 2050 play.

[Platinum]

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.

Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.

Go missing in the big city for a few days and then to respond can be tricky so I am grabbing bits and pieces.

As for macs and the rest of the world, I have supported them from an IT side as well, But from the application/system side. The lack of software and application support from vendors is overwhelming, which makes mitigating this gap problematic. They are a nice to work with but you have a hard time getting to enterprise applications to run on them. That is why I think they are not in the same category.

I don't think that I know more than the company, but I do think that the company doesn't know everything, and doesn't always know what's best. I have been gone for a few years. Did that a few times. I guess I am expecting the energy excitement and inclusion that I felt back in the days of Gurth, Robert Hayden, and FASA. Back then it seemed like things were done because it was cool and good for shadowrun, and was not about specific people or money. It entirely could have been, but that was not perceived back then because information flowed differently. Personally I don't know how d20 makes any kind of profit, but I really love the community and material produced. I still think that model for 2e would be great. I dunno about anyone else, but it seems difficult to file the serial numbers off and make shadowrun into something official if it doesn't come from the company producing it. The devs put out a lot of material for their community, ie missions, but I haven't seen a lot of messages that encourage people to create their own flavours of shadowrun for others to share. That is what I think is missing.

I have such great memories playing this game. I know there were critical flaws with the game, but "It is THE game for me" as well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Go missing in the big city for a few days and then to respond can be tricky so I am grabbing bits and pieces.

As for macs and the rest of the world, I have supported them from an IT side as well, But from the application/system side. The lack of software and application support from vendors is overwhelming, which makes mitigating this gap problematic. They are a nice to work with but you have a hard time getting to enterprise applications to run on them. That is why I think they are not in the same category.

I don't think that I know more than the company, but I do think that the company doesn't know everything, and doesn't always know what's best. I have been gone for a few years. Did that a few times. I guess I am expecting the energy excitement and inclusion that I felt back in the days of Gurth, Robert Hayden, and FASA. Back then it seemed like things were done because it was cool and good for shadowrun, and was not about specific people or money. It entirely could have been, but that was not perceived back then because information flowed differently. Personally I don't know how d20 makes any kind of profit, but I really love the community and material produced. I still think that model for 2e would be great. I dunno about anyone else, but it seems difficult to file the serial numbers off and make shadowrun into something official if it doesn't come from the company producing it. The devs put out a lot of material for their community, ie missions, but I haven't seen a lot of messages that encourage people to create their own flavours of shadowrun for others to share. That is what I think is missing.

I have such great memories playing this game. I know there were critical flaws with the game, but "It is THE game for me" as well.

As several people have pointed out, there are a couple of ways to have your personal ideas printed in a semi official format, if nothing else... The Data Haven is a prime place to go looking for an outlet for your creativity, and I seem to remember several other outlets talked about on these forums... sorry that I cannot point you to more locations, but try out the Dumpshock Data Haven, you might like it...

Keep the Faith

[tete]

[edit] post removed for misreading original post

[Platinum]

As several people have pointed out, there are a couple of ways to have your personal ideas printed in a semi official format, if nothing else... The Data Haven is a prime place to go looking for an outlet for your creativity, and I seem to remember several other outlets talked about on these forums... sorry that I cannot point you to more locations, but try out the Dumpshock Data Haven, you might like it...

Keep the Faith

Isn't the DDH publishing stuff for 4th edition? That is the assumption that I drew, based on the fact that it is band new, and Bull's name is on it.

I have done the publish my own content stuff before. I also did a great deal of collecting of ideas here actually. Shut down my domain a long time ago because I didn't think paying for the hosting of a non-official and basically dead site made sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Isn't the DDH publishing stuff for 4th edition? That is the assumption that I drew, based on the fact that it is band new, and Bull's name is on it.

I have done the publish my own content stuff before. I also did a great deal of collecting of ideas here actually. Shut down my domain a long time ago because I didn't think paying for the hosting of a non-official and basically dead site made sense.

I do believe that DDH is for 4th Edition Primarily, but I could be wrong... and Bull's name is on a lot of things I think...

As for self-publishing, there are a lot of free hosting sites that you can take advantage of (probably with your ISP, I get a fairly large chunk of webspace with mine if I wanted it), and if you promote it here on Dumpshock, I am sure that you would probably get a fair amount of traffic to make it viable... several Dumpshockers have their own sites that are functional for Fan-Made Content...

Keep the Faith

[Joe Chummer]

Depends on how hard core you want to go. If you just want SR4 with the serial numbers filed off its easy. If you want a game where wired owns the battle field and Fuchi electronics is still #1 its way tougher or at leased you are going to make enough changes to the rules/gear to resemble the amount of changes from 3e to 4e. Even the cost of things would have to change. 3e is even a big departure from 2050 play.

But technically, aside from the few rules differences I already pointed out, aren't the only real differences between 2070 and 2050 all a matter of fluff? Sure Fuchi doesn't exist in 2070 in the same capacity as it did in 2050, but that's merely a matter of fiction and setting, not a matter of rules. And even if you did need rules for figuring out where Fuchi stands amongst the AAAs, then the asset ratings rules in Corporate Shadowrfiles (an SR2-era book) or Corporate Download(an SR3-era book) should be usable no matter what SR edition you're playing, as they don't rely on any stats or mechanics that are intrinsic to any one particular SR version.

And as far as costs go, if you're using the BP system, the cost of most gear items shouldn't really change things, since the BP cost for money is geared to SR4 prices (in fact, I believe the cost of most vehicles, armor, and weapons haven't changed much over the years). The only thing that might need to be fudged are cyberdeck costs, as there's a big discrepancy between the most powerful cyberdecks of 50s and the most powerful commlinks of the 70s. I mean, keeping super-cheap SR4-analogs of Fairlight Excaliburs out of the hands of street punks is probably a good idea, as far as the common decker-worth-his-salt in the 50s is concerned

[Cryonic]

And as far as costs go, if you're using the BP system, the cost of most gear items shouldn't really change things, since the BP cost for money is geared to SR4 prices (in fact, I believe the cost of most vehicles, armor, and weapons haven't changed much over the years). The only thing that might need to be fudged are cyberdeck costs, as there's a big discrepancy between the most powerful cyberdecks of 50s and the most powerful commlinks of the 70s. I mean, keeping super-cheap SR4-analogs of Fairlight Excaliburs out of the hands of street punks is probably a good idea, as far as the common decker-worth-his-salt in the 50s is concerned

There are some cost differences. Such as Alpha and Beta multipliers, but you are essentially correct about the build systems costs.

[Joe Chummer]

There are some cost differences. Such as Alpha and Beta multipliers, but you are essentially correct about the build systems costs.

True. Been so long since I've played SR2/3 I didn't notice the difference.

I'd also think the Priority or the Karma system of character creation (as outlined in Runner's Companion) would balance the cost as well.

If someone's worried about bankrupting their character at chargen trying to spend BPs for SR4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to purchase a drekhot Fuchi or Fairlight cyberdeck for a 2050-era SR4 campagin, I would suggest maybe not changing the price per se but rather the availability. The actual cost of an expensive 2050's era cyberdeck keeps the pricey SOTA decks out of the hands of the unwashed and unworthy masses, but if a 2050-era cyberdeck-analog of say, a Fairlight Caliban commlink cost the same, you could give the cyberdeck a high availability/legality. Sure you might have the money to buy one, but they're really hard to actually get their hands on (or are considered the province of security/government/law-enforcement deckers and thus illegal without an operator license). If your fixer or local computer shop can't get enough successes to meet the availability threshold you set within X amount of time, then said deck simply isn't in stock anywhere (think the Nintendo Wii shortage that lasted almost a whole year after its launch date).

Or, you could just keep them the cyberdecks the same SR2/3 price and spend all your BP on decks and programs rather than skills, attributes, or other things that help keep you alive (which I wouldn't recommend unless you are making a agoraphobic/shut-in/total-immersion-lifestyle kind of decker).

Or, you could create a cyberdeck with better stats than an (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 8,000 Fairlight Caliban commlink , and charge more for it ie. invent a "Fuchi Firestorm 3XT" (or whatever you want to call it) cyberdeck, with System 6, Response 6, Firewall 6, for, say, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 20,000-50,000.

I hope this makes sense. I haven't had a decent night's sleep in several days.

[tete]

@ Joe

It depends on how hard core you want to be. PCs in 1e/2e/3e could not start with anywhere near the best cyberdeck (that would be 5.5 million nuyen in 2e reduced to 1.5 million in 3e). If I want just some 2050 flavor (racism, no wireless) then your ok with 4e not too much work. If you want magic to be uber rare, high end tech not to be available to PCs cus it costs so much, then this becomes a ton of work. You have to remember in the early years of SR you were only going to start with a upper mid level deck for your priority A. You also had to pick A to be a Metahuman. Cost of things was just plain different so it gave it a different feel. SR3/4 reduced cost in favor of balance. This is not a bad thing, it moved with the plot but... If you want 2050 to really feel like 2050 your going to have to mod your 4e game heavily.

[edit] there is nothing wrong with just filing off the serial numbers and saying good enough either. You just have to find a happy place for your game. For me that means I use 3e with some 4e tweaks. But I am alittle more hard core about my 2050 than others and less hard core than those who would still put up with skill web and spell locks.

[i101]

I have just read thru the thread. I am gonna keep it short and quote the most interesting statements (at least for me).

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

Count me in mate. Even if I doubt that such a book(s) will be ever published.

And besides, technology forever marches forward. I have an ipod charging in the computer I'm typing this post up on right now that can do things that my old discman could never do - and its at least three generations old by this point. The future is now, and now we're trying to figure out what the future holds next. No one knows this yet - someone, same thread - was talking about how most cyber fiction nowadays is placed after the Singularity, when Men and Computers became one. We don't know what that period was like because we have no anchors to give us a good picture, because we're screaming right towards it.

No offense, but what has this to do with Shadowrun? IRL Technology marched forward, and? Who the frag cares? Only because back in the days (1989) people used BTX modems (or whatever) to surf the first the internet, and thesedays you can surf and download thru your iPhone/iPod WiFi, it doesnt mean that this should be of any influence for a RPG. We are talking about a role playing game which has advanced for reasons that have definitely nothing to do with the advances of our IRL. Developers do not only publish new editions for the reason of better rule mechanics, but also for the reason of, guess what, profit. Which is ok, they fund their company thru new products and game lines. Thats the way it is, otherwise they couldnt exist.

..."the developers hate us and don't want our money!" No one hates you, no one hates that you play a previous edition, we just play our own games and move on with life. There is no large conspiracy out there to minimize you or cut you off from the rest of the herd; we're all Shadowrun fans here. It's just that some of us move with the books and have no complaints, and some people don't. It's as simple as that.

It's just a game people.

Yes you are right, it is only a game, therefore I dont understand why you are exaggerating that much? I think that it should be ok for a player to express their point of view on the actuall system. For whatever reasons this may be. Some are whining about new mechanics and how unrelastic some rules are, and others are missing the game falvour of older editions. Although I am no big friend of the whiners, I can feel those people who miss the sr1 spirit.

I am fully aware that you overdid your statement on purpose. But hey, hold your horses. Again, please dont feel offended by me. It is nice to see that there are still some people that would like to play the NEW sr4 mechanics in some older setting, with the possibility to play deckers and riggers, and with possibility I dont mean just to rename commlinks into decks. So instead blowing this thread up, why just dont get together and maybe work on some homebrew stuff?

Nothing is stopping you from producing fan content right now.

RRRIGGGHT! Therefore I would like to suggest to anyone interested, lets join forces and work together on some homebrew sr4 rules, which would allow us to play back in the 50-60ies? Talking about reworking cyberdecks, riggercontrols and so on. The more people the better the output should be.


Cheers.

[Malachi]

No offense, but what has this to do with Shadowrun? IRL Technology marched forward, and? Who the frag cares? Only because back in the days (1989) people used BTX modems (or whatever) to surf the first the internet, and thesedays you can surf and download thru your iPhone/iPod WiFi, it doesnt mean that this should be of any influence for a RPG. We are talking about a role playing game which has advanced for reasons that have definitely nothing to do with the advances of our IRL. Developers do not only publish new editions for the reason of better rule mechanics, but also for the reason of, guess what, profit. Which is ok, they fund their company thru new products and game lines. Thats the way it is, otherwise they couldnt exist.

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does. Many of the changes in SR4 were made (I believe, I don't know for sure) in an attempt to make it appealing for new players and break down barriers of entry. For people unfamiliar with previous versions of Shadowrun, it can be very inhibiting to come to a game that supposedly takes place in the "future" yet has technical capabilities inferior to those we have right now.

Like it or not, I think the focus of SR4 has been to try and bring new players into the game while still trying to please long-time fans of the franchise. It's a tough line to walk.

[nezumi]

@ Joe

It depends on how hard core you want to be. PCs in 1e/2e/3e could not start with anywhere near the best cyberdeck (that would be 5.5 million nuyen in 2e reduced to 1.5 million in 3e

Cyber changed drastically too. Used to be a sammie could spend a cool $1M on gear and still be wanting.

BP costs for metas would have to go yup, plus the random allergies...

[Malachi]

You know, one of the things I picked up on through this thread is the significance of art. Many people sighted the artwork as much or more than the actual content as the biggest factor of things they "miss." I suppose the lesson learned is that the influence art has on a game cannot be underestimated.

[Ayeohx]

You know, one of the things I picked up on through this thread is the significance of art. Many people sighted the artwork as much or more than the actual content as the biggest factor of things they "miss." I suppose the lesson learned is that the influence art has on a game cannot be underestimated.

That's correct Malachi. Art sets the mood for me. If I opened Shadowrun 4th edition and everything was anime I'd, well, beat the hell out of someone for crapping on my game. Seriously. I'm sure some of you get off on anime but I'm a gritty realism guy firmly rooting in the Shadowrun of the Bradstreet Shadowrun days. Laubenstein art still pisses me off. And the pastels that 3rd edition sported about severed my ties with SR. That and the lack of any sort of spirit. All rules and little story content. Impressive rules, still, I'm playing Shadowrun for the vibe. And the story and the art carries that vibe for me.

[Paul]

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does.

I'm not sure that has to be true though Malachi. I get that it generally is, but I'm not sure I agree it has to be. Of course that's not my choice to make. You still haven't answered my question by the way.

[Joe Chummer]

That's correct Malachi. Art sets the mood for me. If I opened Shadowrun 4th edition and everything was anime I'd, well, beat the hell out of someone for crapping on my game. Seriously. I'm sure some of you get off on anime but I'm a gritty realism guy firmly rooting in the Shadowrun of the Bradstreet Shadowrun days. Laubenstein art still pisses me off. And the pastels that 3rd edition sported about severed my ties with SR. That and the lack of any sort of spirit. All rules and little story content. Impressive rules, still, I'm playing Shadowrun for the vibe. And the story and the art carries that vibe for me.

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

[Platinum]

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

I was going through an sr2 manual yesterday looking at her artwork. I didn't like the cross hatching, that would be my only gnit pick, as her work was solid and really gave you a feel for the metas and cyberware.

[Platinum]

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does. Many of the changes in SR4 were made (I believe, I don't know for sure) in an attempt to make it appealing for new players and break down barriers of entry. For people unfamiliar with previous versions of Shadowrun, it can be very inhibiting to come to a game that supposedly takes place in the "future" yet has technical capabilities inferior to those we have right now.

Like it or not, I think the focus of SR4 has been to try and bring new players into the game while still trying to please long-time fans of the franchise. It's a tough line to walk.

I don't really agree with that. There hasn't really been anything invented in the last 10 years that would alter the course of a futuristic game like Shadowrun. The scope of the wireless mesh was a direction set by Rob deliberately. Shadowrun had wireless before that, just not the scale that it was blown up to because of a Metaplot. The environment should have played a bigger part then wireless. My uninformed guess was that Rob wanted to make Shadowrun more like GITS SAC.

[Ayeohx]

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

If Janet Allusio's art looks like Bradstreets, then heck yeah, I'd love it. Especially is it's B&W.

I had quite the anti-anime rant but I've deleted it. I will say that anime is not Shadowrun for me. I cannot take it seriously as an art form. The realism never comes across to me. But that's my feelings on the subject. You're Shadowrun may look like Dominion Tank Police. Or a high school drama like, well, half the anime we get in the US.

For my SR I need realism, black and white, guns, swords, the occasional wit (like Bradstreet's buttons & grafitti) and a feeling that something more is happening in the scene than depicted. The last part of that sentence is a big hitter for me. Remember how many of the pics looked liked something awesome was going on but you weren't sure what exactly? That type of art gets you thinking and for us GMs it really helps.

[Ayeohx]

I was going through an sr2 manual yesterday looking at her artwork. I didn't like the cross hatching, that would be my only gnit pick, as her work was solid and really gave you a feel for the metas and cyberware.

Oh wait... if her's was the art with the insane amount of heavy handed cross hatching then I thought that it was okay, but not as high quality as Bradstreet or Alexander.

[Joe Chummer]

Oh wait... if her's was the art with the insane amount of heavy handed cross hatching then I thought that it was okay, but not as high quality as Bradstreet or Alexander.

Two different art styles, but I think they work. Allusio for the dark, Bradstreet for the grit. Love or hate Allusio's crosshatching, her art reflected SR in the sense that the pieces she did for Earthdawn were much softer and often not even in B/W ink. I always got the sense that Allusio's pieces conveyed (both figuratively and literally) the overall, smoky miasma of darkness and corruption in SR: most of her pieces are dark, misty crowd scenes. Bradstreet's art always went down to the personal level, as (if I recall) there were hardly ever more than 1 or 2 subjects "on camera" at a time. Two different art styles, two different purposes.

Too bad Bradstreet did more Vampire:The Masquerade art than he ever did SR art. If I recall, most of the Bradstreet pieces in SR2 were also from SR1, and after that, he was pretty much done with SR, Ghost only knows why.

My biggest lament with modern SR art isn't how it compares to previous SR art. It's that more often than not you can't tell who did it, due to lack of a legible signature (or sometimes lack of signature at all). For example, there were quite a few non-classical-SR-era pieces in SR4A that I really liked, only I have NO clue who to attribute them to. Same goes for the splatbooks. And also for the Eclipse Phase rulebook. I guess it's not just SR. Catalyst isn't wanting for good artists, but FASA did know how to make it easier to identify who drew what, even if it was a chunky signature that looked like it was drawn by a 5-year-old ("MIKEN" anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

[hobgoblin]

on the topic of art, so far i think one of the best in SR4 is part of emergence.

its the one where you have a girl next to a shop window or something, and the reflection is not matching up.

btw, how many of the artists that worked on earlier SR versions came from a B&W comics background?

and also, how much of the current SR art is delivered as color and then grayscaled, and/or delivered in a vector graphics format (where the computer do the finer points of the shading and curves)?